What was wrong with XR8?

[Poetic Justice]

What can you say that is missing from the formula of the XR8 as opposed to the SS? Understandably the sheep does flock to the Lion badge but what is the absolute highlight between the two vehicles that says that SS should sell more units than XR8 does?

The $600 price tag in 2010 for a manual version of these cars suggests that the XR8 should edge ahead. Perhaps at 290kw versus 270kw sure the FG does, but if those numbers are skewed by the fact that the VE outpaces the FG then you have to wonder if the money is justified, given the hero status most Aussie blokes get from their mates when they bring home a new Holden.

FoMoCo need to be a tad selfish in some respect and at some point consider that it would be wise of them to ensure that the performance and overall package of their XR vehicles is sufficient in selling volume. That being the XR6, XR6 Turbo and XR8 all as part of the strategy. Improve what the car offers, perhaps if redesign bodykit and styling to further differentiate the XR series from the Falcon/G6 series to really highlight the sporty nature that the car is supposed to achieve. I mean, they are obviously putting in R&D dollars into the kit that the XR wears, so why not put a little more thought into it?

I might be wrong on this because my research and general awareness to the Ford product is not nearly as strong as it were a few years back. Working in the motor industry almost desensitises(SIC?) you to being overly interested in new model vehicles and what they feature. Anyhow, the Ford is using at least a locally developed version of the very V8 that is being utilised in the Ford Mustang, am I wrong in assuming this?

If so, I note that on the Ford America website the Mustang can be optioned with the 5.0L Ti-VCT V-8 Engine for the Mustang GT which it tells me produces 402HP (approx 295kw correct?). If FPV was able to develop their engine, could Ford Australia not put in whatever development is required (small as it should be) to make that 295kw read 300kw for it's very own N/A XR8?

Assuming that the 5.0 engine is of a lesser weight to its previous 5.4 predecessor, it should have quite the impact on dynamics of the vehicle (handling, etc.) ...

..and what a selection of power readings you would then have on offer? 270kw XR6 Turbo, 300kw XR8, 315 GS, 335 GT...

Then as a result of putting in this effort to further enhance the XR vehicles, put the onus back on to FPV themselves to improve their own vehicles even further. HSV has no issue rising to the challenge of making themselves considerably different to the SS. I've read plenty of times that the different models available in Ford's FG range can some times be hard to tell apart - even XR8 versus a GT, and understandably a GS. No one here can tell me that they can't spot the difference between an SS Commodore and a Clubsport when they see one!

Of course, all of this is a waste of space if Ford Australia is somehow aware that the future of the Falcon is guaranteed to be limited as of now. Of course, why if this would be the case would Ford Australia put in the investment and effort to redevelop the XR brand only to have it disappear in the near future?

My opinion? If an XR8 doesn't pop up in the FGII range, you can kiss the Falcon as we know it goodbye.

[MONSOON]

the last two pics of VE's in this thread were not even SS', they were sv6's, so the idea that the xr8 looks too much like xr6, well I say it doesn't seem to effect Holden much. I think a n/a 5.0 will have about the same outputs as the BOSS290, of course the lower weight/centre of gravity will do wonders. I think holden 2 tier ss/ssv range is better than Fords option up the base with whatever, a premium XR model would be nice(not GS, which is nearly all motor over a xr8)

[onfire]

Originally Posted by SCUD

Really?

Those two look about as inspiring as each other.

Then take into consideration the time and place.

2002: the BA XR Series was perfect. A fresh design with the key sport orientated features, striking colours and the saving grace Ford AU needed.

2011: the FG is very much the evolution of a vehicle released in 2002, minus the sporty looks the exclusive name plate due to the incredible popularity of the BA/F XR6/8, and you're competing it against the bold and aggressive looking, the very " now " VE SS.

Look I love my Fords. Yet, you need to accept when you're getting beat. And why you're getting beat, and how to turn an obvious weakness into an opportunity and from there.. you guessed it, a successful and powerful product and brand that results in sales.

[landau460]

Originally Posted by onfire

In my opinion, and it's only my opinion here. When I hear the word " XR8 " I expect excitement. I expect a sports sedan, a modern day muscle car. In looks as much as performance.

Now, a lot of people will say, the way their car looked had nothing to do with their purchase, they love the power, the way it drives and handles, etc., and whatever extras came with it.



This is your FG XR8. Look at it.

It looks like every other Falcon on the road. Nothing about this car says excitement from it's looks. There is nothing striking, there's nothing that screams, " I'm a monster of a car. " And believe you me, and put your bias aside... that is a big factor for a hell of a lot of people.

Compare that to the B-Series XR8s. They were defined by their looks. They looked fast, they looked like sports sedans should and they stood out above all the XT & Fairmont models.

Looks and design are everything in this world. To the enthusiast, like so many on here.. maybe not. But to the general public, the mainstream buyers, the Mum & Dad buyers.. the style of a vehicle is the defining factor.

Especially when you're competing with this:



Now I don't expect every one to agree, but I do expect someone to quickly post a picture of their FG XR8 and try to tell me otherwise.

I do agree with the whole excitement thing xt xr differance there is something lacking in that department.
But that ve looks like a stocker with stripes and mags.
The problem with today is that companies run to make money and do what they can to save cost.
I still think that there is to many gadgets in the base model and should go back to making a povo pack car for those who still want a falcon but dont want to pay the big bucks!
There is not enough differance in gadgets from base to high end stuff.

[P6LTD351]

Originally Posted by landau460

I still think that there is to many gadgets in the base model and should go back to making a povo pack car for those who still want a falcon but dont want to pay the big bucks!
There is not enough differance in gadgets from base to high end stuff.

It sure is a difficult one. Back in the 80s and 90s, there was a clear difference between say a Falcon GL and a Fairmont Ghia. These days, the base model gets power windows and a heap of gadgets, whereas these were previously reserved for the 'premium' models.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by landau460

I still think that there is to many gadgets in the base model and should go back to making a povo pack car for those who still want a falcon but dont want to pay the big bucks!
There is not enough differance in gadgets from base to high end stuff.

it isn't by choice. to sell cars, you have to be competitive. anything mid to large size that comes in from offshore has a fairly standard level of basic equipment that was well above what our basic level was.

its got to the point now where things like power windows, seats, climate etc are all just expected, and if you don't have them, the next guy will.

[Revolver]

I havent read everything in this thread, just had a passing glance.

I think the XR8 was a fantastic car. I drove a EB sprint once. But I think it has served its burpose. It gave (in the main) bang for your buck performance & gave its owners a option to really tune & make weapons out of them. While prydey, you look to be worried that the "death" of the XR8 is a bad thing. Me? As sad as it is, I think its a good thing.

Think about it. The XR8 has grown such a big fan base now. But now the 8 has a a sort of rarity to it, even though being a mass produced car. When you own an 8 you would feel a piece of individuality, knowing that only the people who actually own one & not "bought" one off the showroom floor feel the same way. Much in the same way that many iconic names have been in the past. Would the:

-GTHO still be the "pinnacle" of Australian performance cars if still produced?
-The beetles still be a massive success?
-Marylin Monroe or James Dean have a cult following?

I think its safe to say no to all of those. Its that feeling of owning or loving something that you know can never be reproduced & not "truly" appreciating what you have until its gone. There is only one. & The tragic circumstances surrounding its demise only heightens the interest of the subject.

Like I said I think its a good thing. The XR8 is dead. When Ford feels the time is right to revive it then it will be a commercial success. It wiil evoke memories of what alot of people missed out on for all those years when they saw one drive past. Look at the GT range.......

The king is dead, long live the king. May he rise when his kingdom needs him again....

[Neale]

Maybe it was Fords way of forcing people to spend the extra few bucks to get a V8 from the FPV range & at the same time reducing the range of cars to manufacture & saving them money.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Blue Beast II

While prydey, you look to be worried that the "death" of the XR8 is a bad thing.

nope, neither here not there with me. there just seemed to be a lot of hypocrisy on the forum lately regarding v8 offerings from ford. the v8 was apparently no good because the SS and XR6T were faster, but now that ford offer a ballistically fast v8, the numbers don't matter anymore, its the overall package.

there are a myriad of reasons that people have come up with, but the fact is, when it was offered, it wasn't being bought. now that it isn't available, everyone wants one apparently.

[FPV+fteT3]

Personally I liked my BA XR8 MKII good features for the money, 6 speed manual, good seats, nice interior, plenty of power, well priced when compared to similar vehicles at the time, plenty of options for modifying the motor. I now drive the FPV model essentially a tarted up XR8 and still can't really find anything I dont like maybe I am easily pleased or I just like the sound of a quad cam V8 over the 6T, or the whining of the knockers or maybe just maybe the XR8 is a hmm was a good car.
Atleast if FOA have killed it the whingers can finally shut up... Not likely they will now whinge about the GS ooh its too dear, the brakes suck, not as good as the GT or turbo etc... wish we still had the cheaper XR8 so I could rag on it. When all the modular Ford V8's go the way of the dinosour, could be sooner than you think, some of us will be able to say I owned one of them and it went like stink and sounded awesome.
I think a lot of people try to bag something out just to make themselves feel good about their decision to buy what they bought, justify to themselves why they purchased their car most likely a lesser vehicle than the one they are ragging on. Here is an idea no one really cares why you bought your car as long as you like it thats all that should matter. Why do so many feel the need to justify what they have bought to anyone else by belting other peoles choices? The fact is all versions of the XR8 (essentially a budget spec family sport sedan) were special in their own right and will share a place in falcon history.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by SCUD

My opinion? If an XR8 doesn't pop up in the FGII range, you can kiss the Falcon as we know it goodbye.

XR8 is inconsequential to the fate of the Falcon, Ford has a big enough challenge selling bread
and butter XR6s let alone the added engineering cost of a V8 to serve the needs of a select few.

[Falc'man]

Originally Posted by FPV+fteT3

Personally I liked my BA XR8 MKII good features for the money, 6 speed manual, good seats, nice interior, plenty of power, well priced when compared to similar vehicles at the time, plenty of options for modifying the motor. I now drive the FPV model essentially a tarted up XR8 and still can't really find anything I dont like maybe I am easily pleased or I just like the sound of a quad cam V8 over the 6T, or the whining of the knockers or maybe just maybe the XR8 is a hmm was a good car.
Atleast if FOA have killed it the whingers can finally shut up... Not likely they will now whinge about the GS ooh its too dear, the brakes suck, not as good as the GT or turbo etc... wish we still had the cheaper XR8 so I could rag on it. When all the modular Ford V8's go the way of the dinosour, could be sooner than you think, some of us will be able to say I owned one of them and it went like stink and sounded awesome.
I think a lot of people try to bag something out just to make themselves feel good about their decision to buy what they bought, justify to themselves why they purchased their car most likely a lesser vehicle than the one they are ragging on. Here is an idea no one really cares why you bought your car as long as you like it thats all that should matter. Why do so many feel the need to justify what they have bought to anyone else by belting other peoles choices? The fact is all versions of the XR8 (essentially a budget spec family sport sedan) were special in their own right and will share a place in falcon history.

Too true, well said.

[Joe5619]

Is it time to drop the whole "XR" name plate?? XR has become base model anyway, why would you want it for top of the line hero model?

[prydey]

technically, the xt is still the base model but the xr6 offers great value, so it is selling in base model numbers these days.

personally i think the xr6 nameplate has more of a place than xr8. since its inception, it has been a more iconic nameplate i think.

[roberts]

I copper told me once that the government tries to buy equal amounts of ford and holdens for the police cars, this was a few years ago. Its seams to me that the police all drive holdens these day. Surely thats a huge hit to sales.
And as far as the used sales go, in vic your cant drive a v8 or turbo on your p plates so whos going to buy these used/new cars. Which just adds to poor trade in price. Gone are the days a dad might hand the keys of his 3-5 year old car over to his newly licensed son to buy the upgrade model.
Also i might add the age group of people that grew up through the turbo import days the last 10 years would now be old enough to have family's so owning a 2 door turbo sports car is out of the question, but a family car with an engine the same basic specs as a skyline with a rb25det would pull a huge amount of people to the xr6 turbo. I see a middle aged "hoon" in his xr6t spooling through traffic with kids in the back seat daily, where if he was doing that in his skyline/180sx/silvia/supra/wrx the cops would be all over it.
Lastly the types of people that could a-ford a brand new xr8 after we 2 years ago went through the GFC would have to be your older generation that would want to relive the glory days of the v8, but would have to watch the money due to falling house prices and stock market crash.
Just my option but Im sure the brains at ford take these world events into consideration instead of relying on some fake sporting revelry to try and sell cars.

[Bossxr8]

Ford sell the XR6 Turbo to the police as a chaser.

[apfgxr6]

Originally Posted by onfire

In my opinion, and it's only my opinion here. When I hear the word " XR8 " I expect excitement. I expect a sports sedan, a modern day muscle car. In looks as much as performance.

Now, a lot of people will say, the way their car looked had nothing to do with their purchase, they love the power, the way it drives and handles, etc., and whatever extras came with it.



This is your FG XR8. Look at it.

It looks like every other Falcon on the road. Nothing about this car says excitement from it's looks. There is nothing striking, there's nothing that screams, " I'm a monster of a car. " And believe you me, and put your bias aside... that is a big factor for a hell of a lot of people.

Compare that to the B-Series XR8s. They were defined by their looks. They looked fast, they looked like sports sedans should and they stood out above all the XT & Fairmont models.

Looks and design are everything in this world. To the enthusiast, like so many on here.. maybe not. But to the general public, the mainstream buyers, the Mum & Dad buyers.. the style of a vehicle is the defining factor.

Especially when you're competing with this:



Now I don't expect every one to agree, but I do expect someone to quickly post a picture of their FG XR8 and try to tell me otherwise.

if your going to put up pictures for comparisons at least make it apples for apples, not a std xr8 in a common colour compared to a ss-v with opptional 20in wheels and a less common colour. and uggly *** stickers.

[gtxb67]

Originally Posted by apfgxr6

if your going to put up pictures for comparisons at least make it apples for apples, not a std xr8 in a common colour compared to a ss-v with opptional 20in wheels and a less common colour. and uggly *** stickers.

i don't mind the comparison - i would still choose the modern looking falcon over the 15 year bmw based design of the other pos

[Adamz Ghia]

Originally Posted by apfgxr6

if your going to put up pictures for comparisons at least make it apples for apples, not a std xr8 in a common colour compared to a ss-v with opptional 20in wheels and a less common colour. and uggly *** stickers.

Not his fault Ford don't offer the options that Holden do...

[nstg8a]

i was looking at a fg xr8 manual in a yard today, very nice car, but agreed it does look very similar to a xt. its only really the bulge that stands out.

ot but i couldnt believe how much the yard wanted for fg xr6's, 2009 plated for 29k. new one is only a few k more.

[2011G6E]

...a "BMW based design" (the original Commodore was an Opel actually...) is a bad thing?

I'm reminded of Jeremy Clarksons comment regarding how some motoring journalists in England had complained that the styling of the Hyundai Tiburon made it look "too much like a Ferrari". He said "I'm sorry...your $20,000 Korean car looks too much like a Ferrari? That's like complaining because your wife looks too much like Uma Thurmon..."

[gtxb67]

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

...a "BMW based design" (the original Commodore was an Opel actually...) is a bad thing?

maybe not to an extent - even if they did copy the mis-matching front and rear wheel arches

most holden people i know go on about how australian holden are - and then a lot of them agree the new commode dore resembles an old bm

this situation basically shows why the xr8 (and ford in general) has problems. holden can put out any rubbish or copy any other car and the people will buy it. ford put out a very nice looking ford design and yet people do not want it. perception is everything and that perception started back in the first couple of decades of last century when henry did the worst thing for ford. his car was so good and outsold everything else, general motors was formed so under achieving companies could stay alive. and surprise, surprise those under achieving companies have been considered the local car since





i do find it amusing that some people think the xr looks like an xt. i have not spent much time around new fords and yet i can tell an xr from a mile away. the xr does look different and even if it is not that much different, that is a testament to how good the xt looks

[nstg8a]

Originally Posted by gtxb67

that is a testament to how good the xt looks

il agree with that, the fg xt imo doesnt look like a povo spec model, whereas the xt's/forte's/gli's of the past had no illusions of grandeur.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Ford sell the XR6 Turbo to the police as a chaser.

And there in lies the problem.
Yes, Ford could offer the XR6 plus either and upgraded I-6 Turbo or 5.0 V8 with larger front brake rotors
but even after all of that, would the people urging Ford to make and sell it for $39,990 drive away, buy them.

I don't think so. It's this problem of fans that live in the second hand car world complaining
that Ford don't make performance car within their reach but then have no intention of buying one.

This as I see it is the major disconnect between Ford and its fan base compared to team red,
at least their supporters actually go buy products, all we hear from blue corner fans is that they
won't be buying Ford's under achieving or under performing vehicles for whatever pot shot reason.

Some days it tough being a hard core supporter...

[prydey]

Originally Posted by nstg8a

i was looking at a fg xr8 manual in a yard today, very nice car, but agreed it does look very similar to a xt. its only really the bulge that stands out.

they are all falcons. i think a lot of people want each variation of a model to look like a completely different car. an xr8 should look like a falcon. across the whole range the xr is probably the one that is the most different. a G6/G6E from side on, apart from the wheels and small amount of chrome, is the same as a xt and yet i never hear people complaining about it.

[P6LTD351]

Originally Posted by prydey

they are all falcons. i think a lot of people want each variation of a model to look like a completely different car. an xr8 should look like a falcon. across the whole range the xr is probably the one that is the most different. a G6/G6E from side on, apart from the wheels and small amount of chrome, is the same as a xt and yet i never hear people complaining about it.

Exactly. And this is the way it has always been. I think people are looking for excuses not to buy. An XR8, G6E, old Ghias etc were all Falcons. Of course they are going to look like Falcons!!!

Even an XY GHTO looks like its base model brother from side on (apart from stripes, wheels etc). And so it should, after all, it is a Falcon.

[Bud Bud]

Originally Posted by gtxb67

holden can put out any rubbish or copy any other car and the people will buy it.

But is the SS rubbish? I don't think either the SS or the XR8 are crap and I am constantly impressed how much bang for buck (including the turbo) you actually get from the locals.

Originally Posted by jpd80

It's this problem of fans that live in the second hand car world complaining
that Ford don't make performance car within their reach but then have no intention of buying one.

Spot on, there is no point complaining about Ford not making an XR8 if you have no intention of ever buying one. Well said.

Originally Posted by eb2monty

Exactly. this is the way it has always been. I think people are looking for excuses not to buy. An XR8, G6E, old Ghias etc were all Falcons. Of course they are going to look like Falcons!!!

Again spot on, what should they look like??? It is just as stupid as the Monaro looks too much like a 2 door Commodore argument.

If I was from Ford and I was reading this I would be pulling my hair out right about now.

Bud Bud

[gtxb67]

Originally Posted by Bud Bud

But is the SS rubbish? I don't think either the SS or the XR8 are crap and I am constantly impressed how much bang for buck (including the turbo) you actually get from the locals

holden have put out some crap cars and still the sheep flock to them because they are perceived as australian
holden are forgiven much quicker for their rubbish. you only need to look at this forum - people complain their buts off about ford here, and yet holden fans tend to overlook the problems with their cars and stay quiet about them. holden have put out some pathetic engines over their time and they just blame it on choke cables resonating or their customers for using dirty fuel



having said that, i have no doubt if i grew up in a red family, i would be loyal to that brand, while looking at the bad points of ford. they both put out decent cars and they both have problems with some

[roberts]

Originally Posted by prydey

they are all falcons. i think a lot of people want each variation of a model to look like a completely different car. an xr8 should look like a falcon. across the whole range the xr is probably the one that is the most different. a G6/G6E from side on, apart from the wheels and small amount of chrome, is the same as a xt and yet i never hear people complaining about it.

true, but it will only be a matter of time before a 17 year old buys and ex taxi with a millon ks on it, gets a $500 dollar body kit and $500 spray job and his car looks better when driving than you $50,000 car and all of a sudden your swept into the "hoon" target list for the Saturday night revenue raising.
This very thing happened when i had a baII xr8, and all the xt's with gt kits started popping up, my car looked lame in comparison.

[roberts]

having worked in various dealerships over the years I can tell you that men complain like little children in regards to there car, people have been programmed from places like Kmart and target that if you complain enough you get stuff for free, the fact is all new cars have problems they are smashed out of a production line no matter if you get the $18,000 one or the $50,000 one workshops are production lines as well, new cars are unreliable and it funny because by the time the problems are fixed MR ego has to get the new model so the next guys gets a reliable car that he raves about and MR ego starts the complaining process all over again thats the fact of life, forums used to be about enthusiasts but its quite clear that people buy a new car sign up to a forum to have others stroke there ego and congratulate them on there ability to sign the dotted line. So if your see more complainers on forums then normal its simply because ford have been trying to attracted a different market which in the short term yields more sales and in the long term hurts the brand cant have it both ways. But the complainers will complain no matter what they drive.