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18-08-2010, 04:14 PM | #121 | ||||
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Notice how they weren't even willing to put crash test dummies in the Commodore. Guess they figured even inanimate dolls shouldn't be subjected to that much torture.
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18-08-2010, 05:00 PM | #122 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
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18-08-2010, 05:24 PM | #123 | |||
Thailand Specials
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18-08-2010, 05:42 PM | #124 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
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RIDES 76 ZH Fairlane 500, Mushroom Beige, Brown vinyl roof, 351 c4 13.361 @ 104mph 2.001 60ft 208rwkw ZH BUILD |
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18-08-2010, 05:50 PM | #125 | |||
Oo\===/oO
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In the one i posted, A '59 Chevrolet Bel Air is crashed head on with a '09 Chevrolet Malibu, the results are so plain to see, even a monkey with no brains and a bad bong habit could see that the driver of the Bel air is worse off. The Dash, steering wheel, front end all get smashed into the poor dummies face, the full force of the impact is sent right through into that cabin. The dummy hits the roof aswell, suffers allot of movement in every direction (meaning the brain is bouncing off you scull) Now, the Malibu has all the impact absorbed through the front structure (Crumple zones) until it hits the cabin shell, that doesn't suffer near as much impact as the Bel Air, further more, the head is protected buy the airbag. Furthermore, the body stays still...
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18-08-2010, 06:09 PM | #126 | ||
71Mach1
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Melb
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everyone is entitled to their opinion ...
I stop wasting time once logic leaves the room... then you may as well argue whether vanilla tastes better than chocolate icecream...
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roses are #FF0000 violets are #0000FF all my base are belong to you |
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18-08-2010, 06:15 PM | #127 | |||
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18-08-2010, 06:19 PM | #128 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
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18-08-2010, 06:34 PM | #129 | |||
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The correct answer is obviously Choc Chip!!
Why - because its got "crumpled zones" of chocolate
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18-08-2010, 06:51 PM | #130 | |||
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18-08-2010, 07:01 PM | #131 | |||
Fixing Ford's **** ups
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I'll agree you can put an 18" tyre on a 19" rim. Can't guarantee it holding air though. I have no intension of changing your views on car safety features and what you want for your kids. I have expressed my views on what I prefer and you have done the same. if we all liked the same things in our cars, what a boring world it would be. As for AUSSIE AV and you're quote regarding Commodores. Surprisingly enough, the majority of dummies I get in my trade don't drive them. I'll leave you guess what colour the big oval badge is at the front of their cars are? So don't go bad mouthing a particular brand of car driver. I posted up what makes of cars I do own, just to show that I'm not biased towards one make or the other. I'd suggest you open your eyes and stop being so one eyed too towards the blue oval. MODS. My apologies for the abruptness.
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A wheel alignment fixes everything, when it comes to front end issues. This includes any little noises. Please read the manual carefully, as the these manufacturers spent millions of dollars making sure it is perfect.....Now why are there so many problems with my car, when I follow the instructions to the letter?....Answer, majority rules round here Lock me up and throw away the key because I'm a hoon....I got caught doing 59 in a 60 zone |
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18-08-2010, 07:05 PM | #132 | ||||
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18-08-2010, 07:45 PM | #133 | |||
Fixing Ford's **** ups
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Location: In a house
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Part one of your response. There is no training in the world, nor is there any car made that would prevent death, if you're faced with that scenario. So how are the modern features going to work there? They won't. Same applies with an older car. Part 2. There is no guarantee the ABS will work when necessary. There is no guarantee an airbag will deploy when necessary. This is where the false sence of security comes into play. So does my original quote amount to child abuse? I don't think so. It's more the modern features that could be classed as child abuse, because there is no guarantee they will work
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A wheel alignment fixes everything, when it comes to front end issues. This includes any little noises. Please read the manual carefully, as the these manufacturers spent millions of dollars making sure it is perfect.....Now why are there so many problems with my car, when I follow the instructions to the letter?....Answer, majority rules round here Lock me up and throw away the key because I'm a hoon....I got caught doing 59 in a 60 zone |
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18-08-2010, 08:00 PM | #134 | ||
Size it up
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: big blue ball of mostly water
Posts: 591
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It's all about the odds.
5 stars WILL give you the best CHANCE, IF it all goes pear shaped. You may as well stack the odds in your favor as best you can! Sadly, a lot of life's most important lessons can only be learned the hard way, and the hard way aint pretty. |
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19-08-2010, 12:19 AM | #135 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
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Some people just cannot be reasoned with I suppose.
The "more metal between me and what I hit, therefore safer" theory has been disproven countless times in this thread, with clear video evidence and knowledge from GeckoGt who has seen first hand the consequences crashes have on people in old and new cars. Sure, you may feel "more secure" in a larger, stronger built car but surely you can realise that you have less chance of surviving than if you were in a newer car (even if it was smaller). As stated many times before, the energy from the crash must be absorbed somewhere. In newer cars it is in crumple zones and airbags. In older cars with no crumple zones, airbags; a large amount of the force is absorbed by your body which has it not only flailing all over the inside of the car, but also your internal organs (heart, lungs, etc.) sustain a significant amount of inertia, sending them into your ribcage with them deing damaged, punctured, etc. Also, as stated before, car manufacturers have invested billions into making cars safer. If they were so safe in the first place, why bother spending all that money? Newer cars with better saftey ratings are safer. Period. |
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19-08-2010, 12:38 AM | #136 | |||
Constant annoyance
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Everything in this thread has been just that, opinions. There has been pretty pictures and movies, very little in the way of significant data or logic. If this thread is all it takes to convince you one way or the other I find that concerning. Some blokes here seem to think that forums are the epitome of logical debate, and that if you can shout everyone down that you are right and you are the smartest.
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GT Club - no longer for ford enthusiasts, now for fat old men who need air con and power steering for the maccas drive through. |
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19-08-2010, 12:45 AM | #137 | ||
Banned
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I never felt safe in my VF hard top, came with pre rusted chassis rails, heaps of body flex, oh man it was a cool car, but I'd hate to think how bad you'd be in that if you wrecked it, it was a fine example.... But like I said cracked chassis rails (sleeved) would snap like a twig.
I think in car park bumps, with steel bumpers, old cars are winners, but get out on the street, forget it... I'd gladly like to see my FG totaled and written off than my last memory being that of the steering column decapitating me in a pre 80s car LOL |
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19-08-2010, 12:50 AM | #138 | |||
Constant annoyance
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GT Club - no longer for ford enthusiasts, now for fat old men who need air con and power steering for the maccas drive through. |
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19-08-2010, 12:53 AM | #139 | ||||
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SVO Supporter - my sincerest apologies, didn't intend my comment the way you took it, or even consider it could be taken that way until I read your post above. I was trying to make a light hearted comment that the testers obviously knew how bad the outcome of that test would be, and they didn't want to waste the money of having to replace the mannequin which would obviously be destroyed. Please read my comment with the word "mannequin" or "doll" replacing "dummy". Thats how I intended it. Only used the term dummy as that is what they are normally called - crash test dummies. I was not at any time trying to describe Commodore drivers that way ( I still have my VY Commodore that I've been driving for 5+ years). In fact, just re reading it again, if you look at the second line of my comment, "Guess they figured even inanimate dolls shouldn't be subjected to that much torture." you can see that I was talking about the severity of that crash, not making any reference to Commodore drivers.
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19-08-2010, 10:12 AM | #140 | |||||
Ich bin ein auslander
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Loving the Endorphine Machine
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Man, how can you be so wrong? Do you really think ANCAP throw a dummy into a car, slam it into the wall and then say "yeah that looks safe, give it 5 stars, next"? Those dummies are loaded with accelerometers and force detection sensors, as well as being purposely designed to behave in the same way a human would in the crash and have the same mass and density properties of a person in the right areas (for example in an adult the head is 1/8 of total body mass). Each crash produces a mountain of data that they can then analyse and predict injury patterns with amazing accuracy. They are able to predict the injuries after decades of autopsies, advice from leading orthopaedic and trauma surgeon as well as scientific testing of tensile and impact strength of actual human bone tissue. What do you think happens with some of the bodies that are donated to science? They are not all dissected by med students. Now obviously I do not have access to that direct data but I have read some of the reports that result from that data and I have to say their findings and predictions, after looking at the damage to the car and the impact marks, appear to be spot on the money. Yes my knowledge is less scientific and more anecdotal but my opinions are based on real world experince pulling the victims out. I have seen the same marks on the steering wheel, the same deformation of the steering wheel rim, marks on the dash, star impacts on the windscreen etc. I have also seen the real marks and haematomas on a real person, the open fractures, the lacerations and the xrays and CT scans that prove the injuries, the ANCAP predictions are very accurate. The funny thing is that I believed, maybe misguidedly that printed data would not be required, most people are fairly visual creatures and video would get the point across. Perhaps not, not that it worries me as one saying we have in our line of work is "not everyone can be saved", this is not really the context we use that saying but I think perhaps it does apply here. My point here is there appears to be two factions in the debate, those that despite the love of old cars that they may have, can look at the evidence and understand the advances that safety technology has made. Then there are those here that look at the same compelling evidence, discount it and maintain their illogical belief that big old tanks are safer.Thankfully the first group is by far the majority, education of the public does seem to work. I would be interested in seeing a poll attached to this thread just so we can see which way the balance goes. As for shouting people down, I have not used any capitalisation to demonstrate raising my voice, nor would I as to be honest I do not care enough. Every comment that I have made I have backed up with reason and logic, something that others here on the opposing side have not been able to do, not in a way that stands up to any form of scrutiny anyway. Yes it is a topic that I hold dear to me but I can not educate everyone. I just hope some here have learnt something from the examples, the theory and the experience that I have given on this topic. Perhaps they might use that knowledge in their next choice of car and pick the one with side airbags and seat belt pre-tensioners over the one with shiny wheels, a choice that may save their or their family's life one day. If that happens just once, this was my time well spent. Quote:
I actually have no concern that you can not see reason and logic, I am not losing any sleep over it. My only concern is a child's greatest influence over their beliefs and opinions is their parents. Your misguided views, unfortunately will to some extent be passed on to your children and it is very difficult for that attitude to be changed. Now please do not get me wrong, I am not suggesting for a moment that you are a bad parent, just suggesting that in this isolated topic, you are giving poor and dangerous influences to your family. I know that sounds harsh and I guess it is, but that is reality and sometimes reality bites. Quote:
Now one more cold hard fact that has been raised but not really defined, the road toll in australia. In 1982 the road toll for australia was about 3200, in 2008 that figure was down to 1500 with a steady decrease over the span of that time period (a reduction by 1/2). The percentage of deaths in relation to population is even more profound (consider road toll reduces whilst population increases), in terms of number of deaths per 100,000 in population the figure was 23/100,000 in 1982 and 7/100,000 in 2008. That is a reduction by 2/3 when you look at the number of deaths compared to the population. If you do not believe, read it for yourself here. Australian road toll report Now why is this, well the reasons are going to be many and varied as reducing the road toll requires a multi faceted approach ranging from driver education, law enforcement, road quality/design through to vehicle safety and others. The clear leader in this has been vehicle safety, the simple fact is people are surviving crashes today that they did not in 1982. That is a simple fact that no road safety expert, automotive body, manufacturer etc will ever disagree with. The funny thing is in other threads regarding law enforcement threads on this site (i.e speed cameras), the majority of those against speed cameras prop their argument up on this fact. Perhaps if they are wrong and old cars are safer, it is law enforcement that has reduced the road toll and we need more speed cameras to further reduce the road toll (no that is not my belief, just illustrating a point). In this discussion I find the figures for 1982 quite interesting, isn't the average age of a car on Australian roads something like 5-10 years, that would make the largest contributor to the road toll in 1982 mid to late 70's cars (not looking so good for the 1977 valiant). Anyway, that is enough from me for now, yes it is my opinion but I have backed my opinion up with evidence as to where it came from. Please feel free to offer rebuttal but I do ask that you do us all a favour, back your argument up with some evidence. That way people can assess the value of your information and make an educated assessment of it validity, anything less is just unsubstantiated opinion and not really constructive to any real adult discussion. I do apologise if some of my post seems harsh, it is not meant to be harsh, I just believe that a subject that directly relates to the health and well-being of our membership requires careful information that is productive and not damaging. Sometimes that belief requires actions which are perhaps a bit blunt and straight to the point. My final point in this post, before I did the job that I do now and in my early days of motoring, I believed that the big old cars with a mile of bonnet were way stronger and therefore safer than new cars. I truly believed my HK Premier and HT Monaro were much safer. Now I still love those cars and am looking for another HK Premier, but the evidence is overwhelming and I know that my Mini and certainly my F6 are much safer cars, in every way from crash avoidance to crash survival. My attitude changed when I took the rose coloured glasses off and looked at the evidence with an open mind. Now I am off to bed after night shift before I have to get up and do it all again tonight (good news is no crashes last night), good night all!
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19-08-2010, 06:25 PM | #141 | |||
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But I think you'll find it is not nearly the major factor in the severity of injuries as compared to other factors. As has been said many times before improving the safety of the vehicle itself can only go so far to limit the extent of injury human stupidity causes. So don't bother writing another essay, it doesn't make anyone here any more right or wrong. Unless you can come up with some hard data that is peer reviewed you'll have to accept people's opinions on the subject.
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GT Club - no longer for ford enthusiasts, now for fat old men who need air con and power steering for the maccas drive through. |
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19-08-2010, 06:37 PM | #142 | ||
FORMER T3 OWNER
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Location: Brisbane
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xy500
It makes him, me majority on here and EVERY car manufacturer in the world more right then you.. How can you type that and believe what you have just said? there is not one ounce of truth behind the fact that old cars are safer than new cars its like arguing if there is a night/day, its not debatable it just is. Why would manufactures choose to simply, as you are suggesting give away billions each year to safety institutes? to just waste money? they are like any corporation if it didnt have a positive outcome they would have abandoned the theory long ago. No one on here has said that OLD cars are BAD, just that when it comes to your survival in a crash a new car is BETTER. More to the point what qualifications do you have that make you the expert on this matter anyway since your asking the same of all of us?
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Mischief.TV you can sleep in your car, but you cant drift your house... |
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19-08-2010, 06:44 PM | #143 | ||
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 9,292
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Heres a solution:
for those that believe that older cars are safer than newer cars - PROVE IT with some hard documented evidence. There's 10000's of pages of evidence that says newer is safer - back up what you claim by proving the world is wrong if you believe it isnt. I wont be holding my breath waiting. |
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19-08-2010, 06:47 PM | #144 | ||||
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Driver drunk/on drugs/insane - new or old car is irrelevant Driver inexperienced - new or old car is irrelevant. Actually more likely to be in an old car Mechanical failure - new or old car is irrelevant but at a guess more likely to be in an old car Driver not paying attention - new or old is irrelevant Driver on the phone/playing with the stereo - new or old is irrelevant Dropbear jumps out of pothole- new or old is irrelevant hurricane - new or old is irrelevant I found another new vs old crash test for you same model car with 9 years age different. Here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3l4YBf2tjag Its interesting how the engineer said that the old car received more damage because it hit a newer car. Unfortunately I dont think the video does not contain the hard scientific data you are looking. But according to the RTA 17% of crashes are head ons. I would guess the fatality rate of head ons represent a large percent of the road toll hence these crash tests being relevent. Link: http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/licensing/...rashtypes.html |
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19-08-2010, 06:58 PM | #145 | |||
335 - STILL THE BOSS ...
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Everyone has the right to choose what they believe I suppose. Doesn't matter what info is stacked up to back an argument, in an accident some prefer the engine sitting on their lap while others prefer an air bag ........
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'73 Landau - 10.82 @ 131mph '11 FG GT335 - 12.43 @ 116mph '95 XG ute - 3 minutes, 21.14 @ 64mph 101,436 MEMBERS ......... 101,436 OPINIONS ..... What could possibly go wrong! Clevo Mafia [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]Last edited by Auslandau; 19-08-2010 at 07:05 PM. |
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19-08-2010, 07:12 PM | #146 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
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They think this must be the truth and everything else is lies and nothing will ever convince them otherwise because if it was not the truth then THEY WOULD BE WRONG and that can't ever happen can it.......... |
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19-08-2010, 07:25 PM | #147 | |||
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Great link Boosh Brus, same car 9 years apart takes a lot of the variables out of the equation, its purely older technology versus today's technology. Doesn't get any easier to understand than this.
I might have to start watching Fifth Gear when the new digital 7 channel starts next month.
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19-08-2010, 07:42 PM | #148 | |||
Constant annoyance
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Nevermind, no one here seems to be able to read what i'm posting it seems. Not once have i said "older cars are safer than newer cars". re read what i posted and have another think about it.
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GT Club - no longer for ford enthusiasts, now for fat old men who need air con and power steering for the maccas drive through. |
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19-08-2010, 07:46 PM | #149 | ||
zdcol71
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My old man once told me, "When your'e in a hole, stop digging"!!
I always thought it to be pretty good advice.
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: 30 years later |
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19-08-2010, 07:59 PM | #150 | |||
Constant annoyance
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If you get kicked out of a course for stating laws of physics you need to change universities. It's a big part of learning to question your lecturers, if you just take their word as gospel then you haven't learnt what university is about yet - Always learning and improving knowledge. Even lecturers will continue to learn, even from students on occasion.
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GT Club - no longer for ford enthusiasts, now for fat old men who need air con and power steering for the maccas drive through. Last edited by xy500; 19-08-2010 at 08:05 PM. |
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