Country pack, a hypothetical

[flappist]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

If you can convince Ford to build AWD falcons id be all for it, I cant see it happening though as it would detract from Terri sales.

Would you trade your BF AWD wagon on a FG country pack RWD with bigger springs and $500 worth of alloy plate...

You do realise that RTV is RWD not AWD and is a ute with raised suspension, electric lockable diff and some under body protection don't you?

So a BF wagon with RTV bits would in fact BE a country pack.

[FGII-XR6]

after reading this thread right through I have just one thought.
I wonder how many here are dead against this idea purely because it was flappist who started the thread?

[flooded one]

Originally Posted by Brazen

Yeah they were great, but to be honest I would be happy even if we went back to the ground clearance on the AU ute, the AU ute was a great work ute and used to sell up to 2000 units a month. My FG I reckon is around at least an inch lower and sadly sales are dying (last month they sold around 300). The FG base ute looks good but has as much clearance as a Mazda 3 and just doesn't get taken seriously as a work ute anymore.

image
image

I reckon the new FG utes sit lower then my AU ute as well. guess it must be an FG thing?? they should raise the height. let everyone know and then if it is true that people don't buy FG utes because of ground clearance. then maybe falcon ute will sell well again?? thou it might be too late now that everyone had moved too ranger

[flappist]

Originally Posted by Iggle Piggle

86% support on the poll?? How do you get that?

I see two options where people say no, they would not order it, and responses to those two options total close to 50%.

Fair enough one of those options is 'No, but I can see that it might be good for others' - that is still a 'No' response...no, I would not buy it, but others might. They recognise someone else might buy it (ie the other 50% odd of respondants), but those selecting the 'No, but I can see that it might be good for others' option are still saying that they would would not buy it themselves.

So that is about 50% that would not buy it - which still means about 50% would, which is a lot more than I would have expected, so I would still take that as a win for country pack - you don't need to massage the results.

Seriously?

You interpret "I would not buy it" as "NOBODY would buy it".

Do you actually think that the only model and option combination offered should be the one that you personally want and anything else that others might want is irrelevant?

But then if it was $7000 and never sold to Government then 100% would not buy one, well actually that is not true as those who support the idea but feel it should be separate model did not have a price point and and really those who said no, but I can see where others might buy it again had no price point.

The poll shows only 14% stating that they are totally against the concept therefore 86% are positive towards it in some way.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by flappist

Seriously?

You interpret "I would not buy it" as "NOBODY would buy it".

Do you actually think that the only model and option combination offered should be the one that you personally want and anything else that others might want is irrelevant?

But then if it was $7000 and never sold to Government then 100% would not buy one, well actually that is not true as those who support the idea but feel it should be separate model did not have a price point and and really those who said no, but I can see where others might buy it again had no price point.

The poll shows only 14% stating that they are totally against the concept therefore 86% are positive towards it in some way.

That's BS.
The poll asks if you WOULD buy a country pack, the only real answers are yes or no, anything else is non committal and is worth nine tenths of bugger all.

[flooded one]

Originally Posted by prydey

the only thing that looks lower is the front bumper. the rest of it looks about the same ground clearance.

oh, and the fact that hilux, ranger, navara, patrol, triton etc do a much better job has nothing to do with the declining sales of the falcon ute, its because its got a lower front bar. yeah right!

the only thing hilux has over falcon is clearance and a 4 wheel drive option. compare a petrol 2.7L against a falcon cab chassis and the falcon ****** all over it. even fuel economy is better with falcon. ground clearance and four wheel drive are big sellers these days.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by flappist

You do realise that RTV is RWD not AWD and is a ute with raised suspension, electric lockable diff and some under body protection don't you?

So a BF wagon with RTV bits would in fact BE a country pack.

His wagon utilises AWD terri bits., a BF wagon with AWD components would be an AWD Falcon.
Like I said, id be all for it but I doubt Ford would.

[FGII-XR6]

actually the poll looks at a number of different parameters to determine overall interest in and the views of members on the potential this pack has to boost falcon sales to a wider cross section of the buying public, rather than giving a black and white response that may not accurately reflect the feelings of members

Originally Posted by BENT_8

That's BS.
The poll asks if you WOULD buy a country pack, the only real answers are yes or no, anything else is non committal and is worth nine tenths of bugger all.

[BENT_8]

Here's what I know...

A Ford Forum was polled on the idea of a country pack option available to Falcon buyers.
Of the 61,000 members only 108 voted.
Of those 108...
55 have said they don't want it personally.
4 said yes if it was free.
19 said yes if it basically made no profit for Ford (sub$2k)
8 would fork out fair coin for It ($4-6K).
And 19 want the return of the RTV which didn't sell well enough before.

Some how I don't think Ford are listening...

[FGII-XR6]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

Here's what I know...

A Ford Forum was polled on the idea of a country pack option available to Falcon buyers.
Of the 61,000 members only 108 voted.
Of those 108...
55 have said they don't want it personally.
4 said yes if it was free.
19 said yes if it basically made no profit for Ford (sub$2k)
8 would fork out fair coin for It ($4-6K).
And 19 want the return of the RTV which didn't sell well enough before.

Some how I don't think Ford are listening...

if they couldn't put that together for 2K there is something wrong. Ride height would cost nothing as they would just order some springs a bit higher the wheels on most models would cost nothing as alloys are common fitment now and might save money on some as they have 18s or larger. the question was asked to see what interest there was but some members seem content to ridicule the very existence of the poll rather than engage in intelligent debate (difficult for some members unfortunately).
About half of the respondents have indicated that something along these lines is a winner and might be a purchase option for them not bad odds if you ask me it now comes down to the configuration that is the most desirable package

[JG34JA]

Originally Posted by flappist

Now as for the niche:

Please list out for me luxury high performance sedans, Australian made preferably but not mandatorily, that are available in both low ground clearance large sporty rims and slightly higher ground clearance and slightly smaller rims (note slightly does not mean 300mm with truck tyres).

My XW GS Fairmont 302: Option 28 Super Duty Shock Absorbers, Option 13 Heavy Duty battery, Option 45 Limited Slip Diff. Amongst some other options, I think I've got your 'country pack' right here Flappist. Pity I can't buy one new.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

Here's what I know...

A Ford Forum was polled on the idea of a country pack option available to Falcon buyers.
Of the 61,000 members only 108 voted.
Of those 108...
55 have said they don't want it personally.
4 said yes if it was free.
19 said yes if it basically made no profit for Ford (sub$2k)
8 would fork out fair coin for It ($4-6K).
And 19 want the return of the RTV which didn't sell well enough before.

Some how I don't think Ford are listening...

Well actually they would have to be reading not listening.

Originally Posted by BENT_8

Mind you, im not in the market for a new Falcon so my opinion is proberbly irrelevant.

For someone who has no interest in the subject of this thread you seem rather bellicose, especially since one of au3xr6's earlier posts.

[JG34JA]

I've traveled a great part of country Australia for work. A very large majority of the south can be done in a Falcon type vehicle, with some concession to ground clearance and the other options Flappist mentioned. Product planners used to know this. You don't need the Cruiser, and I know as I traveled in an old one and my back still remembers this.

A return of the RTV option would be very interesting just as the medium SUV class is increasingly being revealed as having not-much off road ability.

As I haven't quite learned how to post pics etc, try this link - here is the 'Outback' ute from the XG series, packed with goodies to make your Falcon ute go that bit further:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/aussief...ts/3816530377/

[Brazen]

Don't forget the taller suspension allows better ingress and egress for the elderly people and more height for mums in traffic.

[FGII-XR6]

http://www.4wdonline.com/Ford/Falcon.html

back in the day Ford saw the need to take the Falcon into harsher teritory

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by flappist

Well actually they would have to be reading not listening.

I take it from that my findings are supported.

Originally Posted by flappist

For someone who has no interest in the subject of this thread you seem rather bellicose, especially since one of au3xr6's earlier posts.

No, that's how you are interpreting it.
If this thread was about XR 8's or Wagons you'd be the first to proclaim that lack of interest brought about their demise and that if you want either of those buy a GS or Terri respectively.

Im simply pointing out that a lack of interest brought about the demise of Fords previous country packs be it Falcon options back in the day or RTV recently.
This has nothing to do with who started the thread and would be my opinion regardless.

Something that does annoy me is the segregation which is evolving on this forum whereby anyone who doesn't buy new Ford products cant post an opinion on the particular subject matter because they aren't prepared to lay down their hard earned.
Last time I looked this was a Ford Forum, not a new Ford Forum so evry member has the right to an opinion on Fords new or old.
I don't buy Classic Fords either, but that doesn't mean I cant appreciate their relevance.
The only reason the old 'you don't buy so you have no input' line comes up is to discredit peoples opinions.
Now, who's line is that anyway...

[Brazen]

Maybe the market has evolved beyond what the normal Falcon offers anymore. Does anyone buy a normal height Falcon anymore? Mums and elderly like more ride height, fleets, active families and rural buyers want more ground clearance....

I would almost say something like the country pack suspension should be standard, higher ride height to make the car more versatile and practical, winning back the traditional Falcon buyers and fleets who have migrated to SUVs. I would get rid of the country pack name though, call it 'lifestyle' or 'versatile' suspension.

Go in order a Falcon, you get two choices. Would you like your Falcon with lifestyle or sports suspension?

[FGII-XR6]

that's a good idea reserve the sportier suspension for the XR and GT and raise the rest with sport suspension as an option. Falcons have steadily become lower chasing a sportier image but losing more practical buyers. I recently bought an NF Fairlane and it had been lowered quite a bit and it annoyed me, I put standard height springs in and the ride is better and entering driveways is now a pleasure

Originally Posted by Brazen

Maybe the market has evolved beyond what the normal Falcon offers anymore. Does anyone buy a normal height Falcon anymore? Mums and elderly like more ride height, fleets, active families and rural buyers want more ground clearance....

I would almost say something like the country pack suspension should be standard, higher ride height to make the car more versatile and practical, winning back the traditional Falcon buyers and fleets who have migrated to SUVs. I would get rid of the country pack name though, call it 'lifestyle' or 'versatile' suspension.

Go in order a Falcon, you get two choices. Would you like your Falcon with lifestyle or sports suspension?

[302 XC]

AU3XR6,
Re the XY 4x4 ute ,
It would be just as much of a flop now as it was then ....
Ford aren't interested in investing money on new cars to become legends 40 years later
Think 40 years ago, what 4x4s could you buy new, hardly any compared to now
Build something 4x4 platform with the falcon in mind,it would have to be price compared to everything else out there,and many have the years and the ks to retain the brand loyalty

[BENT_8]

Putting a set of standard springs into a lowered NL and getting a better ride isn't rocket science.
Anyone who remembers driving those X/E series falcons remembers they were floaty boats in standard guise from new.
The whole reason why we have lowerd vehicles is to provide a better feel.
The offset is ride height, but how many people would want an FG that rode like a EL?
What is being proposed here is not just whacking a set of taller springs in.
It would require different shock rates, suspension geometry, and the required testing and calibration.
I just cant see how selling a few dozen units per month, some of those to existing falcon buyers, would be financially viable as a factory option.

[FGII-XR6]

I wasn't proposing a 4X4 falcon just pointing out that ford have been offering falcons suited for rougher roads for a long time . it wasn't sales that killed the 4X4 XY it was ADR compliance difficulties

Originally Posted by 302 XC

AU3XR6,
Re the XY 4x4 ute ,
It would be just as much of a flop now as it was then ....
Ford aren't interested in investing money on new cars to become legends 40 years later
Think 40 years ago, what 4x4s could you buy new, hardly any compared to now
Build something 4x4 platform with the falcon in mind,it would have to be price compared to everything else out there,and many have the years and the ks to retain the brand loyalty

[Brazen]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

The whole reason why we have lowerd vehicles is to provide a better feel.
The offset is ride height, but how many people would want an FG that rode like a EL?

It didnt bother the 80,000 people who bought an EL each year.

And I can assure you, nearly every SUV on sale rides worse than a EL, yet their sales are record breaking. FG is the best handling Falcon ever but has the worse sales in 50 years, even the Captiva outsells it.

And this is exactly the problem, these are large Aussie family cars which have somehow become judged on how they handle a racetrack rather than how they handle everyday life.

The young men who develop Falcon nowadays need to step back and look at not what they want in a car, but instead what the market wants. I think the market wants what they got out of Falcon in the 90s - versatile, practical, continent-crossing, good value family cars.

Low riding FGs are great for the young guys who buy them second hand at auction or the Ford employees who buy them at staff rates, but is unappealing to the families, fleets, baby boomers, grey nomads, sales reps, and small businesses who are actually the big sales drivers in market.

Sure keep the brilliant performance Falcons, but have some variants the rest of the market wants.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by Brazen

It didnt bother the 80,000 people who bought an EL each year.

That is true, but an EL in 96 was considered a good ride compared to an XF
EL characteristics wouldn't cut it in 2013.

Originally Posted by Brazen

And I can assure you, nearly every SUV on sale rides worse than a EL, yet their sales are record breaking. FG is the best handling Falcon ever but has the worse sales in 50 years, even the Captiva outsells it.

And this is exactly the problem, these are large Aussie family cars which have somehow become judged on how they handle a racetrack rather than how they handle everyday life.

The young men who develop Falcon nowadays need to step back and look at not what they want in a car, but instead what the market wants. I think the market wants what they got out of Falcon in the 90s - versatile, practical, continent-crossing, good value family cars.

Low riding FGs are great for the young guys who buy them second hand at auction or the Ford employees who buy them at staff rates, but is unappealing to the families, fleets, baby boomers, grey nomads, sales reps, and small businesses who are actually the big sales drivers in market.

Sure keep the brilliant performance Falcons, but have some variants the rest of the market wants.

Well a good friend of mine (70yo ex engineering lecturer with TAFE SA) owns a new FG in stock trim and a 17' caravan .
He has recently completed a number of trips both west and east/northeast with the van and has absolutely no issues with the current ride height or suitability.
Recently 4 of us went to a bowls tournament at Redhill here in SA, the combined weight of the 4 of us would be 350kgs and we had a boot full of heavy bowls bags.
At no stage did we experience issues with the ride or ground clearance and although most of the trip is national highway 1 it is far from metropolitan dual carriageways of Sydney and Brisbane.

You guys are making the Falcon out to be something its not for the sake of the thread title.
Falcons in standard trim are capable of handling Aussie conditions and have done since 1965.

[Gothefalcon]

Guys, The original question was not a hard one.... If an "Outback Pack" (or by any other name) was an option on Falcon... would you buy one ?

Several variants were given as options (no doubt... there could be more) to choose from.... all that was needed was to either pick one... or ignore them all.

It's just a question...

It's great to see that there are so many poeple, really passionate about "their" cars (etc) on these Forums... but it's unfornate to see some, letting thier passion get in the way of, what should be, friendly debate :(

Personally.... I love my Falcons.... I grew up seeing city folk & country folk driving Falcon based cars all over the place ! Utes on farms or construction sites.. Fairlanes & LTDs pulling horse floats, big boats and taking the boss into the office or the Cocky to town... Beautiful GTs in the city and roughies in the bush... Taxi's or someone's pride and joy... there seemed to be a version for everyone !!?? The FG is a great car that Aussies should be proud, it's made here, by "us"... it's just a pity it's not made with all of "us" in mind anymore :(

Yes... I built an AWD Falcon Wagon... partly because I thought it would be an interesting challenge... but mainly because I love what the Falcon Wagon offers as a daily drive and I didn't want to lose that, and buy an AWD/4x4 "something else" and lose all that the Falcon gives me ! It's a personal choice, I'm happy I'm allowed to make... thanks to the great Country we live in !

I agree.... and RTV style Wagon (or sedan) would essntially be a Falcon with an "Outback Pack"... but it would probably be considered the "extreem" version of that ! To me... it would make sense to offer both as options ! Maybe that's just me... but judging by the feedback I get from my Wagon (& my Mates RTV Wagon)... I reckon quite a few other people would agree !??

For those that think I should have just bought a Terry (or something else similar)... You may be missing my point... I just wanted My Falcon to be able to take me where I wanted to go... and get me back !

Perhaps more people would buy Falcons... if they could option it into "Their" Falcon for what they want to do with it... like you used to be able to do, not all that long ago !!??

For those that prefer to buy something else which suits their needs better... that's OK too !!

D

[Gothefalcon]

Originally Posted by au3xr6

it wasn't sales that killed the 4X4 XY it was ADR compliance difficulties

And the fact the new XA Ute bodies weren't as rigid as the XY's ! Yes.... the XY's front end had to be braced to cope.... but the XA's use of the coupe doors and slender "A" pillars meant that the cab area would also needed some extra bracing... so it fell into the "too hard" basket.... unfortunately :(

[dallasv8]

good poll.an RTV sedan would be bloody sweet.
i currently drive an 03 RTV and have had it for quite a while.its now got over 288oookm on it and has seen better days but has been a bloody brilliant and reliable car.
i live near Dimbulah in north qld and the roads arent very nice,i also do a fair bit of dirt driving.
so far this year we have had around 30 odd skippys hit the car,and shes covered in stone chips.i would love to fit all terrain tyres on it but sadly thats not an option for the RTV which is a topic well discussed on these forums.
the mrs and i have been talking of upgrading to a newby but the 53g price tag of a ranger isnt really appealing.although the high clearance,diff lock and tow bar are.
we like the g6,xr6 and mondeos but first time up the driveway we would most likely tear the bumper off on an anthill.(about 1km of dirt driveway)
so at the moment its between a territory or a kuga,but i dont think you can get a bull bar for the kuga and neither offer a manual.damn i miss the days of manuals being the basic option.
and NO, other brands are not an option for me.im a Ford tragic and will not buy anything else.

[Gothefalcon]

Originally Posted by dallasv8

good poll.an RTV sedan would be bloody sweet.
i currently drive an 03 RTV and have had it for quite a while.its now got over 288oookm on it and has seen better days but has been a bloody brilliant and reliable car.
i live near Dimbulah in north qld and the roads arent very nice,i also do a fair bit of dirt driving.
so far this year we have had around 30 odd skippys hit the car,and shes covered in stone chips.i would love to fit all terrain tyres on it but sadly thats not an option for the RTV which is a topic well discussed on these forums.
the mrs and i have been talking of upgrading to a newby but the 53g price tag of a ranger isnt really appealing.although the high clearance,diff lock and tow bar are.
we like the g6,xr6 and mondeos but first time up the driveway we would most likely tear the bumper off on an anthill.(about 1km of dirt driveway)
so at the moment its between a territory or a kuga,but i dont think you can get a bull bar for the kuga and neither offer a manual.damn i miss the days of manuals being the basic option.
and NO, other brands are not an option for me.im a Ford tragic and will not buy anything else.

To do an RTV style conversion to an FG wouldn't be all that hard.... FG's already have a wider track than the AU/BA/F (& body.. so no flares required)... so add the taller springs & shocks at the back from a Terry.... and at the front.... turn the top arms upside-down & swap sides (basically all they did with RTV)... and then modify the lower arm pivot points by making new ones that bolt onto (or are welded onto) the existing cross-member... add a slightly taller spring... and slightly longer arms on the steering rack... and the longer flex brake lines from a Terry too... and you have your lift ! The RTV's Diff locker wont fit in the IRS cradle... but their are plenty of other options out there which would fit inside the existing diff housing, and pretty much do the same job ! Add a bash plate to the underside... Job done !
The hardest part would be relocating the lower control arm pivot points... but if you're not up to that yourself... then any 4x4 joint that does big lifts on 4x4s should be able to assist with that ("in their sleep" I would imagine) and it would have to be certified by an Engineer too !!
Same would go for the front of an FG Ute... and as it's back end chassis/suspension is the same as AU-BF... then BA/F RTV componentry would be used there ! As mentioned before.... the FG already has a wider track... so the Locker centre would need to be fitted into the FG Utes diff housing (if required/desired) !

[302 XC]

Originally Posted by Brazen

It didnt bother the 80,000 people who bought an EL each year.

And I can assure you, nearly every SUV on sale rides worse than a EL, yet their sales are record breaking. FG is the best handling Falcon ever but has the worse sales in 50 years, even the Captiva outsells it.

And this is exactly the problem, these are large Aussie family cars which have somehow become judged on how they handle a racetrack rather than how they handle everyday life.

The young men who develop Falcon nowadays need to step back and look at not what they want in a car, but instead what the market wants. I think the market wants what they got out of Falcon in the 90s - versatile, practical, continent-crossing, good value family cars.

Low riding FGs are great for the young guys who buy them second hand at auction or the Ford employees who buy them at staff rates, but is unappealing to the families, fleets, baby boomers, grey nomads, sales reps, and small businesses who are actually the big sales drivers in market.

Sure keep the brilliant performance Falcons, but have some variants the rest of the market wants.

That's bang on,nail on the head
Look at Toyota for a sec, people comment "There fridges on wheels,boring as bat droppings",sure they mite be to the small minority ,but to the millions and millions who buy new every year they are fine
Ford are goin down the girggler because they are marketing limited stuff to limited people

[max_torq]

Could ford supply a roo bar with a falcon that would pass the ADR etc?

anyway, its low-volume, niche, and we know now ford doesn't do that. So, No... the territory is more suitable.

[Iggle Piggle]

Originally Posted by flappist

Seriously?

You interpret "I would not buy it" as "NOBODY would buy it".

Umm, no, I interpret "I would not buy it" as "I would not buy it". Seriously!

I was looking at the poll in terms of interest/demand for country pack, not 'support' for it.

Originally Posted by flappist

Do you actually think that the only model and option combination offered should be the one that you personally want and anything else that others might want is irrelevant?

No, and can you show me where I said that?

Originally Posted by flappist

But then if it was $7000 and never sold to Government then 100% would not buy one, well actually that is not true as those who support the idea but feel it should be separate model did not have a price point and and really those who said no, but I can see where others might buy it again had no price point.

The poll shows only 14% stating that they are totally against the concept therefore 86% are positive towards it in some way.

Great that so many are positive towards it, but doesn't change the fact that 50% would actually buy it, not 86%. I said I think 50% responding they would buy it is still a very positive result and validates what your dealer mate said.

I just don't think 'support' should be confused for 'demand'.

If 1% had responded silly idea, 4% responded they would purchase, and 95% said "No, but I can see why others would want it", you would have 99% support for the idea, but Ford being a business would still see 96% saying they would not buy it.

Do the same poll for extinct models such as wagon or Fairlane, and you will find many people will also respond that they would not buy one themself but think someone else might (small numbers of people were still buying these models when they were canned, just not enough to justify continuing them). Does that 'support' justify bringing them back? Not in my opinion - but the way you are framing it, if you think one person might buy a Fairlane or wagon, then you support the idea of bringing them back, even it you would not buy it yourself.

Now having said that, this poll does show a level of demand/interest in a country pack, and a country pack would be a cheap option to implement, not an expensive full-blown model like wagon/Fairlane - it was just an example that a high level of 'support' (as you are defining it) does not mean a high level of sales.