1200 ford workers to be stood down without pay tonight

[sleekism]

Some interesting points raised and I daresay that I agree to a large amount of them but I must admit that I am benefiting from the laziness of youth.

Like you have said there is a skills shortage and I myself am benefiting from the shortage of professional engineers as you seem to benefiting from a skills shortage yourself.

The sad thing is that debates like this seem to be confined to internet forums instead of in the public spotlight like it should be.

[|||]

lol at national service suggestions. by the time kids are that old they either have respect or they dont. you cant teach an old bogan new tricks.

if they're too dumb to work out how to get by in life without help then so be it.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by ltd

Personally, I think the youth deserve a lot of the blame for societies ills, they have gotten to working age and are semi-illiterate. They aren't curious enough to enquire as to how things work or why things are done that way, they seem to be preoccupied with everything but the task at hand.

Don't you think its more our governments fault that kids are semi illiterate. Its there job to fund the schools to teach kids how to read and write. Just shows the education system isn't working.

[ltd]

Agree sleekism, although the gap year thing they have now is proving to be really popular with school leavers not sure what they want to do, and it also takes them out of their cushioned, emo lifestyle.

As for |||, they are able to be taught once removed from their support network of home and friends, and they develop new friends who become like minded in life experience. I don't think we should write the whole exercise off because some people believe that a person is unteachable. Think of the military as a correctional school for the nefarious.

[ltd]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Don't you think its more our governments fault that kids are semi illiterate. Its there job to fund the schools to teach kids how to read and write. Just shows the education system isn't working.

Not really, simply because teaching has become such an easy course to get into, we are getting those not necessarily literate becoming teachers and teaching their bad habits. Also, the teachers have applied their own personal opinions to the classroom, confusing kids further. Rewriting history from Captain Cook's landing to the "Invasion of Australia" only serves to stroke the ego of the insipidly useless. Singing songs about the alleged stolen generation and teaching it to Australians as an irrefutable fact adds to the confusion.

No, teachers and the teachers union have made it impossible to recognise a childs progress in school through a ludicrous marks system which is only based on positive reinforcement, not results based. If you had a child who could not read or write would you be happy with the teacher giving him/her a passing grade in english? Or would you want them to be forthright so you could do something about it? Molly coddling does nothing but ensure that kids are made to feel good even though they may be inept in a particular arena.

Finally, the government does fund schools, and regardless of what the teachers union say the public schools do get the lions share of public funding, but this funding is distributed through the states who are essentially a black hole of inefficiency and incompetence. By the time the funding gets through the states 10 million for one school becomes 5 million with the rest off to consolidated revenue to make up for administration costs and future capital works based on a user pays system akin to double dipping. Then the revenue typically gets siphoned off to consolidated revenue for the purpose of keeping the bloated, inefficient and useless public service rolling along (at a loss mind you).

[Mark351]

Originally Posted by sleekism

Sorry to get off track but it seems odd how conservatism and consumerism can go hand in hand. My main concern is that Australia is becoming a "stupid" country just look at the dedication and inteligence of German and Japanese students and you will no what mean (German eschange students can write and spell English better than most Australian)

And yes I do realise the irony that my post is full of spellig errors but Im tired

Wouldn't dedication and inteligence (sic) propel you to correct your dodgy spellig (sic) despite being tired?

[Wally]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

What a futile waste of time and money... i feel for all the genuine workers who clearly just wanted to go to work and earn their pay...
Ironically the selfish few who cause or call these strikes end up costing themselves and their co-workers more money in lost earnings from not working that they gain from the resolution, and cause untold damage and expense to their employer, which ultimately jeopardises their job security...

There are better ways to seek a solution to a dispute, striking is the stupidest.

So if you were made redundant and found out your superannuation top up, accumulated sick pay, accumulated long service, etc which was part of your salary/wage packet was not going to be honoured, you'd just walk away without a whimper?

You sound just the right sought of employee I'm looking for. I would think us capitalist business owners need more of your kind (we have an obligation to the shareholders you know :evil3: ) to make Australia strong...... that's why we run profitable business' you know, to make Australia strong and look after the welfare of employees. LOL.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by Wally

So if you were made redundant and found out your superannuation top up, accumulated sick pay, accumulated long service, etc which was part of your salary/wage packet was not going to be honoured, you'd just walk away without a whimper?

You sound just the right sought of employee I'm looking for. I would think us capitalist business owners need more of your kind (we have an obligation to the shareholders you know :evil3: ) to make Australia strong...... that's why we run profitable business' you know, to make Australia strong and look after the welfare of employees. LOL.

Ok, for starters the staff have a legally binding entitlement to their super, annual leave and long service leave (after 6 years of service) BY LAW... Black and White.. so they can take legal action to recover it should they leave, be made redundant or the company fold.
As far a sick leave goes unless you take it because you're sick why on earth would you be entitled to have it paid out if you leave?????

[nugget378]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Ok, for starters the staff have a legally binding entitlement to their super, annual leave and long service leave (after 6 years of service) BY LAW... Black and White.. so they can take legal action to recover it should they leave, be made redundant or the company fold.
As far a sick leave goes unless you take it because you're sick why on earth would you be entitled to have it paid out if you leave?????

It may be law mate,but the way corporations are structured if they close the doors,open up somewhere else under another entity the chances of them getting any money are nill,the banks will get first crack at any money and the poor old worker will be way down on the list.
I have seen this happen many times,funny how when they are making a heap they say "I deserve every cent" but when something like this happens,and they havent funded the employees super and entitlements properly,the directors get to bankrupt the company,close the doors,and not have a cent of their personal millions available for the employees,
I know of more than a few companies in my industry not paying the payg tax contributions,simply bankrupting and trading under another one the very next day,it went on for a while mind you,and the tax departement had the hide to go after the workers,who never saw this money,one company owner still drives around in a lamboghini this very day,and is still trading under some name.Thankfully the unions took action and the principal contractor was made to pay the tax owed.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by nugget378

It may be law mate,but the way corporations are structured if they close the doors,open up somewhere else under another entity the chances of them getting any money are nill,the banks will get first crack at any money and the poor old worker will be way down on the list.
I have seen this happen many times,funny how when they are making a heap they say "I deserve every cent" but when something like this happens,and they havent funded the employees super and entitlements properly,the directors get to bankrupt the company,close the doors,and not have a cent of their personal millions available for the employees,
I know of more than a few companies in my industry not paying the payg tax contributions,simply bankrupting and trading under another one the very next day,it went on for a while mind you,and the tax departement had the hide to go after the workers,who never saw this money,one company owner still drives around in a lamboghini till this very day,and is still trading inder some name.Thankfully the unions took action and the principal contractor was made to pay the tax owed.

This is a very complicated area of law mate, and a very complicated scenario to enter but as briefly as i know from talking to my solicitor and getting business advice:
If they deliberatly (or otherwise) bankrupt the company without making provisions for payment of employee entitlements and payment of taxes they face a VERY real risk of going to jail.
On top of that they also may forfeit any dividend or profit distribution payments back as far as a few years, they can ask for these to be returned, not to mention seizure of Director and company assets to be sold to pay out these Taxes and benefits.
Forensic accountants will comb the books going back a few years and look for trends, shifting of funds or assets and all the little things that may have been done.
Under the new laws the directors are in big POO if they don't payout the staff entitlements prescribed by law, things have changed recently and ASIC and the Tax dept don't muck around...
The unsecured creditors like suppliers come second to the tax dept, staff and secured creditors like the bank etc..
In any event im not sure how hurting the profitability of this business by striking will make their entitlements and more secure.. id say it would have the exact opposite effect.

[nugget378]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

In any event im not sure how hurting the profitability of this business by striking will make their entitlements and more secure.. id say it would have the exact opposite effect.

We wont ever agree on this so ill leave it here.
Just to say that you look at it one way ie: the workers are hurting the company.
I look at it another,if the directors would just pay up,there would be no need for strikes and hurting anyones job.
All they have to do is pay what they OWE,simple really.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by nugget378

We wont ever agree on this so ill leave it here.
Just to say that you look at it one way ie: the workers are hurting the company.
I look at it another,if the directors would just pay up,there would be no need for strikes and hurting anyones job.
All they have to do is pay what they OWE,simple really.

Ahhhh... now were getting to the crux of it..! the company hasn't stopped trading, nobody has missed out on their entitlements yet, nothing illegal or wrong has happened yet to the employee's, just rumour, innuendo and gossip from what i can work out!

[4Vman]

Further to that i "believe" they're arguing over redundancy entitlements, NOT weather they'll be paid out their annual leave, superannuation, long service leave etc..

[steamin63]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Ok, for starters the staff have a legally binding entitlement to their super, annual leave and long service leave (after 6 years of service) BY LAW... Black and White.. so they can take legal action to recover it should they leave, be made redundant or the company fold.
As far a sick leave goes unless you take it because you're sick why on earth would you be entitled to have it paid out if you leave?????

firstly, who pays for the "legal action " if the workplace ombudsman refuses to persue the matter [which is more often the case] , the employee ,usually thousands of dollars.

secondly, payouts for sick leave are built into some eba"s as a productivity bonus. if you dont use your sick leave you get a percentage of those hours paid out in cash usually between 50 & 75 percent. incentive not to take 'sickies'.

thirdly, some one else mentioned national service. it costs $200,000 just to put one soldier through basic training.who in their right mind would waste $1 on some one who would not want to be there any way. i agree kids today are generally f@cked up but the army is not the answer. the problem lays with society and the parents. the people who make this statement usually dont know which end of a styer the round comes out of.

cheers.

[SPK-250]

Sorry to interupt but can someone fill me on with whats going on at the facility in regards to an end in strike action. I have been given till Wednesday off at which point i have to ring a phone number at work to see if i have to turn up on Thursday.

Cheers Guys

[CAT600]

Originally Posted by steamin63

thirdly, some one else mentioned national service. it costs $200,000 just to put one soldier through basic training.who in their right mind would waste $1 on some one who would not want to be there any way. i agree kids today are generally f@cked up but the army is not the answer. the problem lays with society and the parents. the people who make this statement usually dont know which end of a styer the round comes out of.

cheers.

I appreciate the fact that you wrote "usually" as the cap does not fit here. I have been brought up by a militarian father who has seen elite service and who had brothers serve as "Nashos" it worked for them, myself and all my cousins. We are respectful, decent people between the ages of 14 and 64.

National service works, and would work if implemented. You rip a 17 year old $h!thead away from his little mates and his mummy and drop him back into society after 2 years in the services. I guarantee you will get your money back over the course of his life, in taxes (harder working), lower welfare costs (less inclined to lay on a beach smokin' dope) and lower public services expenses (crime reduction) to name a few reasons. Not to mention a defense force that would'nt be stretched by both a trip to Dili and sandbagging a flood in north Queensland happening at the same time.

Instilling respect and discipline is something the armed forces has/does/will continue to do, without fail on people of this age. Parents, as a general rule, have proven they are not capable of bringing children up properly for the last 20 - 30 years. Do you have a better alternative?

Daniel

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by CAT600

I appreciate the fact that you wrote "usually" as the cap does not fit here. I have been brought up by a militarian father who has seen elite service and who had brothers serve as "Nashos" it worked for them, myself and all my cousins. We are respectful, decent people between the ages of 14 and 64.

National service works, and would work if implemented. You rip a 17 year old $h!thead away from his little mates and his mummy and drop him back into society after 2 years in the services. I guarantee you will get your money back over the course of his life, in taxes (harder working), lower welfare costs (less inclined to lay on a beach smokin' dope) and lower public services expenses (crime reduction) to name a few reasons. Not to mention a defense force that would'nt be stretched by both a trip to Dili and sandbagging a flood in north Queensland happening at the same time.

Instilling respect and discipline is something the armed forces has/does/will continue to do, without fail on people of this age. Parents, as a general rule, have proven they are not capable of bringing children up properly for the last 20 - 30 years. Do you have a better alternative?

Daniel

Its the parents job to raise their kids properly and teach them values, not the goddamn army. National service would just be a bandaid approach to fixing a problem that should have never been a problem in the first place if their parents did a decent job of raising them in the first place. Sure that isn't always the case but how is that the armys problem to solve.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by SPK-383

Sorry to interupt but can someone fill me on with whats going on at the facility in regards to an end in strike action. I have been given till Wednesday off at which point i have to ring a phone number at work to see if i have to turn up on Thursday.

Cheers Guys

Ford are trying to force them back to work through the industrial relations commision today, so you'll just to wait and see. Talks are still going on.

[CAT600]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Its the parents job to raise their kids properly and teach them values, not the goddamn army. National service would just be a bandaid approach to fixing a problem that should have never been a problem in the first place if their parents did a decent job of raising them in the first place. Sure that isn't always the case but how is that the armys problem to solve.

Agreed. But parental guidance dosent work as a general rule these days. Got a better idea than mine?

Daniel

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Ford are trying to force them back to work through the industrial relations commision today, so you'll just to wait and see. Talks are still going on.

Lets hope this gets resolved, I pass the car park, every day to get breakfast, where the line workers normally park and its bad to see so many empty spaces.

[Wally]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Ok, for starters the staff have a legally binding entitlement to their super, annual leave and long service leave (after 6 years of service) BY LAW... Black and White.. so they can take legal action to recover it should they leave, be made redundant or the company fold.
As far a sick leave goes unless you take it because you're sick why on earth would you be entitled to have it paid out if you leave?????

Like I suggested, you are just the type of employee that suits Workchoices. A no hastle type guy that won't cause trouble when it comes to redundancy provisons, especially as the employer is entitled by law to use the funds as he sees fit, which will probably be some phantom venture that went leg up.

One thing's for sure, once the liduidators move in there won't be any money for anyone else except the tax man. You just have to pray that there is a relative of John Howard going to get stiffed and then you'll get federal payoffs, obviously not from the paper shuffling public servant's Future Fund though.

[jabba]

Originally Posted by CAT600

I appreciate the fact that you wrote "usually" as the cap does not fit here. I have been brought up by a militarian father who has seen elite service and who had brothers serve as "Nashos" it worked for them, myself and all my cousins. We are respectful, decent people between the ages of 14 and 64.

National service works, and would work if implemented. You rip a 17 year old $h!thead away from his little mates and his mummy and drop him back into society after 2 years in the services. I guarantee you will get your money back over the course of his life, in taxes (harder working), lower welfare costs (less inclined to lay on a beach smokin' dope) and lower public services expenses (crime reduction) to name a few reasons. Not to mention a defense force that would'nt be stretched by both a trip to Dili and sandbagging a flood in north Queensland happening at the same time.

Instilling respect and discipline is something the armed forces has/does/will continue to do, without fail on people of this age. Parents, as a general rule, have proven they are not capable of bringing children up properly for the last 20 - 30 years. Do you have a better alternative?

Daniel

I agrea

Bossxr8.. Most parents these days are to bussy looking after themselves let alone looking after there childern and teaching them proper morals to live by..

I for one believe the cane should be brought back into school.. And National service would work....

[[Tonko]]

Originally Posted by CAT600

In the current economic environment, anybody that is worth their salt will have a job already lined up. You cannot get staff these days (let alone good staff) so it stands to reason that if the employers treat workers unfairly or below par on their conditions, they'll walk. 10 years ago at the mining dealership I worked at, if somebody pulled the pin, everybody in the place knew about it and went into a flat spin. Thesedays, it's a daily occurance. There is no loyalty or character in people anymore and employees will walk for 50c/hr or a rough word said.

Bleh, Turn it up.
You cant find good workers? I have been looking for ANY full time work for over a year now, but instead am stuck with 3 jobs and 70+hrs a week!
Most employers would prefer to hire their mates kid or whoever knows them than actually do some leg work and a few interviews/trials.
Mate, i have handed out probably 100 resumes in 12 months, and have been called in for an interview maybe 10 times.
Im at the stage of my life where i want a decent job and start savings etc. but no employer wants to train people.
Pfft, I'm over it. I'd prefer to be taxed out the *** than put up with a character bashing, dissmissive person like yourself. Maybe its YOUR attitude?
-Noel.

[CAT600]

Originally Posted by TonkoXR8

Bleh, Turn it up.
You cant find good workers? I have been looking for ANY full time work for over a year now, but instead am stuck with 3 jobs and 70+hrs a week!
Most employers would prefer to hire their mates kid or whoever knows them than actually do some leg work and a few interviews/trials.
Mate, i have handed out probably 100 resumes in 12 months, and have been called in for an interview maybe 10 times.
Im at the stage of my life where i want a decent job and start savings etc. but no employer wants to train people.
Pfft, I'm over it. I'd prefer to be taxed out the *** than put up with a character bashing, dissmissive person like yourself. Maybe its YOUR attitude?
-Noel.

Unreal! This is where the problem starts. What people term as a "decent job" is not what it was 10-20 years ago. Everybody wants the 'creme de la creme' and nothing less will do. If I had to, I would shovel for a living if thats what it took to support my family.

I do not know what line of work you are in, and I do not presume to know/judge you or your work ethic, but I will say this: If you (personally) have been around, and are a good hand, you should have no problem getting a job anywhere in this country at the moment. There is 3-4% unemployment ATM and about 5% of the workforce don't want to work so we actually have too many jobs. I never hire extended family/friends - dosent work, so count me out on that one.

My comments relate to young people (school leavers onwards), so back to that:

There are many young people these days who, if they cannot get a job as a rocket scientist straight out of school, will just lay on a beach and do SFA. I've got mates that finished their time as a Plant Mechanic (some did'nt even finish) and either got on a plane to Europe or jumped in a panel van to go around Australia for the next 3-4 years. Most of them have Dad's who:

1) Are Farmers
2) Own their own Diesel Fitting service
3) Own Thier own Plant and Equipment Hire company
4) Don't want to work and only got a trade because they were told to get something "to fall back on later in life" What a F*%king joke.

GET OFF YOUR *** AND MAKE IT HAPPEN!

Forge your own destiny, that's what life is all about.

Daniel

[CAT600]

Just noticed your profile. Priceless.

Originally Posted by TonkoXR8

Birthday:
April 2, 1987

Biography:
nah, cant think of anything

Location:
In hell...a.k.a Shepparton

Interests:
bludging

Occupation:
I hate them...

Maybe YOUR attitude required adjustment huh?

Daniel

[The Stylist]

Fifth business day of strike action, I hope something can be resolved soon for all parties involved.

[vztrt]

Well Venture is meant to going back to work tomorrow (Industrial Commission has ordered them, from what I heard).

[Tles]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Its the parents job to raise their kids properly and teach them values, not the goddamn army. National service would just be a bandaid approach to fixing a problem that should have never been a problem in the first place if their parents did a decent job of raising them in the first place. Sure that isn't always the case but how is that the armys problem to solve.

It would have to have more value than a Youth training facility - Why feed them and leave them sitting on their cheeky ***** when you can give them a chance to shine and teach them enough respect to give them some hope. Jail and all that is becoming pointless and irrelevant - more a badge of honour than a deterrent. Time this whole Country hardened up!

OT Why should all the financial assistance go to the first home buyer? - most of our friends are both working and paying off the second or third rental, while they live back at home and travel. The friends I mention have gone to uni on HECS support and had rent assistance and all that, they were all fullycut by the time I got off work to join them for a beer and overseas whenever they felt like it. Then the Government gives them handouts to buy a house and so on just as they start earning for themselves, so they claim back the tax deductions too. They are set for life which is great and they won't need a pension or anything like that which is tops for all too. My point is that they could have done it on their own anyway. Instead the taxes we paid, cut the equivalent of ten years off their financial plans. This system is a joke, half the time they change jobs every six to twelve months, because they can.
We worked from 15 on in fulltime jobs with overtime, no help from anyone. Whilst we are now well enough off, it is from hard yakka and doing renos and stuff in our spare time and not living the high life.


Give the financial support or stampduty relief to families with kids, or one on the way so that they can afford to build or buy the house they have worked hard for and deserve, to live in as a family. They can then look after their own kids rather than daycare-grandparents-daycare, handballed more than AFL, while they both work to pay at least one wage to the banks in interest.

That is where the rebates will have the best and biggest effect - in the so called mortgage belt. The great Aussie dream realised.
This will mean young singles and couples are more restricted buying and investing in smaller homes and units which they can afford to pay off quicker and then sell to start families, providing the market with more quality affordable homes for those who need them most, those trying to stop renting.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by vztrt

Well Venture is meant to going back to work tomorrow (Industrial Commission has ordered them, from what I heard).

Given its effected so many other associated businesses including Ford I wonder ultimately how much this action will end up adding to the cost of a car for consumers...

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by CAT600

Agreed. But parental guidance dosent work as a general rule these days. Got a better idea than mine?

Daniel

Making the parents accountable for their childrens behaviour is a good place to start.