Final FPV sparks kilowatt controversy (GT-F vs GTS)

[fgpsi]

Lol blownvn pls

[b0son]

I don't really understand Ford's position. How can they be unhappy with the result? 351= rwkw? If so, they're the only manufacturer selling product in Aus who is using that method AFAIK. Why don't they just publish a realistic fwkw figure? At least then, it would be clear whether there was an issue with car, dyno, or whatever. Instead, Ford are deliberately cagey, not wanting to publish a figure in case its not backed up on the dyno by a customer, but at the same time, want Chinese whispers to spread the word about how much power your engine 'really' makes. Talk about lack of faith in your own product....

[hootar]

2242100 im not doubting you, sounds fair, but If that's so then can an you work out that again based on the figures motoring got.

And everyone has stated that the GTS has way sticker tyres then the Dunlops on the GTF. So does that mean that the GTF has more tyre slip hence it's making more rwkw then your calculations??

[1TUFFUTE]

I love you guys....this thread is finally progressing in the right direction screw you wheels,SM and or any other journo to screw over Aussie muscle cars with bias or stupid testing methods and so on.

Oh and boson.....maybe it's a bit useless for ford to push hard with an official power figure, seeing as with things like the torque management and transient boost, there's always going to be bigger variances. Espescially in cooler/hotter climates. Just a thought.

[Elks]

Ford / FPV use hub mounted Dynos. I've seen them. You remove the drive wheels and bolt it to hub in place of the wheels. There is no slip. No unknown variables, just accurate measurement.

I'm sure HSV would be the same.

[LoudPipes]

.

My head hurts.

[2242100]

Originally Posted by hootar

2242100 im not doubting you, sounds fair, but If that's so then can an you work out that again based on the figures motoring got.

And everyone has stated that the GTS has way sticker tyres then the Dunlops on the GTF. So does that mean that the GTF has more tyre slip hence it's making more rwkw then your calculations??

I think they only have revs shown on the sheets, no idea of the wheel speeds.

On the sticky tyre thing, the Ford is geared to run to a higher speed in 4th so even if the power is equal the torque will be lower.

Whatever the case though the others are right. they should put both cars on the same HUB Dyno.

[82XD393.3v]

i think the fpv mat slipped under the accelerator at the wrong time i don't think anyone at wheels or sm have the intelligence to **** this up its the dyno op

[SensationFG8]

If its all due to tyre slip how come the hsv got the same reading with both tests?

[Taily]

Originally Posted by b0son

I don't really understand Ford's position. How can they be unhappy with the result? 351= rwkw? If so, they're the only manufacturer selling product in Aus who is using that method AFAIK. Why don't they just publish a realistic fwkw figure? At least then, it would be clear whether there was an issue with car, dyno, or whatever. Instead, Ford are deliberately cagey, not wanting to publish a figure in case its not backed up on the dyno by a customer, but at the same time, want Chinese whispers to spread the word about how much power your engine 'really' makes. Talk about lack of faith in your own product....

Just throwing out a possible scenario here... It may be that the Ford engineers saw what the original results were, scratched their collective noggins and thought "geeze, we've seen it do better than that result, there must be an issue with an (injector/plug/coil/sensor/even the ECM itself - whatever, just insert possible/probable issue here)" so asked for the car back to have a good look themselves for the problem. They found the issue then gave it back (like any owner/builder would) for another shot at the dyno. It may just be "one of those things" and the car presented with an unknown issue on the day. The car itself would have been copping a flogging over the previous couple of weeks (being what it is) anyway, so more than likely probably needed attention.

I'm not naīve by any stretch of the imagination (just a qualified mechanic who went a long way further than most in the field did before walking away from the industry), but talk of conspiracies etc may just be as simple as that...

But then again, none of us were there so no one really knows for sure what Mr BlownVN says is 100% accurate or if he truly believes the insinuation he made is true....

[banarcus]

Splitting hairs here people.

Just line both cars up at the track and see who wins. Wheel slip, transient over-boogie, pushrods and sun in your eyes; there's no other way than to sort this out other than to run both cars down the line.

[hootar]

Originally Posted by 2242100

i think they only have revs shown on the sheets, no idea of the wheel speeds.

On the sticky tyre thing, the ford is geared to run to a higher speed in 4th so even if the power is equal the torque will be .

? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?

[duaned]

I bet after this controversy is over you all will still be subscribers to the Wheels, Street Machine etc. enterprise!

[Elks]

Originally Posted by duaned

I bet after this controversy is over you all will still be subscribers to the Wheels, Street Machine etc. enterprise!

Wrong. Because of this and a dozen episodes like it, I stopped buying them years ago.

[galaxy xr8]

I haven’t bought a Wheel’s mag or SM mag let alone any magazine for 22 year’s, and I don’t plan on buying any in the future either, they won’t be getting any of my money for their senseless dribble.

I honestly don’t understand why people buy them anyway.

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by galaxy xr8

I haven’t bought a Wheel’s mag or SM mag let alone any magazine for 22 year’s, and I don’t plan on buying any in the future either, they won’t be getting any of my money for their senseless dribble.

I honestly don’t understand why people buy them anyway.

Something to read on the plane..thats about it.

[galaxy xr8]

Originally Posted by Polyal

Something to read on the plane..thats about it.

I’d rather take a I pod and listen to music or look out the window or watch the in flight movie or read a paper, anything then that dribble.

[LoudPipes]

Originally Posted by galaxy xr8

I honestly don’t understand why people buy them anyway.

For the pictures.

[MercuryT]

Originally Posted by Taily

Just throwing out a possible scenario here... It may be that the Ford engineers saw what the original results were, scratched their collective noggins and thought "geeze, we've seen it do better than that result, there must be an issue with an (injector/plug/coil/sensor/even the ECM itself - whatever, just insert possible/probable issue here)" so asked for the car back to have a good look themselves for the problem. They found the issue then gave it back (like any owner/builder would) for another shot at the dyno. It may just be "one of those things" and the car presented with an unknown issue on the day. The car itself would have been copping a flogging over the previous couple of weeks (being what it is) anyway, so more than likely probably needed attention.

I'm not naīve by any stretch of the imagination (just a qualified mechanic who went a long way further than most in the field did before walking away from the industry), but talk of conspiracies etc may just be as simple as that...

But then again, none of us were there so no one really knows for sure what Mr BlownVN says is 100% accurate or if he truly believes the insinuation he made is true....

Yep, agree and well said.

I think by far the most likely answer to this "issue" has nothing to do with theories of Ford or Holden tweaking cars, the workshop fudging the figures, tyre slip and so on.

The Ford GT has tested higher on average in a previous model, so considering it would have more power again being the latest model it clearly suggests a fault with the car used for the test - I would think this this would happen quite regularly with customers cars.

Fault was addressed, and the next dyno run is more in line with expectations....

[stazza]

Well how convenient that the car should have troubles as soon as its in wheels' hands.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by 2242100

Actually I suspect the loss figures would probably be a bit higher for these heavy hitters, so let's say 55 kW.

i appreciate you have tried to come up with a logical explanation, but this 'loss' figure just isn't realistic. i doubt the GTS with its heavy duty trans, 9 inch diff etc only loses about 12-13% to the wheels.

[galaxy xr8]

Originally Posted by LoudPipes

For the pictures.

Thats about all they are good for is the pictures...as their stories and journalism is far from that of a intellectual standard.

[2242100]

Originally Posted by prydey

i appreciate you have tried to come up with a logical explanation, but this 'loss' figure just isn't realistic. i doubt the GTS with its heavy duty trans, 9 inch diff etc only loses about 12-13% to the wheels.

I tend to agree, I just didn't get to going into that detail, the HSV would likely lose a bit more power, perhaps that might even push it a fraction over 430.

But I can't see HSV underquoting the power by any significant amount.

[Charliewool]

Originally Posted by HO 3

Yeah it may be as simple as the car carrying the wrong tune originally, ie the 335 tune and not the correct new 351 tune.

Cheers Mick

Just on this.... Can one of our tuners out there please tell us where the pretty substantial HP gains are made when tuning these things?? (no add-ons, just tuning!)
AND, fill us in how big a part the TPS has in chasing high numbers?

[Franco Cozzo]

Probably removing fuel limitations put in to save the driveline?

[2242100]

Originally Posted by SensationFG8

If its all due to tyre slip how come the hsv got the same reading with both tests?

Actually, I've seen several runs within about a killowatt on a dyno that was clearly getting over a 10% loss in speed.
With steel knurled rollers it doesn't seem to be like on a road surface where a car might slip one time and not on another run.

Whatever the reasons though, if the outside of the tyre tread is turning at say 100 kmh and the rollers are turning at 90, then you would expect the Dyno's software to give a 10% lower reading because it doesn't know the true speed of the car's wheels.

[xr6turboford]

Originally Posted by LoudPipes

For the pictures.

Funny you would say that for when the misses finds the playboy it's for the articles.

[SensationFG8]

Given the car has a speedo and the roller speed can be measured why don't people take a reading from both places and compensate?

This slip explanation just isn't quite sitting well in my mind. That could just be my lack of understanding though.

Edit: 2 dynos 2 days did only the 311 gtf run slip? You implied the hsv one did too.

If that was the case then for slip to be plausible the only run that didn't slip would have to be the motor gtf run due to the closeness of both hsv runs on both dynos.

[Bonn]

Originally Posted by galaxy xr8

Thats about all they are good for is the pictures...as their stories and journalism is far from that of a intellectual standard.

They've been Import-rooters for decades now, running down locally built and designed product and talking up the overseas equivalent.
Great for local manufacturing............not.

"ooh the 'S' Class mercedes is soooo much better than an XT FG"
"Can't wait to get back into my Audi/Lexus/VW/Infinity"

[Wretched]

Originally Posted by Bonn

They've been Import-rooters for decades now, running down locally built and designed product and talking up the overseas equivalent.image
Great for local manufacturing............not.image

ah so hang on, how can they have driven local manufacturers into the ground when they're Holden biased and rely on kick backs from Holden?

"ooh the 'S' Class mercedes is soooo much better than an XT FG"

Cause it is so much better.

"Can't wait to get back into my Audi/Lexus/VW/Infinity"imageimage

Well funnily enough they would drive them considering manufacturers give them long term cars to drive around in. Why would you own a daily driver when you're given a variety of them to drive around in?