AFF Weight Gain/Loss Program

[lucas2]

Originally Posted by b0son

But they have established a link between processed and red meat consumption and cancer.

You have to be careful with studies that look at this. These are typically all retrospective cohort studies (which I'm sure you know already) as you can't directly observe the hypothesis due to time and ethics.

People are generally inaccurate when it comes to self-reporting their food intakes. For these studies there are so many variables that could correlate to the onset of cancer.

There is a correlation between people who consume above average levels of red or processed meat and being overweight or obese. We know that the link between obesity and cancer (and nearly all other serious medical condition) is very high.

No diet is better than another when it comes to "weight loss". The best diet is the one you can stick to. At the end of the day, calories in versus calories out wins 99/100 (there is always an exception to the rule).

My advice to my clients is always simple:
1. Don't try to reinvent the wheel
2. Start with small and simple changes (e.g. switch out full sugar soft drink for the zero versions AND instead of two biscuits have one)
3. Try a brisk 10-15 minute walk every day
4. Tough diets are not sustainable - consistency and sustainability is key.

Anyway, I didn't know this thread existed - just thought I'd add my thoughts into the thread.

[b0son]

When someone starts posting quack youtube videos, I know better than to go down that rabbit-hole. Enjoy your kool aid.

[b0son]

Originally Posted by lucas2

People are generally inaccurate when it comes to self-reporting their food intakes. For these studies there are so many variables that could correlate to the onset of cancer.

Absolutely. When considered in the context of overall likelihood of developing a type of cancer, the additional risk of meat consumption is not significant. I was simply pointing out the hypocrisy of avoiding food additives, while frying the bejesus out of everything. Apparently I am now a heretic for not kneeling at the altar of keto...

[lucas2]

Originally Posted by b0son

Absolutely. When considered in the context of overall likelihood of developing a type of cancer, the additional risk of meat consumption is not significant. I was simply pointing out the hypocrisy of avoiding food additives, while frying the bejesus out of everything. Apparently I am now a heretic for not kneeling at the altar of keto...

Ah I see your point. Looks like we agree - especially when it comes to keto

I have people that pay for my advice (Accredited Exercise Scientist) yet prefer to listen to some idiot on Instagram with no qualifications dishing out cookie cutter keto plans. It's hard to educate people on the fact that no matter the diet, if you are consuming 1000 calories you will lose weight.

[XB GS 351 Coupe]

Originally Posted by b0son

When someone starts posting quack youtube videos, I know better than to go down that rabbit-hole. Enjoy your kool aid.

I am guessing you did not even watch the videos, and if you did you did not understand them, the videos simply explain the studies that you refer to as evidence that red meat causes cancer, or fried meat causes cancer.

The studies are flawed and conducted incorrectly, if you actually bothered to read the studies then you would quickly realise that they do not show what the general media tells you they show, but that they prove quite the opposite.

But I guess you can just call them quack videos based on no evidence what so ever, even the Institute of Cancer agrees with the Quack Videos, and states on their own web site that the studies are flawed and show no links to humans, but hey what do they know

[XB GS 351 Coupe]

Originally Posted by lucas2

I have people that pay for my advice (Accredited Exercise Scientist) yet prefer to listen to some idiot on Instagram with no qualifications dishing out cookie cutter keto plans. It's hard to educate people on the fact that no matter the diet, if you are consuming 1000 calories you will lose weight.

No offence, but just because people pay you for your advice does not automatically make it right. So getting paid for something does not automatically make you an authority.

Calling other people who get paid to give out advice that does not agree with yours idiots does not make you any more correct either, it just show insecurity.

Yes, I agree that if you eat 1000 calories most people will lose weight, but they are also not eating enough food, they are losing muscle, slowing their metabolism, are at risk of gallstones, headaches, nausea, lack of electrolytes, menstrual issues (in females), fatigue, in the longer term damaging their metabolism etc (but you would already know this with your qualifications)

So what diet/eating plan/etc would you recommend??

[XB GS 351 Coupe]

Originally Posted by lucas2

You have to be careful with studies that look at this. These are typically all retrospective cohort studies (which I'm sure you know already) as you can't directly observe the hypothesis due to time and ethics.

People are generally inaccurate when it comes to self-reporting their food intakes. For these studies there are so many variables that could correlate to the onset of cancer.

This is the most important part, people will lie, I have witnessed this myself, my father in law will tell his doctor that he has 2-3 beers over the weekend, when in reality he drinks himself onto oblivion most nights of the week. Why does he lie, because he knows what his doctor wants him to say and he does not want a lecture, so he just says what the doctor want to hear.

Another example is my own mother who will tell her doctor that she eats health, and she can't understand why her diabetes is out of control, when she stays with me she will have cakes for breakfast and a tub if ice cream every day, biscuits etc. Last time she got admitted to hospital with sky high blood sugar she told the nurse that she had not eaten anything when she literally had 4 doughnuts less that two hours prior to being admitted.

Self reporting studies are useless.

Also they do not account for drinking/smoking/work environment/family history/environmental factors/etc etc.

I honestly don't even know why they bother doing them.

[b0son]

Originally Posted by XB GS 351 Coupe

I am guessing you did not even watch the videos

The first video, he attempts to obfuscate by arguing the results may have been different if people had been eating grass-fed or organic beef, then telling us how great he feels after eating meat. Well flap, follwing that logic, let's all take cocaine! It's laughable when we already know what we do of the chemistry of red vs white meat, and the types of reaction byproducts that are produced in it via cooking.

The second, from a doctor that was prosecuted by the medical board for inadequate cleaning/disinfection/sterilisation practices and may even still be on probation. Not sure I want to be taking his advice. He doesn't actually point out flaws in the methodology, he argues that because the relative risk is not overwhelming, its near enough to be zero. Yet earlier he quotes confidence intervals that demonstrate statistical significance. His videos are clearly pitched at the ignorant.

A number of Berry's other videos are dismantled here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjsOgOel9AQ

Like I said, feel free to drink the keto kool aid. But you're more likely to find that echo chamber you so desperately crave, elsewhere.

[XB GS 351 Coupe]

Originally Posted by b0son

The first video, he attempts to obfuscate by arguing the results may have been different if people had been eating grass-fed or organic beef, then telling us how great he feels after eating meat. Well flap, follwing that logic, let's all take cocaine! It's laughable when we already know what we do of the chemistry of red vs white meat, and the types of reaction byproducts that are produced in it via cooking.

The second, from a doctor that was prosecuted by the medical board for inadequate cleaning/disinfection/sterilisation practices and may even still be on probation. Not sure I want to be taking his advice. He doesn't actually point out flaws in the methodology, he argues that because the relative risk is not overwhelming, its near enough to be zero. Yet earlier he quotes confidence intervals that demonstrate statistical significance. His videos are clearly pitched at the ignorant.

A number of Berry's other videos are dismantled here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjsOgOel9AQ

Like I said, feel free to drink the keto kool aid. But you're more likely to find that echo chamber you so desperately crave, elsewhere.

You call Dr Berry a quack yet you link a video from Vegan Footsoldier who wears a mask, scratches is balls throughout the video with absolutely no educational back ground.

I mean the man is too embarrassed to show his face as he probably knows how stupid his pointless rants are that he is too embarrassed to own them.

Sorry mate, but I am out, you may as well link the tooth fairy. Anyone that even watches this fool needs a mental health check.

[b0son]

Originally Posted by XB GS 351 Coupe

You call Dr Berry a quack yet you link a video from Vegan Footsoldier

Well, if you can take the p155, why can't I...

[lucas2]

Originally Posted by XB GS 351 Coupe

No offence, but just because people pay you for your advice does not automatically make it right. So getting paid for something does not automatically make you an authority.

Calling other people who get paid to give out advice that does not agree with yours idiots does not make you any more correct either, it just show insecurity.

Yes, I agree that if you eat 1000 calories most people will lose weight, but they are also not eating enough food, they are losing muscle, slowing their metabolism, are at risk of gallstones, headaches, nausea, lack of electrolytes, menstrual issues (in females), fatigue, in the longer term damaging their metabolism etc (but you would already know this with your qualifications)

So what diet/eating plan/etc would you recommend??

Of course it doesn't make it "right" and I don't claim to be an authority or an expert. But my advice is evidence based and I am actually registered and insured with a national accreditation body where I must abide by ethics, regulations and actually complete regular professional development.

If you are familiar with online training and nutrition, there are thousands of people out there selling diet plans who are unqualified, uninsured and don't have the best interests of their clients at hand. Imagine if the best doctors in the world were judged on the amount of their Instagram followers and not their knowledge and qualifications. That is what happens in this industry.

My point about people paying for my services yet listening to idiots on the internet doesn't make me insecure. It's akin to paying for a qualified and trained tuner to source the correct products that will best suit your car in terms of reliability or performance and then going to some DIY unqualified backyard mechanic instead because they offer off the shelf tunes for cheaper.

You are correct that I do already know these things. I've had people come to me who have lost their menstrual cycle in the past due to bad diet plans.

I actually don't recommend a specific diet plan. Everyone is different and responds differently. My principles are simple - increase protein to ~2g/kg (if resistance training) of body weight (different for very obese people), moderate carbs and moderate fats (ensure fibre and micronutrient targets are met). I work out how much fat/weight the client wants to lose, work out the caloric value of the fat and then program a specific deficit that is sustainable for the client. Most people do not eat enough protein and when losing weight I typically manipulate carbohydrate intake before touching fats.

I always say the best diet is the one you can stick to.

[XB GS 351 Coupe]

Originally Posted by b0son

Well, if you can take the p155, why can't I...

I was not taking the ****, I simply linked a video that explained the studies, the studies are there to be looked at and read and are available for everyone, but most people will not bother doing that and will simply read the headline.

Them make an uneducated comment like you did where you say cooking meat causes cancer, when in fact if you actually read the whole study there is no evidence of this.

The study isolated the bad part of the cooked meat, and fed a dosage many thousands of times higher to rats, they also fed it in the absence of the actual meat and the nutrition, so these rats were existing on the poisonous part of the process, and then they got sick. What a surprise.

Basically they poisoned the rats and then when the poison worked they concluded that cooking meat makes you sick.

Apples contain small amounts of arsenic, so we isolate the arsenic from apples and feed it in high concentration to something, then when the animal dies we can conclude that apples are poisonous and we should not be eating them.

[b0son]

Originally Posted by XB GS 351 Coupe

Them make an uneducated comment like you did

So not even with my PhD in biochemistry would my opinion be considered educated?

WTFever.

[falcon_bandit]

Too much overthinking here.


Can lose bulk weight & have general good health by working out 20mins a day, and eating pizza & lasagne if ya want.


Regarding cancer. Make sure you exclude used engine oil from your diet, thats what ive heard anyway.

[XB GS 351 Coupe]

Originally Posted by b0son

So not even with my PhD in biochemistry would my opinion be considered educated?

WTFever.

Unless you read the study and understood it then you can't have an educated opinion on the subject.

Not sure how biochemistry relates to nutrition anyway.

[XB GS 351 Coupe]

Originally Posted by falcon_bandit

T
Can lose bulk weight & have general good health by working out 20mins a day, and eating pizza & lasagne if ya want.

Please tell me more about this magical diet were all I have to do is exercise 20 minutes a day, eat pizza and I still lose bulk weight.

I currently exercise 40 minutes and don't eat pizza and still not losing bulk amounts of weight.

So may be I cut my exercise in half and add pizza

[b0son]

Originally Posted by XB GS 351 Coupe

Unless you read the study and understood it then you can't have an educated opinion on the subject.

I can, and I do, because my opinion is exactly that - educated. By something a little more rigorous than youtube.

Not sure how biochemistry relates to nutrition anyway.

FMD... this facepalm is actually burning calories.

[falcon_bandit]

Originally Posted by XB GS 351 Coupe

Please tell me more about this magical diet

Im nearly 40 and far from my prime. If your having issues, then you may have some underlying health problems u need to sort. I also noticed u talk about alcohol........

[XB GS 351 Coupe]

Originally Posted by b0son

I can, and I do, because my opinion is exactly that - educated. By something a little more rigorous than youtube.

Makes no sense, you have not read the study, you have not even looked at it. So how can you have an educated opinion on something that you have not even looked at??

The mere fact of having an educated opinion would require you to actually look at what you have an opinion about, otherwise it's not an educated opinion, it is just an opinion based on nothing. So really it's an uneducated opinion as you have not educated yourself on the subject.

Because if you had educated yourself you would have come to the same conclusions that the scientists from the National Institute of Cancer have come up with, ie that there is absolutely no correlation between eating cooked meat and cancer. Or are you suggesting that you know more about the causes of cancer that the scientists who have dedicated their lives to the subject?

However I will give you the benefit of the doubt and I will ask you to provide me some sort of evidence of your claim, hopefully in the form of a valid study that supports your claims, because if in fact cooked meat is linked to causing cancer I would really like to know about it as I eat a lot of cooked meat.

[XB GS 351 Coupe]

Originally Posted by falcon_bandit

Im nearly 40 and far from my prime. If your having issues, then you may have some underlying health problems u need to sort. I also noticed u talk about alcohol........

image

Ok so you are one of the lucky ones that has a great metabolism, I have a mate that is in his 50's drinks half a case of beer a day and lives off KFC and other garbage who is lean without ever going to the gym.

So should we all base our diet on his now?? A study of x=1 is useless, and basing diet advice on the results one person is ridiculous. Just because you eat pizza and exercise 20 minted a day does not have any relevance.

[b0son]

Originally Posted by XB GS 351 Coupe

Makes no sense, you have not read the study, you have not even looked at it. So how can you have an educated opinion on something that you have not even looked at??

I read the IARC study when it came out. Similarly, when the WHO started recommending no more than 5tspn sugar per day, I read the foundational research to get a context for that recommendation. I prefer to go to the source than to YouTube.

Because if you had educated yourself you would have come to the same conclusions that the scientists from the National Institute of Cancer have come up with, ie that there is absolutely no correlation between eating cooked meat and cancer.

Seems you're the one didn't read. NCI's own website lists cancer stats related to red meat and processed meat consumption (stomach, colorectal, pancreas and prostate - NCI even label them as such). You've misquoted what NCI have said - that there is no direct correlation demonstrated in humans between PCA/HCAs and cancer. And that's fine, they're just a postulated mechanism. The correlations between meat consumption and cancer have been demonstrated and researched for decades. You can disagree with how PCA/HCAs might play a role in cancer, but it doesn't change the fact that they probably do.

The reason they postulate PCA/HCAs as the causative agent is because the rate of cancer varies with type of meat, and red meats and charred meats (which are associated with higher cancer rates) give rise to agents that white meats and fish (which are not associated nearly as much, if at all) for the most part do not.

However I will give you the benefit of the doubt and I will ask you to provide me some sort of evidence of your claim, hopefully in the form of a valid study that supports your claims, because if in fact cooked meat is linked to causing cancer I would really like to know about it as I eat a lot of cooked meat.

It's no secret. Google meat cancer and Cochrane review, you'll get many hits. You needn't stop eating meat. As already pointed out, the added risk is small if you're otherwise fit and heathy. Similarly, I consume diet soft drinks for the same reason - the risk of consuming them is small, a statement you seem to have taken great issue with given we've derailed the thread comprehensively because for you there is plenty of risk of consuming a chemical cocktail with unknown side effects and long term consequences. Apparently, if your chemical cocktail was grass-fed, it's all good.

[BPXR6T]

I started dieting on Feb 3 this year. March 20 now and I’m 16kg lighter. No magic potions. Just eating less and what I am eating is good. 90% home grown. My grocery bill is between $40-60 a week now instead of $300 and I’m eating better than ever. In terms of exercise I only really started doing anything regular two weeks ago. I try to get my 10,000 steps a day which works out to about a 7.5km walk.

I’ve conciously swapped out red meat for lean chicken. I maybe have red meat once a week and chicken 3x. If I have steak I bulk it out so it’s 50/50 meat and mushrooms. The rest of the time its just veg from the garden. Aside from rice I dropped carbs especially pasta and bread which I’ve always eaten loads of. I never ate much starchy veg like potato. The only thing close to a potion I’ve added is a natural fibre supplement. I go through 1-2 dozen eggs a week. Depending on how hungry I’ll do a 3-4 egg omelette with a load of mushrooms for breakfast. Lunch is usually light. Maybe a cucumber and a nut bar and a handful of nuts for a snack later. Dinner is usually something like a stir fry, baked chicken thighs, or fried rice. I’m trying to cut back on the rice to one or two days a week. I’m also going to try getting a bit of fish into my diet.

I eat this way all week. When I do the weekly shop I have a fruit juice and a cheese and bacon roll as a sort of reward. Then I go out for dinner every Friday night and eat whatever within reason. Whatever I do eat I eat less of it. Last week was pizza. I could lose weight faster but this is sustainable.

I’ve set myself small milestones along the way and am on track to be at my correct weight around Oct-Nov this year, if it takes longer that’s okay. I feel so much better. The benefits even so far have been massive. I was not well. I no longer wheeze when just sitting still, my doctor told me it was just because I’m fat and he was right. Doing yard work or working on the cars is a hell of a lot easier already too now I’m not fighting gravity so much.

[XB GS 351 Coupe]

Originally Posted by BPXR6T

I started dieting on Feb 3 this year. March 20 now and I’m 16kg lighter. No magic potions. Just eating less and what I am eating is good. 90% home grown. My grocery bill is between $40-60 a week now instead of $300 and I’m eating better than ever. In terms of exercise I only really started doing anything regular two weeks ago. I try to get my 10,000 steps a day which works out to about a 7.5km walk.

I’ve conciously swapped out red meat for lean chicken. I maybe have red meat once a week and chicken 3x. If I have steak I bulk it out so it’s 50/50 meat and mushrooms. The rest of the time its just veg from the garden. Aside from rice I dropped carbs especially pasta and bread which I’ve always eaten loads of. I never ate much starchy veg like potato. The only thing close to a potion I’ve added is a natural fibre supplement. I go through 1-2 dozen eggs a week. Depending on how hungry I’ll do a 3-4 egg omelette with a load of mushrooms for breakfast. Lunch is usually light. Maybe a cucumber and a nut bar and a handful of nuts for a snack later. Dinner is usually something like a stir fry, baked chicken thighs, or fried rice. I’m trying to cut back on the rice to one or two days a week. I’m also going to try getting a bit of fish into my diet.

I eat this way all week. When I do the weekly shop I have a fruit juice and a cheese and bacon roll as a sort of reward. Then I go out for dinner every Friday night and eat whatever within reason. Whatever I do eat I eat less of it. Last week was pizza. I could lose weight faster but this is sustainable.

I’ve set myself small milestones along the way and am on track to be at my correct weight around Oct-Nov this year, if it takes longer that’s okay. I feel so much better. The benefits even so far have been massive. I was not well. I no longer wheeze when just sitting still, my doctor told me it was just because I’m fat and he was right. Doing yard work or working on the cars is a hell of a lot easier already too now I’m not fighting gravity so much.

If it works that's great, but there is one thing that stands out to me, why have you traded red meat for chicken meat, ie high quality meat for poor quality meat?

Makes no sense to me, I love chicken but I really try to minimize eating it to the occasional home made buffalo wings cooked over charcoal.

[b0son]

Originally Posted by XB GS 351 Coupe

If it works that's great, but there is one thing that stands out to me, why have you traded red meat for chicken meat, ie high quality meat for poor quality meat?

what makes chicken a poor quality meat? what's the metric you're using to judge meat? protein content? fat content? myoglobin content?

[XB GS 351 Coupe]

Originally Posted by b0son

what makes chicken a poor quality meat? what's the metric you're using to judge meat? protein content? fat content? myoglobin content?

The way 99% of chickens are raised makes it poor quality meat.(unless you are raising your own free range chickens of course), chickens are mostly raised in cages getting fed soy based GMO feed, making for meat with a very poor nutrient profile.

Whilst beef is generally free range, cows in Australia roam free on large acreage farms foraging for foods, especially cows destined for slaughter. Some will go to feed lots to fatten up before slaughter which slightly reduces the nutrient profile of the meat but no where near that of chicken.

Ideally if you can afford it the best would be grass fed and grass finished beef, which has a much better Omega 6 to Omega 3 ratio. (or wild game meats which most do not have access to)

Ideal ratio would be 1:1 most western diets have a ration of 10:1 to 25:1, a lot of it caused by soy based foods.

[b0son]

Originally Posted by XB GS 351 Coupe

Ideally if you can afford it the best would be grass fed and grass finished beef, which has a much better Omega 6 to Omega 3 ratio. (or wild game meats which most do not have access to)

Ideal ratio would be 1:1 most western diets have a ration of 10:1 to 25:1, a lot of it caused by soy based foods.

I'll admit, I've never really given that aspect much thought, but then, I eat a lot of fish (high in omega 3). I'm not sure a diet where the only major protein source is only read meat, would be all that healthy (depending on how it's cooked).

[XB GS 351 Coupe]

Originally Posted by b0son

I'll admit, I've never really given that aspect much thought, but then, I eat a lot of fish (high in omega 3). I'm not sure a diet where the only major protein source is only read meat, would be all that healthy (depending on how it's cooked).

Fish is great, good quality fish is also very expensive. I try and eat some quality fish once a week, sometimes twice depending on what specials I pick up.

I wish I was better at fishing so I could catch my own, but I only tend to feed them using my hook to present them with food.

I cook my beef in ghee, tallow or bacon fat in a wrought iron frypan, or on the BBQ. If you are concerned about the health aspect of cooking meat do not cook in in any sort of rancid fats such as olive oil or any other plant based oils or any sort of coated non stick fry pans.

[blueoval]

Sorry for the thread mine.

How is everyone going with their weight?

Ive just joined up to the gym again. Looking to move 10kg in fat but build about 5kg in muscle in about 3 months. See how I go.

[blueoval]

Been over a year since I last posted in this thread. 12 months at the gym and been going a couple of times a week. I havent measured my progress but feel a lot stronger, getting a bit more muscle definition. Dropped some fat in the process, bulked up a bit, and changed my diet not just for fitness but also for health reasons. Im no way near as stick thin like I was when I was cycling. I look a bit more robust and being only 5'7" it stands out.

Goals for me are on a quarterly basis. Remain as consistent as possible. Try and achieve a PR every few weeks no matter how small.

I find the gym to be a place for mental clarity. Get in, push hard and go home. Embrace the endorphins. Do it again as soon as I can.