60 minutes tonight on young drivers.

[Hunter]

Regarding specific types of cars for P plates... all of the arguments have been made about why they may not really fix the problem, but I will say one thing - remember that woman who was an L plater and drove up on a footpath and killed a woman? She was in a little 90s Barina or something like that. DSC or ABS or whatever you want would not have prevented that death, nor presumably many like them.

The only way to prevent deaths to outlaw cars entirely - people, no matter their age or experience, will always find new and inventive ways of getting themselves into trouble and causing death and destruction. This, of course, is a dumb idea so the pragmatic thing to do is accept that:

a) people will always do stupid things and no amount of technology and/or limiting legislation (eg speed limits, passenger limits) will stop this and;

b) teenagers are fundamentally idiotic and take risks, and;

c) the government is almost powerless to stop this but can at least punish those who do stupid things.


Although, having seen a few crash scene videos complete with gore and the like, I reckon it might just change a *few* peoples minds. A guy at work visited a website full of gore and other disturbing things. He showed me one of a pileup and let's just say I did not want my lunch after that. I think some people may think twice after seeing it.

[RJO89]

In my opinion, the main problem with implementing things like that P-plate specific car, albeit not bad in terms of cost, safety, etc etc, the main problem is that as soon as you're allowed to stop driving those sorts of cars, and allowed behind the wheel of a hi-po car, you're still going to do the exact same thing as you would if you had one on your P's. Reason being that you've never done it before, and it would be seen as fun. So really, while it might have an effect on the accident rate within the P-plate age range, you'd probably find that the accident rate for 21-30 yo's would probably increase.

[Airmon]

I think the idea RJO89 is that you will be older, more mature, more experienced and more level headed. That wont be everyone of course but it has its merit.

Flappist, when you can get the government to subsidize or enforce driver training programs then we can maybe start talking about a government funded P-plater car. : It's a decent idea and with a good discussion I'm sure we could make a perfect setup to present to the government but I wouldn't hold your breath.

Alot of people I know had their cars funded by their parents, which is fair enough, but their attitude towards it is then completely different to others who worked hard for the money to buy their first car. Many of my mates are too afraid to drive like complete lunatics because their car means alot to them and if they crash it then they are starting from scratch, and their goal is to upgrade. Whereas others, are bought a car and then have no worries driving it like they stole it.
As such, there is no way for anyone to change that attitude directing your anger towards the drivers, if you want it solved head for the parents.

For those who think Parents can't teach their kids to drive, well thats not entirely true, your parents will pass down their values to you which is something you wont get from an instructor. Also instructors goals are to get you to pass your test, not to teach you every aspect of driving. My instructor would say on many occasions "Don't do that in your test, because they'll fail you, but once you have your license go for your life" : But don't worry, he taught me how to reverse parallel park so I'm clearly a competent driver.
But With that being said, there are things (technical things) an instructor will teach you that your parents can't, but they are not the be-all and end-all.

But what does this all mean? That there is no one solution, and no amount of restrictions will change that!

[Rodp]

Originally Posted by Daymoe

Well if you don't like them, don't read them. Simple, control your right mouse button.

Couldn't the same advice apply to you watching 60 Minutes?

[Rodp]

Originally Posted by Airmon

I don't know why I bothered to watch they story, the faeces they talk just managed to put me in a foul mood. Driving a car is the most dangerous think a P Plater can do? I think swimming in a shark tank with an open wound less then 30minutes after eating would be worse but obviously I'm no expert.

...and how often do you do that?

[b0son]

Originally Posted by flappist

How about "P Plate cars".

Even if they are cheap, there's a hell of a lot of people who wont afford them. What about people who need something bigger for work reasons (an apprentice requiring a ute)?

Changing the cars they drive is a band-aid - they'll still be crashing, only survivability will increase. Why arent we trying to reduce the incidence of crashes?

[b0son]

Originally Posted by Swordsman88

Finally, if it age that is such a factor why is it you can fly an aircraft solo at the age of 16 in australia. I know several people that went solo by age 18 in light aircraft, and have seen these people deal with problems in the air calmy and safely.

Two factors:

1. level of training. months (or years) of theory (maths, physics, meteorology) and practical (one on one by a highly trained professional).

2. cost. learning to fly is far from cheap.

Compare that to driving:

1. any licensed driver can teach you. including mum. the only theory is the road rules... no physics to help you understand whats going on and why. log book? show me one that hasnt been doctored in some way?

2. cost. driving is seen as a right, so you can become licensed for almost no cost. surely if it cost you and arm and a leg you'd take it a bit more seriously?

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by b0son

Two factors:

1. level of training. months (or years) of theory (maths, physics, meteorology) and practical (one on one by a highly trained professional).

2. cost. learning to fly is far from cheap.

Compare that to driving:

1. any licensed driver can teach you. including mum. the only theory is the road rules... no physics to help you understand whats going on and why. log book? show me one that hasnt been doctored in some way?

2. cost. driving is seen as a right, so you can become licensed for almost no cost. surely if it cost you and arm and a leg you'd take it a bit more seriously?

Its fair to say the flying exams, testing process and training would have a natural tendency to weed out those with low maturity levels and a propensity for poor decision making early in the peace too...

[Fev]

Originally Posted by b0son

Even if they are cheap, there's a hell of a lot of people who wont afford them. What about people who need something bigger for work reasons (an apprentice requiring a ute)?

Changing the cars they drive is a band-aid - they'll still be crashing, only survivability will increase. Why arent we trying to reduce the incidence of crashes?

We ARE. Driving enthusiasts ARE trying to reduce the amount of crashes each year, schooling the young(like myself) in better ways to drive and through their own personal experience letting young people know what can and WILL happen in a car if you treat it the wrong way.. We all know speed is not the major fact in deaths, its poor driving and bad decisions(made by the RTA to give them a license in alot of cases). Sure - i admit i've had a crash before, and it was my fault but it wasn't due to having 8 people in the car yelling at me to go faster, or due to poor road skills like we see every day in all kinds of people ie changing lanes without indicating, swerving, driving faster then the conditions allow for, trying to cut off people and zip ahead of others etc etc..

P-plate cars would be useless - we wouldn't be able to afford them, and if we could we probably wouldn't want to drive them in the first place, i cant imagine what difference there would be between a "p-plate car" made by the government and a bloody toyota yaris..

the government need's to make the driving tests stricter.. sure we can all read a booklet on driving and do the theory but the test needs to be longer and tougher and includes a 2 hour advanced driver training course NOT funded by the government because if the driver cant afford the test, they cant afford a car, the insurance, fuel and repairs...

[Spudz27]

Originally Posted by seduced_xr

im sick of seeing the crap thats put on p platers. as an upcoming p plater im not looking foward to half the crap im going to have thrown at me. and i know because i have a falcon im going to be thrown in the same basket with every other hoon

That's got nothing to do with being a P plater, well not down here anyway. I have my family in my ED 90% of the time and have a clean driving record. I have been driving 7 years. Yet I still get targeted and treated like a hoon. The other day you should have seen just how quick the cops turned and came flying up behind me. I wasn't speeding or anything. Then they had a good look over the car and told me my tail lights were illegal. I know others who were sitting at the local carpark doing nothing wrong when the cops came down told them to move or every car would be yello stickered because "They were sick of complaints from residents hearing burnouts" yet these guys never did anything, and I am sorry but the idiot P platers in their cars were the culprits this time.

[ch33z1l]

Id like to see these defensive driving courses become mandatory for new drivers, and up until gaining a full license. Perhaps stage 1 for L platers, with more challenging courses for P platers.
I think it would be good for full licensed drivers to also have to undertake the courses...perhaps not as often, maybe once every 5 years or so.
With the courses themselves, instead of being told 'u failed, come back in 3 weeks', I think it would be good for instructors to show you where u went wrong and how to do it right.

[b0son]

Originally Posted by Zamtro

if the road train is only doing 105 in a 110 then just settle down behind them... even over several hundred k's that 5kmph will make the smallest difference in time...

that's assuming i want to do 110. i seldom do.

across the Hay plain, i'm inclined to do 160 when conditions are good. saves me several hours and massively reduces onset of fatigue. years of driving experience and many long trips tell me fatigue is a far bigger problem.

and for NT, i wasn't aware of there speed limits, never been there before. even limiting to 130 would help i believe.

the NT road toll has INCREASED since a limit was put in.

[Charliewool]

Originally Posted by flappist

Firstly such a law will not affect anyone one here because by the time it would be proclaimed and implemented you will all be on open licenses.

The second part of this.

We have a huge car building capability in Australia. There is an almost new Mitsubishi factory in Adeliade for a start.

If this "P car" was built with Holden, Ford and whatever sub components, used hybrid engine technology and was a "no name" brand it may also help save jobs as well as lives.

If it were capable of left or right hand drive and because there was only one model was VERY cheap for parts and maintenance, maybe Australia could export these to the rest of the word.

Making them have a 6 year life before recycling and having them subsidised by the funding saved from all the oncosts from road deaths might make them viable.

e.g. retail price $10k (less than a camry with no taxes or tarrifs) and financed over 5 years (the period of the license) and no interest is about $40 per week.

If anyone cannot afford that then they cannot afford to drive.

I really think this idea has some merit... I'd even go a step further and instead of subsidised and OWNED by the P plater, have the P Plate specific vehicle under an affordable for all leasing/loan arrangement.
After the 3 yr period is up.. The vehicle is handed in and passed onto the next generation of up-coming drivers.. (Maybe a 100,000k or 5yr lifespan?)
Either the Government or a Government funded body would be in charge of the fleet and it's periodical maintenance and upkeep.
So in essence, you'd pass your P's and be issued with a license and the keys to your car.
All cars absolutely identical (maybe bar colour) would hugely reduce the peer pressures of "mines faster than yours syndrome"

[Buddy 1]

Just had a quick read through all the Posts, now I may have missed something however it looks to me that nobody has Mentioned the fact that as they showed on ACA young Peoples Brains are still Growing & Do not work properly (which Explains alot).

The part of the Brain related to Judgement & Decision Making :P

So why not make 18 the new Driving Age & 21 the New Drinking Age.

Or both at 21, works for me :

Flame Suit On :P

[b0son]

Originally Posted by Zamtro

Stopping some deaths is better than stopping none, and if you don't agree with that then i disagree with your morals.

You could continue to implement ever more restrictions to get the road toll to zero, however, the impact on transport would cost far more economically than you would gain. At some point, you have to be practical. Especially when you consider we let people drive that probably shouldnt.

[ch33z1l]

Originally Posted by b0son

that's assuming i want to do 110. i seldom do.

across the Hay plain, i'm inclined to do 160 when conditions are good. saves me several hours and massively reduces onset of fatigue. years of driving experience and many long trips tell me fatigue is a far bigger problem.



the NT road toll has INCREASED since a limit was put in.

I must say, your game doing 160 across the Hay Plain. Everytime I go to Hay (from Leeton), I pass a highway patrol...

But you are right, fatigue across that section of road is a major problem

[Fev]

Originally Posted by charliewool

I really think this idea has some merit... I'd even go a step further and instead of subsidised and OWNED by the P plater, have the P Plate specific vehicle under an affordable for all leasing/loan arrangement.
After the 3 yr period is up.. The vehicle is handed in and passed onto the next generation of up-coming drivers.. (Maybe a 100,000k or 5yr lifespan?)
Either the Government or a Government funded body would be in charge of the fleet and it's periodical maintenance and upkeep.
So in essence, you'd pass your P's and be issued with a license and the keys to your car.
All cars absolutely identical (maybe bar colour) would hugely reduce the peer pressures of "mines faster than yours syndrome"

i dunno about you but i wouldnt want to live in a world where everything is the same and we have no choice..

[GORDZ]

Originally Posted by b0son

that's assuming i want to do 110. i seldom do.

across the Hay plain, i'm inclined to do 160 when conditions are good. saves me several hours and massively reduces onset of fatigue. years of driving experience and many long trips tell me fatigue is a far bigger problem.



the NT road toll has INCREASED since a limit was put in.

I'm with you there mate, even at 130kph i feel more awake and alert on those long drives. Onset fatigue is a massive problem too, and no, curfews wont fix that. I actually find that dvds playing keep me awake much more, as i have something to glance at and keep my mind active. And I know some of you are going to fire up at me saying that it's irresponsible and illegal and what not, but I can guarantee you it will be an asleep driver with his eyes open that hits that 7 seater head on at 3am, not me.

[FlipXW]

Reading some of these post makes me very very glad im not a youngin growing up again. All im hearing is the rules and freedom of choice were great when I was a lad however lets make it boring and lame for the new generation. When I was learning I drove an XR8 and never once got into trouble but according to many here my inexperience at the time would have meant I should have crashed cause its impossible for a young person to control. IMO inexperience counts for 5% of crashes, idiocy and maturity 95%.

[Buddy 1]

Originally Posted by PhilXR8

Reading some of these post makes me very very glad im not a youngin growing up again. All im hearing is the rules and freedom of choice were great when I was a lad however lets make it boring and lame for the new generation. When I was learning I drove an XR8 and never once got into trouble but according to many here my inexperience at the time would have meant I should have crashed cause its impossible for a young person to control. IMO inexperience counts for 5% of crashes, idiocy and maturity 95%.

Yes I would have Hated Rules Like Myself & Others are Suggesting when I was young, however we are More aware Today than we were 30 years ago, we have much More Traffic on the Roads, Cars are more Powerful in General & young people these days are Not Exactly the same as when we were young. (More Cranky for 1).

I Freely admit I was a Hoon when young & learnt to Drive in a 1.5 Litre Escort Panel Van, then Moved into a 5 Litre GTS Monaro (with a fully Rebuilt & High Performance Engine) which could have Killed me Many Times over & even though I think I had above Average skills by then (I was almost 18) I can see looking back I was also Very Lucky I did not Kill Myself or others.

So with that Wisdom & Hindsight I say we Need to Restrict young People in some Fashion & the best Idea around is to raise the Driving Age to 18.

This would help save Lives & that is the Most Important issue here & not anything else like Freedom of Choice or Needing a License to get to work etc..

See young people we are not your Enemy, we are doing our best to save your Lives.

I would rather have you Alive & Hate me than Dead

[ArTeesT]

I think the whole P plate is a little lame, in the end its basicaly just a sticker on your car letting other people know you just got your licence. I know there are a few restrictions but nothing that really bothers you or helps you become a better driver.

They should have something where during there P plater period every they have to complete so many driving courses or whatever. If its a 2 year P plate then 6 courses every year followed by a final prac test on everything thats been taught.

Split the courses up a fair bit and focus on different section every time.

The final prac test could be something that they also do at the start of there P plates, with results and details recorded and then they can see the difference there training has made over the 2 years.

I also think they should run these tests every 3 or 5 years after that and continualy compare data. It would also be a good way to keep every driver up to date and on there toes.

[Fev]

increasing the age from 16-18 isnt going to do a thing. they NEED to make the tests stricter and put up mandatory advanced driver training.. in fact i think everyone no matter how old or experienced should do this every 5 or 10 years to brush up on skills like in the wet etc...

[mowog]

Originally Posted by Daymoe

Exactly, just because some older people can't either, why don't we have the restrictions up untill you turn 50?

So you think 50 is old? Interesting...

[braddyxe51]

50 not old. If medical conditons yes. Maybe retest at 70-75. My granddad hasnt been able to drive since before he was 50 (eye sight) same with my nan from 70.
My dad 69 still works full time. You should see him crack the sh**s when people ask him for his sienors card. He doent see him self as being that age yet.

[Fev]

im sure he still takes the pensioner benefits though :P

i would.. 1/2 price transport.. that would save me $25 a week in trains/busses and whatnot..

[TE50pilot]

:
I haven't read all the thread but did anyone notice that the guy who was killed in one of the accidents was 16yrs old. NOT a P plater. Took his mothers car without her knowledge to go to a party and then was killed when he hit a ploe or something.
Now correct me if I am wrong but isn't driving without a licecnce against the law to start with?Even if the legal age for driving was lifted to 18yrs old this guy would have probably still taken his mothers car without her knowledge and done the same thing.
The legal age means nothing to a person like that. Sorry if I offend anyone but that is the fact.
What really gets me is the examples put up by the media are not always the common thing happening. Earlier on the news a bike was hsown that hit the side of a car and the rider was killed and pillion fightint for his life. Witnesses say the bike did not have his lights on both were not wearing helmets and they hit this car smack in the middle of the side. Now what does the camera focus on? Yes you guessed it the P plate on the car.
No I am not a P plater but I do have children at the age this is aimed at and yes they are car nuts (boy and girl) and yes they know I speed at times. Hell they even know I drank and drove back in the day but they have the right attitude towaards driving and probably learnt from my mistakes.
Forget the red or green letter P on the cars and look at the individuals and as always there are small amount of idiots everywhere.
IMO poor attitudes kill not cars.

[flappist]

Reading back over the thread.

The "expert" on 60 skippys reckoned that a major component of the problem is that young people think they are good drivers, are "bulletproof", are equal if not better than most other drivers and make carefully thought out informed non emotive decissions while the EXACT opposite is true.

THE REPLIES IN THIS THREAD SUPPORT HIS POSITION.

There is also a group of narrow minded older drivers who see all P platers as hoons because that is what they see on TV or at maccas or where ever.

There is also a group who think this is a simple problem and requires a simple solution. IT IS NOT.

In the last year or so I have taught 2 young people to drive. It was quite scary sometimes. Neither of them could judge speed or distance and would give way to cars 500m away then later have to almost lock up the wheels slowing down for a give way sign or corner.
They could not hold a constant speed without looking at the speedo or stay in a lane and would almost always be in the wrong gear on every occaision.

These things require years of practice to become second nature, NO ONE can do it naturally. To brake, change gear and steer around a problem instictivly is a skill thagt must be learned by experience.

The 60 skippies crash test just confirmed what I saw at the AFF Gympie skid pan day. All the young ones constantly misjudged what their car was doing and either spun out or understeered off the track. ALL OF THEM. I am fairly sure some did not make a single circuit without an oops.

This is not their fault. They have never done it before did not (and probably still do not) understand why or what was happening.

The P platers think they are being picked on and villified unfairly. Again part of the problem is not their fault it is ours.

OUR CARS ARE OFTEN TOO POWERFULL.

A 6 cylinder FG N/A has more power than a XB GT. ALL FPVs ever made have more power than a Phase 3 GTHO.

When I was a P plater the dream car was a V8 Monaro or Sandman or Sundowner. The really powerful ones were about 130kw. My first car, a Kingswood, was speed limited to about 135km/h (flat bikkie, down hill with everyone leaning forward) and I only knew ONE person who have been to 160 km/h.
My first new car a XC Sundowner did 155 flat out and it took a long time to get there so I did not get into as much trouble as I could have.

Now the average 20 year old can buy a BA XR6T or VT2 SS for about $20k over 7 years, modifiy it to 100000000rwkw and try and hang on to it when "driving".

This is why they are getting into trouble. If you are going fast then things happen fast. If you have lots of power it can bite. My F6 bit me a couple of times but I was lucky and instinctivly recovered it. If I have not had over a million kilometres driving experience I suspect I may have not been so lucky.

Many do not like my "P plate mobile" idea. So be it, it is just an idea.

There is a problem and it must be solved but as a democracy often we do not want to solve problems as it may upset people.

e.g. Why are cigarettes not banned outright like heroin? (don't answer this, I know you have the right to kill yourself unless you actually want to kill yourself in which case you don't have the right to).

Everyone has an agenda........

[XR6_661]

If you ask me.

Who cares.

If you are a good, mature P-plate driver, or any driver for that matter. Then none of this should worry you. More often then not it's the actual 'hoons' that arc up over all this nonesense.

And if you don't wanna be tarred with the same brush, do something about it.

2 weeks into getting my p-plates, I was doing a defensive driving course. It taught me a hell of a lot about car control and the theory behind it. It's also great ammo when someone starts making noise about how you are a typical P-plater hoon, get your cert out showing that you have actually done something about it. Shuts them up and gets you some resect.

Ithink it should be compulsary, and possibly something that can be funded partly by governments as a "Young drivers incentive program" or whatever, is all first year p-platers are required to do a defensive driving course.

[ArTeesT]

Wouldnt it be good if they took all speed camera revenue and placed it into driving courses for all drivers!

[GORDZ]

sorry flappist, but i see FAR more wrecked lancers and excels on the news than powerfull 8s, 6's or turbo'd 4s, so to say that when young people get in trouble is when they hop behind the wheel of a powerful car, i'd have to disagree with you there.

Without seeing some undoctored, unbiased absolutely honest stats and figures on incident reports that include

age:
sex:
power to weight ratio:
single / multiple vehicle:
BAC:
# Passengers:
Speed:
# months experience:
Transmission:
Time:

then IMO it's hard for a forum to collectively make agreeable theories on ways to rectify issues thats the media are drumming into us.

IMO the vast majority of our oppinions are based on what we see and hear through media, but of the 20+ crashes, dings and bingles I have seen on the roads, I think there was one or two p plates there.

People are going to kill themselves willingly or unwillingly. And its a shame that in doing so they can sometimes take others with them.

I can only speak for myself here, but if there were free (or cheap) venues that young drivers could go and thrash their cars, get sideways, slaloms, go to whoas or whatever, we'd see alot less dead kids on the news. Not only would it be a fun night, but it would also be an invariably priceless experience on things like car limitations, out of control handling, tyre physics, oversteer / understeer correction etc etc. Now people are going to say that if we have such facilities then we'll see more of it on the road.. but no one can know that for sure. People will drive how they want to drive, and probly the majority of male drivers choose their car based on how they want to drive. The question therein lies in why so many aforementioned 'small' sector cars are involved in so many incidents, and really, short of lpg explosions and bad decisions, 'lack of experience' can be attributed to nearly every crash imaginable. speed, drugs, alcohol and drag racing also fall under bad decisions.

'aged' or 'older' drivers are saying that yes they made stupid decisions in their past, so I ask you this: what do you attribute your still being alive to?