it is getting harder to be responsible

[DBourne]

Originally Posted by geckoGT

The only truly effective system would be the fitting of breathalyzer ignition locks to all vehicles. I am not against this idea, how about those that support the notion of a free police service, will you consent to the fitting of one of these?

but that's big brother! didn't you know?

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by SgtBourne

but that's big brother! didn't you know?

Oops, sorry I forgot about that.

And a cop breath testing you before you drive isn't?

Unfortunately I think you and I will sometimes struggle with the logic of it all.

[GTP owner]

Originally Posted by geckoGT

So far in this debate, not one person who claims the idea is a good one and the police should be doing it has made even the slightest suggestion on how it could be funded or implemented.

A great big new tax on alcohol by the Federal Gummint!.....

Seriously, alcohol is just as much an evil as smokes. Gecko - you see the effects as an officer, I see it in the casualty department.

[Quicksand]

I have just read the whole thread, and it's amazing how convoluted the issue is.

On the face of it, the person had honest intentions to do the right thing by requesting a pedestrian breathe test. From there this has exploded to legal and political ramifications, political correctness, shirking of responsibilities, duty of care etc.

I'm sorry, but it is a sad state of society today that an honest act to do the right thing becomes so embroiled in 'everything else'. I'm not minimising the implications of providing this service, but it is just a measure of where we have come and the mind frames of people today.

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by GTP owner

A great big new tax on alcohol by the Federal Gummint!.....

Seriously, alcohol is just as much an evil as smokes. Gecko - you see the effects as an officer, I see it in the casualty department.

I agree with you, whack a 25% tax on all drinks in clubs and bars and then use those funds towards police, ambulance and emergency department running costs.

On a Friday night in the city I might go to 8 "drink spiking" (amazing people drink and then fall down) and assaults at clubs. Each call out of an ambulance costs about $700 to the public of QLD, $5600 of wasted public money because people want to get drunk and into fights, they should pay for the privilege.

On the face of it, the person had honest intentions to do the right thing by requesting a pedestrian breathe test. From there this has exploded to legal and political ramifications, political correctness, shirking of responsibilities, duty of care etc.

I have no problem with the request or the notion. The idea of publicly criticising the police service and all the others that get on here and join that band wagon without reasonable argument, that I find distasteful.

Yes the cop in the OP said a stupid thing, but perhaps he already had more than one make the same request, plus had to deal with many other issues that night (some of them very distasteful) and his sense of humour was a little short.

I know my sense of humour can wear quite thin towards the end of the shift and I don't have to put up with half the garbage the cops do.

[ToCo]

Originally Posted by geckoGT

I agree with you, whack a 25% tax on all drinks in clubs and bars and then use those funds towards police, ambulance and emergency department running costs.

On a Friday night in the city I might go to 8 "drink spiking" (amazing people drink and then fall down) and assaults at clubs. Each call out of an ambulance costs about $700 to the public of QLD, $5600 of wasted public money because people want to get drunk and into fights, they should pay for the privilege.



I have no problem with the request or the notion. The idea of publicly criticising the police service and all the others that get on here and join that band wagon without reasonable argument, that I find distasteful.

Yes the cop in the OP said a stupid thing, but perhaps he already had more than one make the same request, plus had to deal with many other issues that night (some of them very distasteful) and his sense of humour was a little short.

I know my sense of humour can wear quite thin towards the end of the shift and I don't have to put up with half the garbage the cops do.

People don't just drink at drive when they go to a club, a lot of it happens from the home and often from a mates place. Yes there would be a higher percentage but it's a bit rich to penalise "some" people for the select few that wreck a good night for us, so I have to totally disagree with putting a 25% tax on drink at pubs and clubs.
Also a lot of the people posting here have said the same as me that IF there is a policeman near by surely there isn't much of a hassle to just get checked. But don't go on to say that "what if everyone does it its costing us all money so on...." Most of the people that ask only do it as a once of and are doing it because they are being responsible by checking. Think of it like a more serious maths equation: you are responsible for checking your answers and making sure its correct, but if you can use a calculator to check why not?

I think some people need to realise that there will always be drunk drivers who put us all at risk unless we have some outrageous ban on alcohol altogether. Sadly thats how we live...

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by BlackBoss

People don't just drink at drive when they go to a club, a lot of it happens from the home and often from a mates place. Yes there would be a higher percentage but it's a bit rich to penalise "some" people for the select few that wreck a good night for us, so I have to totally disagree with putting a 25% tax on drink at pubs and clubs.
Also a lot of the people posting here have said the same as me that IF there is a policeman near by surely there isn't much of a hassle to just get checked. But don't go on to say that "what if everyone does it its costing us all money so on...." Most of the people that ask only do it as a once of and are doing it because they are being responsible by checking. Think of it like a more serious maths equation: you are responsible for checking your answers and making sure its correct, but if you can use a calculator to check why not?

I think some people need to realise that there will always be drunk drivers who put us all at risk unless we have some outrageous ban on alcohol altogether. Sadly thats how we live...

I see you point and think it is a reasonable request of the police.

Now lets play with that notion for a bit.

Lets say that the police service allows these requests and has appropriate policy protecting the officers and the service. How do they limit the number of these tests they do so they don't become frequent enough to adversely affect police operations in busy pubs and clubs? Remember once one person gets tested, someone else is likely to see this and think it is a good idea, request a test too, and so on.

As for the alco tax on clubs and pubs. Every resident of every state already pays. You pay for extra police to handle the crowds and the violence, you pay for the extra hospital staff in the overworked emergency departments and you pay for the extra ambulance staff to pick up drunks, you just don't realise it.

[Fireblade]

Discretion on the part of the police, you can tell if someone is tanked and just stuffing around, and you can also tell when someone is genuinely wanting to know if they can drive or not. Pointless wasting tests on people you can look at and know they can't drive.

[Fireblade]

We use one of the breathalyzers for work that are the same ones the Police use here in SA, they have a 600 test or 6 monthly calibration cycle, you could always charge people say $5 to do a check, this takes out the idiots and if it doesn't at least they pay for it. We have a station on Hindley Street here in Adelaide which for people that don't know is our nightclub strip, they could set up in there with the check station and charge for it there.

Just food for thought....

I dont drink much and if I do I dont drive so lets say I am just playing the devils advocate.

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by F6 FOON

We use one of the breathalyzers for work that are the same ones the Police use here in SA, they have a 600 test or 6 monthly calibration cycle, you could always charge people say $5 to do a check, this takes out the idiots and if it doesn't at least they pay for it. We have a station on Hindley Street here in Adelaide which for people that don't know is our nightclub strip, they could set up in there with the check station and charge for it there.

Just food for thought....

I dont drink much and if I do I dont drive so lets say I am just playing the devils advocate.

Good food for thought but here are two issues for you.

1) Testing one person and not another will leave the police open to complaints of discrimination, trust me, people will complain. Need a system more reliable than that.

2) The user pays system will not work as no police service will allow police officers to collect any money for service, nor will any cop want to. The whole police corruption problem.

In a perfect world they would be nice ideas but in the world in which we live, neither will work.

[ToCo]

Originally Posted by geckoGT

I see you point and think it is a reasonable request of the police.

Now lets play with that notion for a bit.

Lets say that the police service allows these requests and has appropriate policy protecting the officers and the service. How do they limit the number of these tests they do so they don't become frequent enough to adversely affect police operations in busy pubs and clubs? Remember once one person gets tested, someone else is likely to see this and think it is a good idea, request a test too, and so on.

As for the alco tax on clubs and pubs. Every resident of every state already pays. You pay for extra police to handle the crowds and the violence, you pay for the extra hospital staff in the overworked emergency departments and you pay for the extra ambulance staff to pick up drunks, you just don't realise it.

You're right it would be hard to control how many are tested, but as F6 FOOn said, they would be able to tell the serious ones and the ones that are just being PiTA.

I know we already pay, but are you asking for another 25% on top of that just for the booze? That is a lot of money, but I do understand that its takes a lot of money for the system(s) to be run.
I think you have to be realistic here though, all these suggestions are well and good but the thing is I just can't see people accepting a new Tax like that, I know I wouldn't.
Just look at how well the previous Alco-tax was received... and wasn't that just for premixed??

We do need a fix for it though.

Todd.

[Fireblade]

Originally Posted by geckoGT

Good food for thought but here are two issues for you.

1) Testing one person and not another will leave the police open to complaints of discrimination, trust me, people will complain. Need a system more reliable than that.

2) The user pays system will not work as no police service will allow police officers to collect any money for service, nor will any cop want to. The whole police corruption problem.

In a perfect world they would be nice ideas but in the world in which we live, neither will work.

Then if the Police won't do it, maybe lobby for a community service to do it. Have Video surveillance running so if some intoxicated idiot decides they are discriminating show them the video of them being a tool and im sure that will resolve it. A user pays sytem would work given the right thoughts and roll out of such a service.

People complain about all sorts of crap now what would be the problem?

[4Vman]

Here's a better idea which is far less complicated, costs nothing and has no legal implications for anyone: JUST follow the guidelines, dont take risks and dont drink drive...

[Fireblade]

But if people stopped committing crime we wouldn't need police.......

If religion and money stopped creating wars we wouldn't need armys.........

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by BlackBoss

You're right it would be hard to control how many are tested, but as F6 FOOn said, they would be able to tell the serious ones and the ones that are just being PiTA.

I know we already pay, but are you asking for another 25% on top of that just for the booze? That is a lot of money, but I do understand that its takes a lot of money for the system(s) to be run.
I think you have to be realistic here though, all these suggestions are well and good but the thing is I just can't see people accepting a new Tax like that, I know I wouldn't.
Just look at how well the previous Alco-tax was received... and wasn't that just for premixed??

We do need a fix for it though.

Todd.

See your point Todd

The figure of 25% was not a serious figure, that would have to be calculated after a lot of research and beyond the scope of a dumb paramedic like myself, you took me a bit too literally.

I think the important point is the behaviour we are seeing is wasting a lot of public health and safety resources and I think it is only fair that the culprits for that extra expenditure contribute to the costs.

So, I see that we have a choice. We can either increase the tax on alcohol sold at public establishments (for on site consumption) to cover that expense and the expansion of services we require. Or we could all just behave whilst having a night out and not get into a drunken stupor or punch crap out of each other.

Out of those two, I know which is more likely and the other is the one I would prefer.

Without such an increase in funds for resources, get used to longer wait times for police and ambulance services for non urgent cases (at the moment, the wait time for metro QLD for an ambulance can be up to 6 hrs on a weekend night) and wait times in excess of 6 hrs in a hospital emergency department for non urgent cases. The sad fact is, that is where we are now and it is only getting worse (despite the fact that QLD Ambulance has had the steepest growth rate in history in the last few years).

But that is all a bit off topic and I only went down that path before to illustrate the problem that everyone wants more functions from the emergency services but no one actually wants to pay for it. For some reason everyone seems to have this subconscious thought that emergency services should be volunteer organisations and provide service for free.

[DJR-351]

I remember back in the 70s, in Lake Grace WA, the old copper (Sergeant Grant) used to wait out front of the pub at closing time on a Saturday night and pour the p*** heads into the back of his paddy wagon as they came out, then he'd drive them home.

His reasoning was it was less paper work.....ahhh the good old days growing up in a country town.....

[Fireblade]

Originally Posted by DJR-351

I remember back in the 70s, in Lake Grace WA, the old copper (Sergeant Grant) used to wait out front of the pub at closing time on a Saturday night and pour the p*** heads into the back of his paddy wagon as they came out, then he'd drive them home.

His reasoning was it was less paper work.....ahhh the good old days growing up in a country town.....

Yep thats called "Saving us from ourselves". This is the problem I have with current OH&S legislation, we have to protect the dummies from themselves rather than educate them.

Sorry for being a bit OT, but it does serve a little to this topic.

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by F6 FOON

Then if the Police won't do it, maybe lobby for a community service to do it. Have Video surveillance running so if some intoxicated idiot decides they are discriminating show them the video of them being a tool and im sure that will resolve it. A user pays sytem would work given the right thoughts and roll out of such a service.

People complain about all sorts of crap now what would be the problem?

Ok, that could work but lets look at some figures.

What does a breathalyzer unit cost, will probably need a couple of those. Then there is the servicing of those units. Add onto to that the required insurance costs for the service. Then we have to add onto that the cost of the staff. Next somewhere to put them, maybe a mobile van or something. Then there is the cost of the video systems and security (they are collecting money so they have big security issues).

Lets just throw a figure out there and say the whole thing costs $500,000 for a year of service. At $5 per test (I doubt many will want to pay this much but this will do) it would take 100,000 tests to cover costs. There are 52 weekends in the year which equates to 104 big nights (friday and saturday), one unit would have to do 960 tests in a night! Yes it could run on other nights but mid week will not get the volume of use to cover additional overheads. Even if we managed to halve the overheads to $250,000, that will still require 480 tests a night, in one unit!

Not sure that I can see the service being that popular in one place. Personally I think taking a bit of personal responsibility and using you brain is a much better option, it works for most people.

[Fireblade]

I completely understand Gecko, and for 1 don't think it really should be put into place even though I suggested it, but with all the over the top protecting us from ourselves it fits right in. I don't think common sense seems to work for most people, especially with what I see day to day in my work let alone on the road and any where else. If this was the way there would be less stress on the current emergency services we already have. The gap between the smarter and the dumber is getting larger everyday and the need for these services to protect them (The dummies) is only going to grow.

Interesting debate though ;)

We have a policy here that gives people the option to for me to test them before starting work to see if they are over the prescribed limit (0.02), if people were smart would we need to have this in place? We also do randoms.

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by F6 FOON

I completely understand Gecko, and for 1 don't think it really should be put into place even though I suggested it, but with all the over the top protecting us from ourselves it fits right in. I don't think common sense seems to work for most people, especially with what I see day to day in my work let alone on the road and any where else. If this was the way there would be less stress on the current emergency services we already have. The gap between the smarter and the dumber is getting larger everyday and the need for these services to protect them (The dummies) is only going to grow.

Interesting debate though ;)

Never a truer word spoken

[BOSHOG]

Originally Posted by geckoGT

Ok, that could work but lets look at some figures.

What does a breathalyzer unit cost, will probably need a couple of those. Then there is the servicing of those units. Add onto to that the required insurance costs for the service. Then we have to add onto that the cost of the staff. Next somewhere to put them, maybe a mobile van or something. Then there is the cost of the video systems and security (they are collecting money so they have big security issues).

Lets just throw a figure out there and say the whole thing costs $500,000 for a year of service. At $5 per test (I doubt many will want to pay this much but this will do) it would take 100,000 tests to cover costs. There are 52 weekends in the year which equates to 104 big nights (friday and saturday), one unit would have to do 960 tests in a night! Yes it could run on other nights but mid week will not get the volume of use to cover additional overheads. Even if we managed to halve the overheads to $250,000, that will still require 480 tests a night, in one unit!

Not sure that I can see the service being that popular in one place. Personally I think taking a bit of personal responsibility and using you brain is a much better option, it works for most people.

also it would be nice for some people to use a little restraint and drink something non-alcoholic if they plan on driving home

[ToCo]

As part of generation Y, I can't see this problem getting better, the dangerous people will never learn, we all know that.
Education doesn't work, most of us (Gen Y) don't want to listen to what we are told, I know because I have the same mindset on other subjects.
Scare tactics don't work, in my case they have, in regards to drink driving, losing a close friend will do that. It's sad to think that this is what it takes for some people to do the right thing.

I can't imagine what it must be like for you and all the other emergency servicemen/women that deal with these types of people/incidents pretty much day in day out. Having to be helped out by Ambulances a couple of times in my life due to Epilepsy I have a lot of respect for the people that do your job


So then,where does that leave us?
We can't blanket the situation for everyone, people shouldn't have to suffer for others mistakes, maybe money is the only thing that could fix this, a lot of it though..
Seems to me it can only get worse at this point in time. Same thing could be said about speeding, but I'll leave that for another thread...

Todd.

[Fireblade]

Originally Posted by BlackBoss

So then,where does that leave us?
We can't blanket the situation for everyone, people shouldn't have to suffer for others mistakes, maybe money is the only thing that could fix this, a lot of it though..
Seems to me it can only get worse at this point in time. Same thing could be said about speeding, but I'll leave that for another thread...

Todd.

Unfortunately Todd this is where it does leave us, they/we have to blanket the situation for everybody and this is where it gets extremely frustrating as you or I feel like we are dummies because a select few cannot and will not look after themselves with rational decisions which tends to lead itself to a blanket population solution. IE: One employee decides it would be good to stick his hand in a machine even though there are signs (SWP or SOP) everywhere saying do not do this, your trainer has emphasised this, now it is to the detriment of the company and the workers that we have to guard protect this machine even though everybody else knows not to do this. It now takes you longer to do the job and the company loses money/time all because one person can't use their head.

[LTDHO]

Drive in any construction zone and you will see 2 out of every 5 men working whilst rest stand around. Roads are reserfaced for no apparent reason. Sometimes withing years of being done. Our polie's love having taking these tax payer funded trips.

How bout they spend this money on education?
That's right, that wouldn't provide an income.


Road toll to date:
2009 toll 120
2010 toll 137 (up 14%)

So is the current methods really working?

Age group 09 and 10
18 to 20 = 19 and 12
30 to 39 - 17 and 22

Is it really the 'P' platers causing the high road toll?

Most deaths I come across are from driver error, not speeding or alcohol.

[Quicksand]

Originally Posted by geckoGT

Personally I think taking a bit of personal responsibility and using you brain is a much better option, it works for most people.

So getting back to the original topic starter...is it the suggestion that this person who asked for a pedestrian breathe test back in Post 1 wasn't taking personal responsibility and using his brain?

Or is the suggestion that more is required...?

I dunno, everyone is saying 'use your brains, take responsibility, take ownership' etc. IMO this person WAS doing that, but for whatever reason the system doesn't support that form of responsibility and brain using.

In the end, anything is possible, its just politics, logistics and gymnastics (haha)

[LTDHO]

Originally Posted by krt10

ok so a little rant here.

last Friday night me and a few mates went out for a few drinks. had a good night and we went to drive home. my mate only had a couple drinks over a few hours (full license too) so he said he would drive. on the walk back to the car we walked past a RBT that was set up.

my mate although 99% sure he was fine to drive ( like i said 2 beers in 4 odd hours) thought that he would check just in case. he is wanting to become a police officer himself and doesn't need any driving record against his name.

anyway we walked up to the RBT (which was deserted) and he asked if he could be checked. the officer replied that she couldn't check him but if he liked he could "drive around to the RBT and get checked in the car"
now who would do that, i mean he was trying to be responsibe and got told that he could drive thru where if he was over (he clearley wasnt) i bet they would have thrown the book at him.

in the end he drove home as he would have been fine but i just thought it was utterly ridiculous

Coincidently I went through a Booze Buss last night. Whilst some ***** would let me merge into the single lane (why would he, courtesy is not a law and whilst correct merging is, it is not clearly policed) and my question is, Where has the manners gone?

OK, the job as an officer sucks and standing in the night air isn’t pleasant, I understand that, but what happened to?
“Good evening sure”
“How have you been today?”
“The air has a chill in it tonight”
“Thanks for helping us with the test”
“Have a good night”

I got;
“Blow until I say stop”
“OK you can go”

This was from a female officer and I have had the same lack of manners from the male ones too.

[sarrge2001]

Originally Posted by LTDHO

Coincidently I went through a Booze Buss last night. Whilst some ***** would let me merge into the single lane (why would he, courtesy is not a law and whilst correct merging is, it is not clearly policed) and my question is, Where has the manners gone?

OK, the job as an officer sucks and standing in the night air isn’t pleasant, I understand that, but what happened to?
“Good evening sure”
“How have you been today?”
“The air has a chill in it tonight”
“Thanks for helping us with the test”
“Have a good night”

I got;
“Blow until I say stop”
“OK you can go”

This was from a female officer and I have had the same lack of manners from the male ones too.

Maybe it's your sparkling personality??

[3vXT]

I like it when they are straight to the point. If they are pulling me over for a rbt i like to get it done and GTFO before they start asking questions about my exhaust or the things under the blanket in the back seat or whats that thumping noise coming from the boot.

If you stop to chat, their terminator senses will discover these things and then its all over.

EDIT: I've tried "these aren't the droids your looking for" and that doesn't work either.

[LTDHO]

Originally Posted by sarrge2001

Maybe it's your sparkling personality??

I always great them with a smile and "Good evening"

[sarrge2001]

Originally Posted by ken2903

I like it when they are straight to the point. If they are pulling me over for a rbt i like to get it done and GTFO before they start asking questions about my exhaust or the things under the blanket in the back seat or whats that thumping noise coming from the boot.

If you stop to chat, their terminator senses will discover these things and then its all over.

EDIT: I've tried "these aren't the droids your looking for" and that doesn't work either.