November 2010 Car Sales

[DanielXR8]

Originally Posted by prydey

you obviously have access to all the same info ford had when they made the decision??

so easy to be an expert!

You have a point. It wouldn't of occurred to me or many others I suspect, to continue to make the Territory with a fault that causes rust in the same place for five years of production, like Ford did with the Territory. Thats expertise for you.

Dan

[DanielXR8]

Originally Posted by prydey

what point?

someone on an internet forum whinged about a dealer so that makes them all bad?? luckily the only good dealer is down the road from me.

also, if he is also referring to the fact that marin has moved on, i don't think that has anything to do with what he may be doing wrong. i think its a indication of what he has done right and now they want to use his expertise in another growing market.

i can never understand how so many people think they know more than the decision makers at ford. if many people on this forum were in control, the ford motor company would be in way more debt than what it currently is (i don't know there situation). apparently it is profitable to make cars that don't sell. apparently all you need to look at in your decision making process is the monthly sales data.

so many experts. i hope you've submitted your business case to ford!

I did submit my business case. I passed up on Ford for two cars and service. They got back to me with a test drive of the FPV GS. It was considerably improved and I am considering their proposal. ;)

Seriously prydey I think you put to much faith in Ford management. These are the same people who gave us the Taurus. I'm just saying.

Dan

[Neale]

I personally had a falcon (ED) I loved that car & the idea of having a big car. Last year I looked around for newer cars.

My parents already changed from Falcon to Focus & had two of them. They loved them & I knew that even though they were a smaller car they could do the same job (minus towing large stuff), & they use far less petrol.

So I went & bought an LS Focus Zetec. Since having the focus I will probably never buy another falcon as I have found

-I can fit more it it being a hatch,
-Uses far less petrol (average 6.8L /per 100kms)
-Better performance & handling
-Holds resale better than a large sedan

The downside is its not rearwheel drive, but I have found this is not that big of a deal as the car is well balanced & has minimal understeer.

Despite apperances Smaller cars are getting bigger & boot luggage capacity of 510 litres (Sedan), 385 litres (hatch) (they also have greater capacity when the seats are folded down & parcel tray removed, they are like a mini station wagon), compared to 504 liters (falcon), 496 litres (commodore)

These are some of the reasons why i went for a "smaller" car over the traditonal sedan, and also why I thing the bigger cars arent selling as well as they used to.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Neale

I personally had a falcon (ED) I loved that car & the idea of having a big car. Last year I looked around for newer cars.


So I went & bought an LS Focus Zetec. Since having the focus I will probably never buy another falcon as I have found

-I can fit more it it being a hatch,
-Uses far less petrol (average 6.8L /per 100kms)
-Better performance & handling
-Holds resale better than a large sedan

i have a ls focus and fg falcon.

out of your list, the only one that is true is the 2nd, the focus uses less fuel, although its only about 1L/100km. our focus gets around 9L/100km (short school and shop runs) and my fg gets 10L/100km so not much in it in my situation.

the other areas are all well into the falcon corner.

you are right though, people are discovering that they don't need such a large car and with so much to choose from in the small/mid market they are moving away from falcon.

Originally Posted by DanielXR8

Seriously prydey I think you put to much faith in Ford management.

not really. i just don't subscribe to the thought that everything i read on line is accurate for the brand or model as a whole. i'm not saying that some models don't have their issues, and whilst it only takes one bad apple to spoil the whole basket, i'm a died in the wool ford supporter and they have nothing to prove to me.

holden followers seem much more loyal, and while some say this is silly, maybe this is why holden sell 3000+ commodores every month. if ford fans blindly kept updating to the next model, the sales figures may look a lot different and we wouldn't be having this discussion. unfortunately, thats not how many on here work (and fair enough, its your money) but if your not prepared to support the product, then don't whinge about low sales.

territory issues are not relevant, or shouldn't be relevant to a ford fan. thats in the past.

any 'swinging voters' that are considering a ford and decide to research on the net, come accross this forum of so called ford supporters and can't find a nice thing said about the product. its no wonder there is poor brand image.

[burnz]

territory issues are not relevant, or shouldn't be relevant to a ford fan. thats in the past.

any 'swinging voters' that are considering a ford and decide to research on the net, come accross this forum of so called ford supporters and can't find a nice thing said about the product. its no wonder there is poor brand image.

now i'm confused...wait what, dont worry about the terry just the swinging voters??
whom may read on a forum...you know the internet is flooded with burnt terry owners!!

[prydey]

Originally Posted by burnz

now i'm confused...wait what, dont worry about the terry just the swinging voters??
whom may read on a forum...you know the internet is flooded with burnt terry owners!!

i was trying to say, given that we are discussing current sales(current territory is fixed - no?) and we are supposedly ford fans, it shouldn't affect a ford fans decision to buy another ford... should it?

[naddis01]

Originally Posted by prydey

i think part of the drop in sales is the fact that the 'large car' thing isn't what it used to be in australia. falcon is fighting for a much smaller peice of the pie these days. if you want a large car there still isn't much choice, and falcon is very competitive in that field for the price.

so what cars are falcons competition? commodore? aurion? camry?? accord? passat? this is a genuine question. what cars do people honestly believe the falcon is fighting with?

has the falcon grown too big? if mondeo was available as a rear drive with a 6cyl, would it sell more?

Yes I feel Falcon and Commodore have grown too big and have basically been pushed there by the increase in size of medium cars. Look at our Mazda 6 wagon, it is the same size as a VS Commodore. 10 or 15 years ago this was considered a large car. I am about 6' 3" or 4" tall and I can set the drivers seat to where is comfortable for me then hop in the back behind it and have plenty of leg room so space isn't an issue. I can easily get 2 baby seats in the back. I can change a babies nappy in the boot because of the flat floor, even with the pram in there as well as all the other baby stuff. I have 400Nm on tap from 1800rpm so it is quick enough for a family hauler while averaging 6L/100km. It handles, stops and accelerates well enough and in my opinion is a great looking car. It mostly has all of the features I want as well as some gimmicks like the voice activation. The only other feature I would like is electic seat memory.

So out of all that, what does a Falcon do better? Maybe has a touch more room across the back seat? Maybe accelerates to 100 quicker? It would be a close run thing for in gear acceleration I think. So to me some of the medium size cars are competing with the Falcon. You are right Prydey in saying that there is more choice out there now and this is contributing somewhat to lower sales in large cars.

[Bossxr8]

Back to why Focus production in Oz was cancelled, it was solely due to the final costings showing that the only way an Oz made Focus was going to get close to the price point that Ford wanted to sell it for, which I believe was around the same price as the current one, was to absolutely cut the equipment levels down to the bone. They would have been a lot more expensive than the imported versions feature for feature, model for model.

The final figures showed it never had a chance in such a price sensitive segment. It was never solely Marins decision as to wether the program was going to go ahead or not, the final decision came down to wether the final costings could show wether it could be done profitably or not. If Gorman was still in charge after the final costings were released the same thing would have happened.

Ford couldn't make money on Focus, Toyota could never make money on Corolla and claim they still couldn't, yet Holden somehow think they can make a profit on Cruze?

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Back to why Focus production in Oz was cancelled, it was solely due to the final costings showing that the only way an Oz made Focus was going to get close to the price point that Ford wanted to sell it for, which I believe was around the same price as the current one, was to absolutely cut the equipment levels down to the bone. They would have been a lot more expensive than the imported versions feature for feature, model for model.

The final figures showed it never had a chance in such a price sensitive segment. It was never solely Marins decision as to wether the program was going to go ahead or not, the final decision came down to wether the final costings could show wether it could be done profitably or not. If Gorman was still in charge after the final costings were released the same thing would have happened.

Ford couldn't make money on Focus, Toyota could never make money on Corolla and claim they still couldn't, yet Holden somehow think they can make a profit on Cruze?

Those costings were done three years ago and since that time much has changed with the soon to be
released MK III Focus which has achieved a huge saving in production costs due to global supplier contracts.


Here's the clincher:
If Ford NA can afford to build and sell a Focus for $16,00 and Titanium Focus for $22,00
then you'd think that FoA would have been able to get into the ball park as well....

[bobthebilda]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Here's the clincher:
If Ford NA can afford to build and sell a Focus for $16,00 and Titanium Focus for $22,00
then you'd think that FoA would have been able to get into the ball park as well....

Completely wrong. Economies of scale have a huge impact on the price of a car. for example, spend $500 million (@ 10% interest) to make 30,000 cars a year, and you have to add $1666 to car cost just to cover interest. Spend $500 million to make 300,000 cars a year, and you have to add $166 to the car to cover interest. Employ a Plant Manager on $150,000 at same plants, and his cost is $5 per car at one plant and 50 cents per car at the other.

A plant making 400,000 of one car (the ideal number according to japanese makers), can produce a car for quite a few thousand dollars less than a plant making only 30 or 40,000.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Those costings were done three years ago and since that time much has changed with the soon to be
released MK III Focus which has achieved a huge saving in production costs due to global supplier contracts.


Here's the clincher:
If Ford NA can afford to build and sell a Focus for $16,00 and Titanium Focus for $22,00
then you'd think that FoA would have been able to get into the ball park as well....

You can't compare the sale price of cars in the US to here, it is a massive difference. Pontiac G8's were 10 grand cheaper than a lower specced Commodore SS sold here and it was essentially the same car.

And costs increase every year, pay rises, costs of steel, electricity etc. Things would be worse now than 3 years ago. And i'm sure FoA would have had total access to the official costing of Focus 3. They would not have based the costs on the current version.

[Road_Warrior]

My point about Focus production wasn't so much the Focus itself, but the ability to build platform derivatives that would be in a much higher profit range (like the Kuga, C-Max). The ability to be able to build those sorts of cars for the region would have been worth a lot to Ford surely.

[Smoke Pursuit]

Ford really have put themselves in a bad corner...

The FG should outsell the Commodore, but without a wagon and important safety features standard like side curtain airbags can anyone see why they don't... Seriously Holden just about has the fleet market tied up atm, curtain airbags standard on omega, sportswagon option, V8 SS sedan / wagon (police), if you were the fleet controller for a government / large corporate the first thing on your list is going to be cost of running, SIDI tick, safety - six airbags, abs, dsc - ve tick, the need for extra space - sportswagon tick, the need for V8 power with economy - tick...

While the FG is a better car it doesnt always tick the boxes, head office still havent committed the cheque book to making side curtain airbags a standard fitment on sedans and utes (FG ute doesnt even have curtain airbag option).

Then we have the issue with Territory, they really are pushing it beyond its expirey date, and as some have said the amount of customers they burnt with BA (FG is a far far better car) its no wonder they just aren't baking the cookies!!

FG2 and the new Territory wont come soon enough for Ford, I reckon in the next model we will see XT gone and G6 / XR6 wil be the new base spec cars, giving the fleets the option of semi luxury / semi sport, XR6 will always win because of resale but who knows, if they make the G6 competive ($1000 derear then Omega) then it should outsell Omega easily.

[Smoke Pursuit]

Holden plans to ease off on big discounts
words - Joshua Dowling
Profit, not market share, is the priority for 2011

» Get the best price on a new Holden Holden has turned into Ebenezer Scrooge in the lead-up to Christmas.


After two years of consistently offering some of the sharpest deals in the new-car business, Holden has vowed its days of drastic discounting are over.

As the Commodore is set to be crowned Australia's biggest selling car for the 15th year in a row, and Holden is destined to report its first profit in five years, the head of the company, Mike Devereux, told media at an end-of-year luncheon in Melbourne late this week that the car maker is not going to slash prices like it has since late 2008 when the Global Financial Crisis hit.

"The last two years have been extraordinary times for Holden, probably the toughest time ever for the business, but those days are behind us," he said.

"We are not going to chase [sales] for the sake of it. We are going to operate profitably and we've been doing that for some time now."

In late 2008, Holden offered discounts of between $8000 and $13,000 on some models, in an attempt to clear stock and quickly raise cash as the full impact of the GFC was still unknown. The deal was so lucrative, many Holden dealers bought cars themselves and put them on their used-car lots.

Since then, over the past two years, Holden has consistently offered discounts of between $3500 and $5000 on Omega and Berlina models, and $5000 and $6000 on SS V8 models. On stock older than 10 months, there was a further $2000 bonus -- and this is on top of the dealer's normal margin (approximately 11 per cent, plus dealer hold back).

"The old way used to be to force feed the system and push cars onto dealers," he said.

"It was a push model, and that was because we had high structural costs and had to keep the factory moving. We're not going to do that anymore, because when the market is full you have to pay [incentive money] to keep the cars moving. Since the GFC, we've found better ways to reduce our costs."

He said the move to be less generous with discounts should help resale values.

"When you buy a car you want it to be worth something when you sell it. If we keep discounting it during your ownership it won't be worth what you need it to be worth."

Devereux said the roll back in discounts will be gradual, to test what the market can handle.

"There's not going to be a sudden change, we're going to roll this back gently," he said. "Our business must be sustainable. Rather than chase volume with [Commodore], we think we're going to get a lot of growth from new models."

Holden believes it can afford to be more bullish with prices because it has a significant number of new models next year. Typically, most car makers don't discount new models in their first year on sale -- and Holden has been in runout mode with old models for a couple of years.

In 2011 Holden will introduce the locally-made versions of the Cruze sedan (Q1) and hatch (Q4), Captiva (Q2) and Barina (Q2), among others.
Devereux said Holden is expected to sell 133,800 cars this year -- up 12 per cent on last year -- and finish 2010 with a market share of 12.9 per cent, which is on par with last year.

Interesting to note they are already discounting VEII... Fools!

[csv8]

My shopping list, a G8E...!!!!

[prydey]

dash - don't get carryied away too much with airbag count. fg still achieved 5 star safety and i think they still had a slightly higher score than ve. same with sidi - economy is barely better than fg, if at all. holden have a long history of pulling wool over eyes so are very good at it.

also, australians seem to have a strong affiliation with holden so regardless of how good or bad it is, it will always sell well. i've often said, holden could re release the vb commo and it would still sell.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

You can't compare the sale price of cars in the US to here, it is a massive difference. Pontiac G8's were 10 grand cheaper than a lower specced Commodore SS sold here and it was essentially the same car.

And costs increase every year, pay rises, costs of steel, electricity etc. Things would be worse now than 3 years ago. And i'm sure FoA would have had total access to the official costing of Focus 3. They would not have based the costs on the current version.

I suspect the reason the Focus was switched to Thailand was probably to enact Mulally's edict
that every vehicle Ford makes will sell for a profit, maybe break even/slight loss wan't good enough.
Pretty sure Gorman was focused on survivability of local manufacturing by giving Broadmeadows
more products to build. When the decision was contemplated, Falcon sales were really bottoming out,
it must have really looked like the apocalypse to FoA so no wonder they were looking for solutions.

I remember the term "permanent die back" was being used in Ford's corridors in reference to Falcon sales
and that the V8 market was slowly going away from them and the Station wagon was no longer viable..

[Brazen]

so Holden can now afford to start removing discounts off the Commodore and stop flogging them so hard? Another benefit of local Cruze production.

[stevz]

Originally Posted by DASH GT

Interesting to note they are already discounting VEII... Fools!

All car companies are discounting at this time of year to clear their 2010 stock. Nothing unusual about that. Why is Holden an exception to this?
Oh sorry I forgot, Ford sells every single vehicle they make at RRP.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Brazen

so Holden can now afford to start removing discounts off the Commodore and stop flogging them so hard? Another benefit of local Cruze production.

Ford or Holden can't stop discounting Falcons and Commodores, the moment they do the sales go elsewhere.
So basically, the XR6 has become the new XT and Holden has basically down graded the Omega to a $34,990 give away.

[Joe5619]

Originally Posted by DASH GT

safety - six airbags,

You need too look at that one again.. even without the 6 airbags, the falcon is still more safer!!

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Joe5619

You need too look at that one again.. even without the 6 airbags, the falcon is still more safer!!

No it's not.
At the moment, rear passenger injuries are not considered during the pole test
but I hear this is changing with the upgrades to NCAP testing program.

Achieving 5 stars in the future will become much harder without curtain airbags

[Joe5619]

Originally Posted by jpd80

No it's not.
At the moment, rear passenger injuries are not considered during the pole test
but I hear this is changing with the upgrades to NCAP testing program.

Achieving 5 stars in the future will become much harder without curtain airbags

Based on current standards & testing, yes it is 110%!! If Ford is losting sales becuase of this, then it is just plan bad selling.. Falcon has scored a better mark then Commodore.. This is fact. Based on current testing Falcon is safer!!

Just like SIDI is better on fuel than the current I6!!!! NOT

[bobthebilda]

Originally Posted by stevz

All car companies are discounting at this time of year to clear their 2010 stock. Nothing unusual about that. Why is Holden an exception to this?
Oh sorry I forgot, Ford sells every single vehicle they make at RRP.

I think you''l find that this isnt an issue with the commodore. It is quite the practice in december for the car to go down the line without the manufactured date on the compliance plate. In january when the cars go out to sales, the plates are then stamped.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Joe5619

Based on current standards & testing, yes it is 110%!! If Ford is losting sales becuase of this, then it is just plan bad selling.. Falcon has scored a better mark then Commodore.. This is fact. Based on current testing Falcon is safer!!

Just like SIDI is better on fuel than the current I6!!!! NOT

Beg to differ, a Falcon with thorax bags and no curtain airbags can score 5 stars,
This means the curtain airbag effect on rear passenger is not taken into account,
during pole and side impact tests but it will be on future NCAP tests.

And for the record, the Falcon scores better than Commodore but that's in other areas.
You can clearly see from this that rear passenger injury score is not taken into account
for the two tests mentioned above but is for frontal tests only..
FG Crash test results in full

[Smoke Pursuit]

Originally Posted by stevz

All car companies are discounting at this time of year to clear their 2010 stock. Nothing unusual about that. Why is Holden an exception to this?
Oh sorry I forgot, Ford sells every single vehicle they make at RRP.

Because VE2 is a new model... Would be like FPV discounting the new 5 litre cars.. Isnt going to happen till next year..



As for the people carrying on about my comment on 6 airbags governments / fleets dont give a toss what safety rating a car has, the still want every safety feature they can get, and yes they are an option on Fords but you have to order it from factory and it costs more money. Every FG Falcon ordered by the NSW / QLD police has curtain airbag option ticked, even if its a senior managers car. Same goes for 80% of all the fleet cars ordered for Telstra, Queensland rail etc. Its sometimes easier for Orix, Fleet care etc to get holdens as they already have all the options ticked. Omega sells way better then XT...

Holden still smash Ford on fleet sales, which makes up for a fair chunk of their output.

[Smoke Pursuit]

Originally Posted by bobthebilda

I think you''l find that this isnt an issue with the commodore. It is quite the practice in december for the car to go down the line without the manufactured date on the compliance plate. In january when the cars go out to sales, the plates are then stamped.

you know nothing about Holden / Ford production.. Ford / Holden build all their dec cars before christmas holiday shut down and plate them as december...

[Deco28]

Originally Posted by DASH GT

Because VE2 is a new model... Would be like FPV discounting the new 5 litre cars.. Isnt going to happen till next year..



As for the people carrying on about my comment on 6 airbags governments / fleets dont give a toss what safety rating a car has, the still want every safety feature they can get, and yes they are an option on Fords but you have to order it from factory and it costs more money.

Holden still smash Ford on fleet sales, which makes up for a fair chunk of their output.

Dash GT you've obviously been oblivious to all the statistics posted on this forums showing that the Falcon has a higher percentage of fleet sales then the commodore..

[Smoke Pursuit]

Originally Posted by Deco28

Dash GT you've obviously been oblivious to all the statistics posted on this forums showing that the Falcon has a higher percentage of fleet sales then the commodore..

Ford Falcon

6,254 or 25% - Fleet
5,654 or 23% - Rental
4,893 or 19% - Private
3,686 or 15% - Large fleet
2,863 or 11% - Government
1,054 or 4% - Other
805 or 3% - Not for profit

Holden Commodore

12,474 or 32% - Fleet
9,947 or 26% - Private
5,719 or 15% - Government
4,317 or 11% - Rental
3,065 or 8% - Other
2,574 or 7% - Large fleet
311 or 1% - Not for profit

Ohh really??

[Joe5619]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Beg to differ, a Falcon with thorax bags and no curtain airbags can score 5 stars,
This means the curtain airbag effect on rear passenger is not taken into account,
during pole and side impact tests but it will be on future NCAP tests.

And for the record, the Falcon scores better than Commodore but that's in other areas.
You can clearly see from this that rear passenger injury score is not taken into account
for the two tests mentioned above but is for frontal tests only..
FG Crash test results in full

Bottom line
Falcon gets 34.61/37, Commodore gets 33.45/37... I dont care what you say the offical rating of both cars currenlty status Falcon is safer (Future rating are not inportant right now).... This is what the sales men should be usng to sell the Falcon on a safety front!!