The most expensive new Holden ever built $197k W427.

[Auslandau]

Originally Posted by bangm001

The FG MKII GTHO (if they ever do it!) will probably be the most expensive new Aussie ford made.. Will that stop some of us for wanting or buying one.. I think not..

If it's the same price as the C'dore I will be more annoyed than anything. Why make a car that you can only wish you could own and at $150,000 will be to much of a pipe dream for most. Make it at least a more realistic price .... say under $99,000 .... that would at least give more of a chance to get into into the mainstream market and not just for the elitist's. A 'hero car' for a manufacturer is great to have ... but if it's so exclusive in number because of price ..... well for me, whats the point?

If it came in at a fair price realistically above the best on offer at the moment, yep I would want one and could possibly hope to buy one, one day ....... but no way for twice the amount of the highest similar model on offer at present. Once these things hit BMW, Audi, Merc etc pricing .... boy there is alot of great choice out there already.



| [/url] |

[Wally]

Originally Posted by auslandau

If it's the same price as the C'dore I will be more annoyed than anything. .........

Well chances are it would be just as pricey. There's quite a bit of design and compliance costs that go into what is basically a jobbing project.

[Falc'man]

Originally Posted by auslandau

If it's the same price as the C'dore I will be more annoyed than anything.

If FPV screw up like HSV did then yes, it would be overpriced.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by Falc'man

If FPV screw up like HSV did then yes, it would be overpriced.

Im not sure how they stuffed up to be honest, ive seen what was involved including some of the costs... i cant see how FPV could do it any differently or cheaply without compromising the result..

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Im not sure how they stuffed up to be honest, ive seen what was involved including some of the costs... i cant see how FPV could do it any differently or cheaply without compromising the result..

Unfortunately if whatever they do people will complain.
Lets say:
Mechanical only changes with a HO badge and sticker package for 100k. 'oh its like the regular gt...its a sticker pack...like the cobra (even if it had a better engine and suspension then the GT's before).

The full hog for 150k. 'oh its too expensive no one will buy it...wah wah wah'.

Besides the 'racing heritage'. What did the HO have over the GT back in the day?

[Auslandau]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Im not sure how they stuffed up to be honest, ive seen what was involved including some of the costs... i cant see how FPV could do it any differently or cheaply without compromising the result..

Possibly, at sometime, they should have just thought .... "What the hell are we doing?" Yep, the GFC was not around when things started but really .... its FORD & GMH we are talking about. What's wrong with making something that isn't so far off the planet that R&D makes it so prohibitive. It doesn't need to be TT with off the wall dyno figures (would be nice ) .... just something quicker that looks damn tough is all that might be required. But it MUST be not exclusive .... or a numbered run.



| [/url] |

[Falc'man]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Im not sure how they stuffed up to be honest, ive seen what was involved including some of the costs... i cant see how FPV could do it any differently or cheaply without compromising the result..

They didn't count on Holden not installing the LS7 on their (Holden's) assembly line; effectively meant they had to take the LS3 out and put the LS7 in themselves. Double-handling, selling the LS3s, and everything else that comes with the job, etc, influenced it's higher than expected price.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by auslandau

Possibly, at sometime, they should have just thought .... "What the hell are we doing?" Yep, the GFC was not around when things started but really .... its FORD & GMH we are talking about. What's wrong with making something that isn't so far off the planet that R&D makes it so prohibitive. It doesn't need to be TT with off the wall dyno figures (would be nice ) .... just something quicker that looks damn tough is all that might be required. But it MUST be not exclusive .... or a numbered run.

They nearly pulled the pin when the sky clouded over but some elements were to far down the track to stop.
I think we are spoilt with the regular product range to be honest, i think its too easy to forget how damn good the current regular FPV and HSV products are.. To bring out something that's significantly better than the rest of the pack like the W427 is costs a packet...
There's the cheap way and the proper way, the "cheaper" VXR SC Clubsport might make pretty dyno numbers but it isnt a patch on the W427as a pure sports/track tool.
Im not sure you could pick a point in price and performance half way between the std range and where the W427 is and please anyone..
Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by Falc'man

They didn't count on Holden not installing the LS7 on their (Holden's) assembly line; effectively meant they had to take the LS3 out and put the LS7 in themselves. Double-handling, selling the LS3s, and everything else that comes with the job, etc, influenced it's higher than expected price.

Absolutely! but i doubt FPV are any better off for those kinds of issues...

[Gobes32]

Well said guys, sometimes we all need to step back and think how lucky we are that such a small market like ours has such a great range of locally built vehicles. We truly are the lucky country.......

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Im not sure how they stuffed up to be honest, ive seen what was involved including some of the costs... i cant see how FPV could do it any differently or cheaply without compromising the result..

If the standard GT has a supercharged engine then in theory it would be easier to wind up the boost a little and make a few changes, like the difference between an XR6 Turbo and an F6. Nothing but a different set of pistons, bigger injectors and intercooler, and an oil cooler, which should keep R&D costs lower than going high strung NA.

If the Mustang GT500 uses a similar, but more powerful engine it would be even easier. It would save them the trouble of paying over 20k for a hand built engine like HSV had to do with the WD40 over the cost of the LS3 as well, and would also in theory allow the engine to be fitted on line, saving further dollars over the W427.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

If the standard GT has a supercharged engine then in theory it would be easier to wind up the boost a little and make a few changes, like the difference between an XR6 Turbo and an F6. Nothing but a different set of pistons, bigger injectors and intercooler, and an oil cooler, which should keep R&D costs lower than going high strung NA.

If the Mustang GT500 uses a similar, but more powerful engine it would be even easier. It would save them the trouble of paying over 20k for a hand built engine like HSV had to do with the WD40 over the cost of the LS3 as well, and would also in theory allow the engine to be fitted on line, saving further dollars over the W427.

That's fine if it turned out that easy and cheap which i doubt but what about the rest of the car!!!!!!!!!!! There's over a $mill in developing a new body kit, then driveline and suspension, brakes, interior... some people are too focused on just the engine and dyno figures...
HSV steered well clear of forced induction for a host of reasons including buyer backlash, it had to be naturally aspirated to achieve their goals, some of which arent tangible....

[Gobes32]

I don't understand why people are against forced induction. It improves the efficiency of the the motor, correct?

[frd906]

here u go guys a vid i found, it aint the 427 but the next one down http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BOMapeA6Dg

[Ibrox90]

The W in W427 stands for Walkinshaw to my understanding so look at it as a walkinshaw on a Holden body

[Whitey-AMG]

Originally Posted by Gobes32

I don't understand why people are against forced induction. It improves the efficiency of the the motor, correct?

Efficiency.........yes....but there's always the pitfalls.......

It puts more demand on the engines lubrication system....and a FI set up generates more heat. More heat means potentially unstable HP and Torque. Getting all this to work reliably and CONSISTENTLY on a factory offered car to meet all EPA requirements throughout the warranty period is a considerable challenge.......especially when you've never done it before.

Then there's always all the issues with drivetrain with the added immediacy and brutality of the TORQUE curve.

That's why, if FPV ever did a FI set up, don't expect an out of the BOX monster...........a mild upgrade in power from the current N/A set up is more likely.

[Auslandau]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

They nearly pulled the pin when the sky clouded over but some elements were to far down the track to stop.
I think we are spoilt with the regular product range to be honest, i think its too easy to forget how damn good the current regular FPV and HSV products are.. To bring out something that's significantly better than the rest of the pack like the W427 is costs a packet...
There's the cheap way and the proper way, the "cheaper" VXR SC Clubsport might make pretty dyno numbers but it isnt a patch on the W427as a pure sports/track tool.
Im not sure you could pick a point in price and performance half way between the std range and where the W427 is and please anyone..
Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Agree .... scares me that I do though

If you look at the range from both GMH & FORD .... for such a small market it is staggering .... then add the FPV, HSV offerings.

Just in the Falcon range (1 model only) Everything from an XT to the GTE, 90% of the public couldn't tell you off the cuff what was in between and the configerations available. Its good to be spoilt and yet ..... bring out a Cobra or 5th Anniversary and eveyone goes off tap because its not 500rwk's. Yes you can't please everyone



| [/url] |

[GK]

Originally Posted by auslandau

A 'hero car' for a manufacturer is great to have ... but if it's so exclusive in number because of price ..... well for me, whats the point?

Good point.

GK

[Kaan]

It is way too much money to spend on a HSV. I don't understand HSV brand. Because there is a lot of them around with the other names. For example: hsv, vauxhall, pontiac. Which one is real? Which ones are copies? If you guys work it out tell me please. Here is the Vauxhall VXR8

[Rodp]

Originally Posted by Akyuz

It is way too much money to spend on a HSV. I don't understand HSV brand. Because there is a lot of them around with the other names. For example: hsv, vauxhall, pontiac. Which one is real? Which ones are copies? If you guys work it out tell me please. Here is the Vauxhall VXR8

They're exported vehicles, named under the local product banner. Why? Don't know. Perhaps they expect more sales than if they called it an HSV in England, USA or the Middle East. Though didn't one of the Vauxhall models come with a supercharged version...?

To me it would be like the US exporting a Corvette to Australia under Holden and calling it a Holden CVT.

[Kaan]

Originally Posted by Rodp

They're exported vehicles, named under the local product banner. Why? Don't know. Perhaps they expect more sales than if they called it an HSV in England, USA or the Middle East. Though didn't one of the Vauxhall models come with a supercharged version...?

To me it would be like the US exporting a Corvette to Australia under Holden and calling it a Holden CVT.

thanks for the info. I am little bit far to these HSV business. I owned a holden once and I will never make that mistake again. It was crappiest car I've ever driven. (VX Commodore)

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by Gobes32

I don't understand why people are against forced induction. It improves the efficiency of the the motor, correct?

To a point, a F/I engine will gobble fuel like a N/A engine when its driven hard, you need to burn fuel to make power.
Reliability and power delivery characteristics are the main draw backs, simple as that.
F/I is great for street driven vehicles but as we've seen in higher demand racing or track conditions they bring an extra dimension that NA doesn't need to cope with.
N/A vehicles are "easier" to drive flat out too.

[Wally]

Originally Posted by Gobes32

I don't understand why people are against forced induction. It improves the efficiency of the the motor, correct?

The main problem is the lead foot tends to increase by the square of the boost level.

[Gobes32]

I understand now, it's just that my rationale was Diesels are so much better when turbo'ed and the same goes for the I6, but supercharging has never really caught on in oz....... Anyone remember the supercharged ecotec?

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by Gobes32

I understand now, it's just that my rationale was Diesels are so much better when turbo'ed and the same goes for the I6, but supercharging has never really caught on in oz....... Anyone remember the supercharged ecotec?

Not sure what you mean by that?
"straight" configuration engines are easier to turbo charge, "V" configuration engines are easier to pd supercharge, both are legitimate forms of forced induction, both can produce the same results, supercharging of diesel engines has been around for decades.

[Gobes32]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Not sure what you mean by that?
"straight" configuration engines are easier to turbo charge, "V" configuration engines are easier to supercharge, both are legitimate forms of forced induction, both can produce the same results, supercharging of diesel engines has been around for decades.

Sorry, what I am trying to get at is, if turbo diesels are much better than n/a diesels and the turbo I6 is much better than the n/a I6, then why has neither manufacturer looked at offering a factory fitted twin turbo or supercharged V8? Does not have to be a raging beast, just a little bit of boost up the top end to make you feel special? CAPA has been doing it for years and yet the factories don't want to know about it.....

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by Gobes32

Sorry, what I am trying to get at is, if turbo diesels are much better than n/a diesels and the turbo I6 is much better than the n/a I6, then why has neither manufacturer looked at offering a factory fitted twin turbo or supercharged V8? Does not have to be a raging beast, just a little bit of boost up the top end to make you feel special? CAPA has been doing it for years and yet the factories don't want to know about it.....

I still don't follow, what do you mean by "better"?
F/I costs more money. Reliability is a factor too... it isnt a cheap way to gain factory performance where build numbers are relatively low.
Until now the NA V8's we have are fine for the job, but the new 5.0 will have FI to compensate for engine capacity.
Forced induction is merely a way of creating artificial engine capacity, in essence it makes a small capacity engine behave like a larger capacity engine when called upon to perform but .. "better" isn't probably the right term.

[dandandandan]

Originally Posted by Rodp

They're exported vehicles, named under the local product banner. Why? Don't know. Perhaps they expect more sales than if they called it an HSV in England, USA or the Middle East. Though didn't one of the Vauxhall models come with a supercharged version...?

To me it would be like the US exporting a Corvette to Australia under Holden and calling it a Holden CVT.

I'd assume they are rebadged/renamed in other countries because those countries haven't heard of HSV or Holden brands and so the companies that are importing the vehicles rename them under their branding i.e SS Commodore as to Pontiac G8 so that there is familiarity in the countries that these are being sold to.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

That's fine if it turned out that easy and cheap which i doubt but what about the rest of the car!!!!!!!!!!! There's over a $mill in developing a new body kit, then driveline and suspension, brakes, interior... some people are too focused on just the engine and dyno figures...
HSV steered well clear of forced induction for a host of reasons including buyer backlash, it had to be naturally aspirated to achieve their goals, some of which arent tangible....

I was just trying to make the point that without having to pay for the LS3, and then pay for an extra 20k LS7 on top of that FPV should be able to produce a GTHO for less money than a W427, by using an upgraded version of the base GT engine.

Why would HSV go for forced induction, they had an engine on the shelf that is near identical on the outside to their current engine that delivered the power they wanted. The ZR1 engine would not have been available to them yet, and would have required a lot more effort to fit.