Roundabout Incident - Who is at Fault?

[Mechan1k]

Originally Posted by Bevsta007

It really is a poor design and signage.

If straight ahead lane (as it seems) is actually the left turn, why does it have two lanes feeding into it?

according to the arrows beforehand there should be only one "first exit"

It's for the prior entry point to allow it to exit there ... as it will be "straight-through" for them.

But I do agree ... a poor design/signage/lane markings.

[FoxtrotGolfXray 5.0]

Originally Posted by xeeclipse

IT'S A SINGLE LANE ENTRY ROUNDABOUT!!!!!!!!!!!

How can anyone put the blame on the RED vehicle I will never know??!!!!!

solid line or not the driver in the ute should throw his keys away. I'm by no means an exemplary driver but.....hang your head in shame!!!!!

Not quite sure what you are looking at to determine it is a single lane entry to the roundabout.

Here's a screenshot from google maps. fittingly, the red car at the entry to the roundabout is in about the right position for the video incident too:



Note that both the entry, and the exit onto Macquarie Rd is a two lane carriageway.

[Vesper Martini]

Originally Posted by Mechan1k

It's for the prior entry point to allow it to exit there ... as it will be "straight-through" for them.

But I do agree ... a poor design/signage/lane markings.

see what your saying , so really its a case of merging.

(lets say the red car had come form another entry) I know it has but..

the 4WD is therefore undertaking in the roundabout cutting the red cars exit off

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Bevsta007

If straight ahead lane (as it seems) is actually the left turn, why does it have two lanes feeding into it?

if you enter the roundabout from the entry to the right of the road in the footage, which looking at the satellite map in post #114 is either maquarie rd or Henderson rd, then you are able to exit on to maquarie road from the right lane.

technically there is no 'straight ahead' on a roundabout. you enter a roundabout, and exit a roundabout. a roundabout is its own road. if you are exiting at the first exit, you indicate left. if you are going beyond the first exit, you indicate right, and then left as you approach your exit. yes, i'm aware this doesn't happen, and most people assume that if there is no indicator it means you are exiting at the 2nd exit, which in most cases, is the continuation of the road you were on. i'm also aware that the size of some roundabouts isn't conducive to indicating 'off' the roundabout, but the law doesn't care. my argument is, had the ute driver indicated right, due to going past the first exit, the red car would have seen, and had the red car been indicating left, although an illegal manoeuvre, the ute may have been aware of the intention. indicators are fitted for a reason. they are to let people know of your intentions, not to let them know what you just did.

the line markings are irrelevant on the roundabout. technically it isn't an unbroken white line. its just a dividing line, albeit slightly longer.

the arrows on the road leading up to the roundabout are very clear. it doesn't surprise me though, that many people don't see these, as people don't pay attention to the task of actual driving anymore.

This footage, and the subsequent discussion is why I never approach a roundabout at speed, and never assume right of way regardless of whether a main road intersects with a secondary road. a roundabout is an intersection. treat it as such. it may cost you a few seconds but can save you a lot more, as we have seen.

[Vesper Martini]

PS I Lived near the "Magic Roundabout" in England.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRznoYCJOHg

with a bit of courtesy it all works well

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Bevsta007

(lets say the red car had come form another entry) I know it has but..

the 4WD is therefore undertaking in the roundabout cutting the red cars exit off

correct. the 4wd has to give way to anyone already on the roundabout, so even though his left lane was clear, he would've had to give way to the red car, had the red car already been on the roundabout from an earlier entry.

[roKWiz]

Oh dear. I can not see this thread going away soon.

[Citroënbender]

Originally Posted by roKWiz

Oh dear. I can not see this thread going away soon.

It’s easy.
1. Blame the taxi
2. Blame the cyclist
3. Leverage off Godwin’s Law of the Internet

[Vesper Martini]

Originally Posted by prydey

correct. the 4wd has to give way to anyone already on the roundabout, so even though his left lane was clear, he would've had to give way to the red car, had the red car already been on the roundabout from an earlier entry.

Yep IMO he could have easily let the red car go first and wouldn't have been held up at all..

[Mechan1k]

Originally Posted by Citroënbender

It’s easy.
1. Blame the taxi
2. Blame the cyclist
3. Leverage off Godwin’s Law of the Internet

You forgot to blame the main culprit ... and that's the truck driver.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by prydey

if you are going beyond the first exit, you indicate right, and then left as you approach your exit. .

See I don't agree with this entirely Rob, imagine you're in the left lane, or where the ute is in the video provided and a vehicle enters in the right lane from Macquarie rd, the previous entry point to your right, if he indicates right on entry it basically says to you in the left lane that he is heading for the same exit as yourself (Henderson rd) which means although you should proceed with caution, you should be ok, however, if he then cancels the right hand indicator whilst halfway between his entry point and yours and puts his left hand indicator on he now has full right of way over you to exit on the Macquarie rd exit and if you've taken his initial indication as making a right turn you can find yourself at fault should you collide for failing to give way.

My belief and practice has always been if continuing straight ahead through a roundabout don't indicate at all on entry allowing the cars at the next entry to know you aren't changing path and then at the half way point indicate left so that anyone approaching from the left knows you're about to exit across their path.

On a different note, only last week I approached a dual lane roundabout, Kings rd/Martins rd Parafield gardens from Kings rd east side in the bus from the left lane intending to continue straight ahead, a car coming from the opposite direction kings rd west side,didn't apply his right hand indicator until he was half way around the roundabout and i'd already taken him as continuing on straight in the direction I had just come from, I then see his indicator come on and he makes a right turn towards me which puts me in the wrong even though technically i'd done nothing wrong other than assume he was doing what he was presenting, luckily I saw it coming and bailed left into the road he was exiting on and crisis was averted but had I been in the right lane with a car on my left I could have found myself in the same situation as old mate in the red car.

I'd take a roundabout over a set of lights any day just because traffic can flow when possible, but as soon as someone who has no idea enters the same one as you, it can head south real quick.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by Bevsta007

Yep IMO he could have easily let the red car go first and wouldn't have been held up at all..

Why would he, the red car shouldn't be turning left from that lane so there should be no need to be 'held up'.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by psychobimbo

Not quite sure what you are looking at to determine it is a single lane entry to the roundabout.

Here's a screenshot from google maps. fittingly, the red car at the entry to the roundabout is in about the right position for the video incident too:

image

Note that both the entry, and the exit onto Macquarie Rd is a two lane carriageway.

Looking at the colouration of the road surface would it be fair to assume this was once a single lane roundabout which has been widened to be a dual lane situation, certainly looks like it from that screenshot.

[GasoLane]

Originally Posted by xeeclipse

IT'S A SINGLE LANE ENTRY ROUNDABOUT!!!!!!!!!!!

How can anyone put the blame on the RED vehicle I will never know??!!!!!

solid line or not the driver in the ute should throw his keys away. I'm by no means an exemplary driver but.....hang your head in shame!!!!!

Your right, it's a single lane.....TWO single lanes actually

Originally Posted by xeeclipse

Can anyone apart from sensible mexicans read arrows here???

Ah, that'd be the arrow that points to straight ahead in the red cars lane would it?

[DK30RB]

I don't even know why this is a debate. Yes the roundabout is poorly marked. Common sense should prevail.

You wouldn't ordinarily turn right from the left lane, Cam car on left should only consider proceeding straight through the roundabout. Red car could either go straight or veer right.


Cam car should really pay more attention as he approached the red car from behind at excessive speed and had a better view of the situation around him. Red car was most likely looking forward and to the right and was not expecting to be clobbered from left rear.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by DK30RB

Cam car should really pay more attention as he approached the red car from behind at excessive speed and had a better view of the situation around him. Red car was most likely looking forward and to the right and was not expecting to be clobbered from left rear.

Whilst I agree that the cam car could have proceeded with more caution, had the red car stayed in his lane and obeyed both written instructions upon approach he wouldn't have been clobbered at all..

The funniest thing in this thread is the poll results as there's a few in there who got it wrong which raise eyebrows and others who leave you saying, doesn't surprise me at all...

[FoxtrotGolfXray 5.0]

Originally Posted by prydey

if you are exiting at the first exit, you indicate left. if you are going beyond the first exit, you indicate right, and then left as you approach your exit.

Not in accordance with Victorian road rules, as I interpret them. Here's the ruling (again, my bolding):

112 Giving a left change of direction signal when
entering a roundabout
(1) This rule applies to a driver entering a roundabout
if—
(a) the driver is to leave the roundabout at the
first exit after entering the roundabout; and
(b) the exit is less than halfway around the
roundabout.
(2) Before entering the roundabout, the driver must
give a left change of direction signal for long
enough to give sufficient warning to other drivers
and pedestrians.
Penalty: 3 penalty units.
Note
Left change of direction signal is defined in the dictionary.
(3) The driver must continue to give the change of
direction signal until the driver has left the
roundabout.
Penalty: 3 penalty units.
(4) This rule does not apply to a driver if the driver's
vehicle is not fitted with direction indicator lights.
Note
Driver's vehicle is defined in the dictionary.

113 Giving a right change of direction signal when
entering a roundabout
(1) This rule applies to a driver entering a roundabout
if the driver is to leave the roundabout more than
halfway around it.
(2) Before entering the roundabout, the driver must
give a right change of direction signal for long
enough to give sufficient warning to other drivers
and pedestrians.
Penalty: 3 penalty units.
Note
Right change of direction signal is defined in the
dictionary.
(3) The driver must continue to give the change of
direction signal while the driver is driving in the
roundabout, unless—
(a) the driver is changing marked lanes, or
entering another line of traffic; or
(b) the driver's vehicle is not fitted with
direction indicator lights; or
(c) the driver is about to leave the roundabout.
Penalty: 3 penalty units.
Notes
1 Driver's vehicle and marked lane are defined in the
dictionary.
2 Rule 117 deals with giving change of direction signals
before changing marked lanes, or entering another line
of traffic, in a roundabout.
3 Rule 118 requires a driver, if practicable, to give a left
change of direction signal when leaving a roundabout.

The important distinction with the rule is not necessarily the exit number, but moreso whether the exit is before or after the halfway point of the roundabout. So, in the scenario you have given above, if you are to leave the roundabout at the halfway point, there is no requirement to give any signal. Interestingly, the rules are silent on the requirements for leaving the roundabout at the halfway point.

[GT0132]

Red car possibly at fault as it seems he turned left from a lane he could only go straight ahead or do a right hand turn in.

But….that was hardly a typical left turn and seemed pretty straight so maybe the red guy thought left was actually straight. To give weight to that line of thinking the road had two lanes when both entering and exiting to the left so he probably thought it was Ok to do so.

Not sure if contributory negligence can be attributed to the cam driver as he seemed to change lanes quite abruptly and over what looked to be a solid line albeit only a brief one and whether or not he indicated. Regardless of whether he was otherwise right to move the car between lanes requires he must give way to traffic in the lane he's entering (according to NSW law) which he failed to do.


Drivers may change lanes in a roundabout if they wish. The usual road rules for changing lanes apply. Drivers must use their indicator and give way to any vehicle in the lane they are entering.

[FoxtrotGolfXray 5.0]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

Looking at the colouration of the road surface would it be fair to assume this was once a single lane roundabout which has been widened to be a dual lane situation, certainly looks like it from that screenshot.

I think the colouring you are referring to is the map overlay on google maps in satellite view. It leaves the map carriageway colourings over the top of the satellite photo.

Originally Posted by DK30RB

I don't even know why this is a debate. Yes the roundabout is poorly marked. Common sense should prevail.

Just goes to show that common sense is not so common!

[Mechan1k]

This is just going around in circles.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

See I don't agree with this entirely Rob, .

I did say 'technically' it's what should happen.

Also indicators don't nullify the give way rules.

[prydey]

Also worth noting that there are many generations of people driving around and the rules have been modified over the years so while the use of indicators might seem unnecessary to the older folk and sometimes confusing, it is the law now and it is what is taught to the current generation.

[FoxtrotGolfXray 5.0]

Originally Posted by Mechan1k

This is just going around in circles.

I see what you did there....

[prydey]

Originally Posted by psychobimbo

Not in accordance with Victorian road rules, as I interpret them. Here's the ruling (again, my bolding):

112 Giving a left change of direction signal when
entering a roundabout
(1) This rule applies to a driver entering a roundabout
if—
(a) the driver is to leave the roundabout at the
first exit after entering the roundabout; and
(b) the exit is less than halfway around the
roundabout.
(2) Before entering the roundabout, the driver must
give a left change of direction signal for long
enough to give sufficient warning to other drivers
and pedestrians.
Penalty: 3 penalty units.
Note
Left change of direction signal is defined in the dictionary.
(3) The driver must continue to give the change of
direction signal until the driver has left the
roundabout.
Penalty: 3 penalty units.
(4) This rule does not apply to a driver if the driver's
vehicle is not fitted with direction indicator lights.
Note
Driver's vehicle is defined in the dictionary.

113 Giving a right change of direction signal when
entering a roundabout
(1) This rule applies to a driver entering a roundabout
if the driver is to leave the roundabout more than
halfway around it.
(2) Before entering the roundabout, the driver must
give a right change of direction signal for long
enough to give sufficient warning to other drivers
and pedestrians.
Penalty: 3 penalty units.
Note
Right change of direction signal is defined in the
dictionary.
(3) The driver must continue to give the change of
direction signal while the driver is driving in the
roundabout, unless—
(a) the driver is changing marked lanes, or
entering another line of traffic; or
(b) the driver's vehicle is not fitted with
direction indicator lights; or
(c) the driver is about to leave the roundabout.
Penalty: 3 penalty units.
Notes
1 Driver's vehicle and marked lane are defined in the
dictionary.
2 Rule 117 deals with giving change of direction signals
before changing marked lanes, or entering another line
of traffic, in a roundabout.
3 Rule 118 requires a driver, if practicable, to give a left
change of direction signal when leaving a roundabout.

The important distinction with the rule is not necessarily the exit number, but moreso whether the exit is before or after the halfway point of the roundabout. So, in the scenario you have given above, if you are to leave the roundabout at the halfway point, there is no requirement to give any signal. Interestingly, the rules are silent on the requirements for leaving the roundabout at the halfway point.

Point 2 says before entering the roundabout to warn others

[Vesper Martini]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

Why would he, the red car shouldn't be turning left from that lane so there should be no need to be 'held up'.

Anybody with any defensive driving skills should know why.
regardless of whether the RED car was doing the wrong thing you need to anticipate things.

just avoid it and let them go give them a toot if you must but trying to drive around them was asking for trouble.

ask a Truck Driver how many times they have to let people in

PS Is that how you drove your Moped?

[FoxtrotGolfXray 5.0]

Originally Posted by prydey

Point 2 says before entering the roundabout to warn others

True, it does. But only to a driver that rules 112 and 113 apply to. Neither of those rules apply in your case of indicating right beyond the first exit (edit, just to clarify, beyond the first exit and up to the halfway point of the roundabout. The right indicator is required if the vehicle intends to exit after the halfway point).

As I said, those rules are silent on what a driver taking an exit that is halfway around the roundabout is supposed to do. It could, therefore, be implied that no signal is required.

[Trevor 57]

I am absolutely astonished at some of the responses here, some people need to go back and sit their drivers licence test again

It is pretty ****ing simple, if you are having difficulty understanding the law, then just take the big round thing out of the middle and see if that makes any sense!!!!!

2 lanes in, 2 lanes out, the 2 lanes in have straight ahead painted on the road, the left one also has a left arrow the right has a right arrow, not take the big round thing out of the middle and see if that makes more sense FFS!!!!!!!!!

[aussiblue]

IT'S A SINGLE LANE ENTRY ROUNDABOUT!!!!!!!!!!!

And look again at this and the markings on the road as they enter the roundabout:

Red car is very clearly in the wrong.

[DJR-351]

Definitely the red car........

[prydey]

Originally Posted by psychobimbo

True, it does. But only to a driver that rules 112 and 113 apply to. Neither of those rules apply in your case of indicating right beyond the first exit (edit, just to clarify, beyond the first exit and up to the halfway point of the roundabout. The right indicator is required if the vehicle intends to exit after the halfway point).

As I said, those rules are silent on what a driver taking an exit that is halfway around the roundabout is supposed to do. It could, therefore, be implied that no signal is required.

I admit, it would appear you don't have to indicate right.

Having said that, if you look at the aerial shot of the roundabout in question, the 'straight ahead' or continuing road is actually more than halfway around the roundabout....

It's silly wording really because roundabouts take many different forms with varying amounts of entering roads.

The numbering of exits, (first exit, second exit etc) comes from navigation voice commands and is very easy to understand.