Covid 19 -

[Dr Terry]

Deleted

[LG17]

My take on the jabs is very simple.
Firstly I'm well over 70 and grew up with kids who had polio, for example.
Now, polio is a very contagious virus which can have serious effects on people, including attacking the spine and thereby causing paralysis.
The Salk vaccine was developed in the early '50s and was given to schoolkids on a large scale as early as '54.

Not a long time between development and general usage.
Like all vaccines there are side effects but people in general welcomed it because the positives outweighed the negatives.

It's been a wonderful vaccine.

The Covid vaccines have also been developed and put into general usage fairly quickly.
My best mate is fighting cancer so his health is severely compromised.
My grandkids are very young.
I could never live with myself if I ended up giving them the virus because I didn't want to get jabbed.
Many of the so called anti-vaxxers only think of themselves and couldn't give a stuff about anyone else. We hear in the news of unvaccinated people having the virus and subsequently passing it on to their elderly parents, many of whom get very sick and many, unfortunately die.
I wonder how they justify their stance and live with the consequences of their inaction.

[slowsnake]

Well just watching my Ch 24 news as usual, showing 236 new locally aquired covid cases in NSW and 3 deaths!
Not a good look for our future prospects in WA.

Originally Posted by Dr Terry

I just don't get the whole anti-vaccine thing. What is the issue ?

I'm old enough to remember people dying from Polio, Smallpox & Dyptheria. At school we were given vaccines of all types & if we went overseas we had extra shots, otherwise no Visa & therefore no overseas trip. Never heard a single gripe in over 50 years.

Now we have another pandemic & some in the community are taking this strange anti-vax stance. What has changed ? Is it the internet spreading half-truths. Do we have a higher percentage of morons in the community nowadays ? Watch the movie Idiocracy if you're not sure what I'm on about.

Not trying to stir the pot, just asking an honest question.

Dr Terry

Maybe it's because the entire medical profession has become so adept at disease eradication and saving people from conditions they would have otherwise died from that a percentage of society has lost sight of their mortality? People seem to think they're indestructible.

Originally Posted by LG17

Many of the so called anti-vaxxers only think of themselves and couldn't give a stuff about anyone else. We hear in the news of unvaccinated people having the virus and subsequently passing it on to their elderly parents, many of whom get very sick and many, unfortunately die.
I wonder how they justify their stance and live with the consequences of their inaction.

This is probably going to be super controversial but that sense of community within society is disappearing and so a part of me can understand.

We've got kids put through school and uni and then can't get jobs. Then if they get a job it doesn't pay enough to buy a house. They can't afford to save for a deposit and pay rent at the same time. It's affecting their mental health, it's preventing them starting families when they should be, it's affecting peoples' lives.

Others... who benefited purely by being born earlier.. were able to get on the ladder. It's socially accepted to gobble up so much housing as an "investment portfolio" which really just means hoarding-a-limited-resource-thats-also-a-basic-need and letting the demand squeeze society so hard that the value goes up and results in people living in cars and caravans. They're just wringing society dry. Landlords upping rent not because their mortgage has gone up that much but because they want more profit from those other people in society.

That's what society is today. Milking each other for profit. The haves basically exploiting market forces to get more money from the have-nots. And then people wonder why one person doesn't care about ensuring the personal safety of another person?
Is it really any wonder that the pandemic has exposed that there is such social turmoil and division between people? We're seeing the results of 20 years of squeezing people who no longer care about others because noone has cared about them, in my personal opinion.

[russellw]

Data valid as at 00:00 GMT October 29th 2021.

Note: As not all Australian States report at the same time, the data below is based on the previous full day reporting.

1,919 new cases for Australia and 12 deaths so the CMR is 1.018%.

129 new cases and no deaths for NZ so CMR is 0.457%.

The UK had 43,081 cases yesterday and 186 deaths for a CMR of 1.564%.

84,587 new cases in the USA yesterday and 1,585 deaths sees CMR at 1.637. Note that the CMR has started to rise again after falling steadily the last two months.

Other notable points:
Global deaths pass 5.0M, the last 50k in 7 days;
Europe passes 64M cases;

Faeroe Islands (182); and
Ukraine (26,870)
... recorded new highs; those in blue for the second consecutive day and those in red for a third or more consecutive day.

No countries move above the 90th percentile for the 10 day period while no countries drop below.

[Bossxr8]

Not for delta variant.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02689-y

The difference is minimal. But yeah, keep deleting facts because you don’t want to believe. Dan Andrews would be proud of you.

The original covid strain is irrelevant now. We are nearly all delta here.

[russellw]

NSW/VIC

NSW records 237 cases in the current period and the 10-day average growth rate decreases to 0.9941 (from 1.0096) while the actual line remains above the predictive trend line but is trending downward.



VIC records 1,385 cases in the current period and the 10-day average growth rate decreases to 0.9835 (from 1.0070) while the actual line remains below the predictive trend which has been changed to a 4th order polynomial.

[russellw]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Not for delta variant.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02689-y

The difference is minimal. But yeah, keep deleting facts because you don’t want to believe. Dan Andrews would be proud of you..

There's a highly reliable scientific resource you've chosen to quote because it suits your agenda but it flies in the face of peer reviewed scientific research which includes the Delta variant. I will continue to stop you posting misinformation on this forum because I can and if you don't like it, you know where the door is -[ or keep going and I'll help you out.

[GasoLane]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Not for delta variant.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02689-y

The difference is minimal. But yeah, keep deleting facts because you don’t want to believe. Dan Andrews would be proud of you.

The original covid strain is irrelevant now. We are nearly all delta here.

You forgot a couple of small points.

There is no mention of who did 'The Study' or where 'The Study' was done.

And the last line of the article..... " The study has not yet been peer reviewed."

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by russellw

There's a highly reliable scientific resource you've chosen to quote because it suits your agenda but it flies in the face of peer reviewed scientific research which includes the Delta variant. I will continue to stop you posting misinformation on this forum because I can and if you don't like it, you know where the door is -[ or keep going and I'll help you out.

I can post up many studies that show the same russ. Why won’t you accept the fact the delta variant is a different animal? You know that to be true.

Or is it just face saving? I’m not posting misinformation here. I can keep posting many studies that show the same. Or will you just keep deleting them cause you won’t accept it? It’s not a good look. And i say that with all respect to you. And i’ll leave it at that.

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

I can post up many studies that show the same russ. Why won’t you accept the fact the delta variant is a different animal? You know that to be true.

Or is it just face saving? I’m not posting misinformation here. I can keep posting many studies that show the same. Or will you just keep deleting them cause you won’t accept it? It’s not a good look. And i say that with all respect to you. And i’ll leave it at that.

There are going to be more mutations though, some will be successful and some won't. What's your suggestion? Just open the floodgates and let rip through the population so as to provide more fuel for the next dominant mutation?

If it mutates into something so deadly that it wipes itself out before it gets a chance to replicate (like other viruses did in history).. great I suppose, but that's going to kill a lot of people.
Or maybe it stays about where it is and just knocks off sick people of all ages with immune conditions, cancers, old age.. so the only people who get to survive are the middle-aged with good genetics regarding immunity?
Or are you hoping that it mutates into a less-deadly variant that just gives people the sniffles but ultimately rarely kills people?

What is it you're actually hoping for?

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Way to put words in my mouth. I’m not suggesting anything other than these vaccines aren’t the silver bullet many people assume they are. They don’t slow the spread. Proven by all other highly vaxxed countries. Preventing hospitalisation yes, they do that. But covid isn’t going to disappear, and these vaccines get less effective with every new variant. It’s so over hyped.

I’m hoping they are working on something that is a genuine cure, or a vaccine that is completely effective in stopping you getting it. Or even one that doesn’t become ineffective after 5-6 months. That will be the silver bullet.

The whole idea behind life and evolution is that organisms find a way around any hurdle you put infront of them. How do you stop a virus from entering your body in the first place? Besides physical barriers like high-grade masks but look at the pushback from that? The country doesn't want to be told what to do or wear.

You breathe in a virus, it goes in your lungs and lies up against your tissue.. how do you prevent it from evolving its own mechanism that lets it slip inside your cells?

We've never had a cure for a virus. The closest we have is probably HIV, that seems to be the main focus for virus research. That came about by a HIV patient receiving a bone marrow transplant from someone who just happened to have a unique gene mutation which provided resistance to HIV. (He died from cancer last year btw)

The only way that scientists will make a discovery as significant as preventing infection from a virus, is probably going to be through some kind of gene editing like CRISPR can deliver. And if you think the outcry and conspiracy claims from mRNA-based vaccines is bad, you just wait until gene editing becomes more advanced! That is true DNA alteration. Kind of like what people are accusing mRNA vaccines of doing but actually real DNA alteration. Can't wait to see the fallout from that 'cause yeah that's experimental as ****. People will go into that as guinea pigs with their future and life expectancy completely unknown... but they'll still do it for science.

I'm surprised that you're looking for solutions provided by scientists from research that isn't currently there yet, but you're scoffing at recommended measures provided by scientists that may not be a complete solution but is the best they've got for now?

[oldel]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Preventing hospitalisation yes, they do that. But covid isn’t going to disappear, and these vaccines get less effective with every new variant. It’s so over hyped.

They have done a lot to prevent hospitalisation and death, they are key to opening up and not overunning the health system, isn't that enough to make it worthwhile?
There's no point in holding off on vaccination just because it's not a perfect prophylactic solution to prevent infection. Bird in the hand worth two in the bush scenario, they are key to ending lockdowns and opening up. Remember - the lock downs were purely because we don't want to over run the hospitals (and morgues).

Never mind all the BS you read about covid vaccines - fact is it's just an immune system preparing vaccine - an inoculation - just like the smallpox vaccine. If everyone gets vaxxed maybe, just maybe, we'll buy time to deal with a future variant or even prevent another variant getting a foothold and causing more problems.

These might be of interest to you bossxr8

New research suggests CRISPR can destroy virus that causes COVID-19
https://allianceforscience.cornell.e...uses-covid-19/

CRISPR vs COVID-19: how can gene editing help beat a virus?
https://www.future-science.com/doi/1.../btn-2020-0145

Exciting stuff but far more experimental than mRNA vaccines

Another question for anyone who feels like answering it - the speed that scientists developed and rolled out a vaccine was largely used as evidence of its lack of safety. "too quick to have been fully tested" seemed to be the biggest part of the controversy.

If you're waiting on new technology... a cure.. what's a sufficient amount of time between scientists discovering/developing it and then rolling it out as a treatment... so as not to spark similar it-was-developed-too-fast controversy but also not appear that they're withholding a cure? Will you accept said cure or will you want the same decades-worth of trials that antivaxxers are insisting on? Where's the line?

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

As you can see here, the vaccines aren’t that effective against the delta variant. And most studies are showing similar results. And drops off over time. But i’m sure this will get deleted as misinformation, despite being cleared by google’s fact checkers.

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/art...of-virus#Delta

"aren't that effective" is just a distortion of what they're saying though. If you go around simplifying what the researchers have said then people are going to think maybe they shouldn't bother getting vaccinated then, seeing as you said it's not effective?

What you were talking about earlier is preventing infection versus preventing disease.
Scientists are further along at figuring out how to prevent disease than they are at completely eliminating infection because preventing a virus from entering a cell is really hard. The virus just evolves a new way to enter the cell.
It's like barricading a door and then someone just breaks in through the window instead. All that time and research and the virus has outsmarted it. That's pretty much what has happened with our vaccines, they were created to recognise a spike protein.... and then delta came along with a new spike protein. It won't be the last time either.

Our best shot.. with current technology... is to try and prevent people from developing serious disease instead, and that's exactly what the vaccines do. They let your immune system rehearse so that when the actual virus comes along, your immune system will kill it before it kills you.

From your linked article:

“The good news is that the data clearly shows that receiving a full vaccination series significantly reduces the risk of severe disease and death. When called to do so, people should get vaccinated,” says Dr. Kluge.

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

The point of the linked article was to show that people claiming that the vaccines significantly reduce transmission is incorrect. Not with delta. The current studies are showing about 1/3 reduction at best. And that’s on freshly vaxxed people. That gets even lower within fairly short time frames. It’s not doing much to slow the spread. Israel has been a good example of this, as cases there are still very high, despite them now moving towards people getting their 4th shot. It started well, then delta came and cases skyrocketed.


https://www.abc.net.au/news/health/2...alia/100442304

Are they tweaking the vaccines to better suit delta?

Alright but as someone else mentioned earlier, it's not a peer-reviewed study and for every one study you find that says so, I bet I'd find 10 that say the opposite. Israel's initial vaccination rollout was to 80% of adults, it dropped to around 60% when kids were included in the numbers and that's quite a bit short of the herd immunity guidelines. I bet kids were still being included in their case numbers though. They're now starting to vaccinate kids fwiw.

Just saw these too

Thousands reportedly attempt to obtain easily forged vaccinated certificate
https://www.timesofisrael.com/thousa...d-certificate/

Fake Covid vaccine and test certificate market is growing, researchers say
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...esearchers-say

Are they tweaking the vaccines to better suit delta?

looks like it
https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2...-vaccine-covid

[LG17]

Originally Posted by leesa

Another question for anyone who feels like answering it - the speed that scientists developed and rolled out a vaccine was largely used as evidence of its lack of safety. "too quick to have been fully tested" seemed to be the biggest part of the controversy.

If you're waiting on new technology... a cure.. what's a sufficient amount of time between scientists discovering/developing it and then rolling it out as a treatment... so as not to spark similar it-was-developed-too-fast controversy but also not appear that they're withholding a cure? Will you accept said cure or will you want the same decades-worth of trials that antivaxxers are insisting on? Where's the line?

The too fast controversy was started by anti-vaxxers, deniers and others of similar ilk. Unfortunately the crappy media came all over it and gave it life that it didn't deserve. Just as many vaccines have taken years to develop, there are just as many that haven't taken long. Take my case in point of the Salk vaccine earlier on and that was in the 50s when scientists and doctors didn't have the equipment they have available today. Without the current vaccines for Covid we would be a lot worse off today. Now that's not saying they are the be all and end all. Scientists will continue to develop even better ones for the future, because that's what they do.

[CoupeKing]

[burnz]

Originally Posted by LG17

My take on the jabs is very simple.
Firstly I'm well over 70 and grew up with kids who had polio, for example.
Now, polio is a very contagious virus which can have serious effects on people, including attacking the spine and thereby causing paralysis.
The Salk vaccine was developed in the early '50s and was given to schoolkids on a large scale as early as '54.

Not a long time between development and general usage.
Like all vaccines there are side effects but people in general welcomed it because the positives outweighed the negatives.

It's been a wonderful vaccine.

The Covid vaccines have also been developed and put into general usage fairly quickly.
My best mate is fighting cancer so his health is severely compromised.
My grandkids are very young.
I could never live with myself if I ended up giving them the virus because I didn't want to get jabbed.
Many of the so called anti-vaxxers only think of themselves and couldn't give a stuff about anyone else. We hear in the news of unvaccinated people having the virus and subsequently passing it on to their elderly parents, many of whom get very sick and many, unfortunately die.
I wonder how they justify their stance and live with the consequences of their inaction.

that there is a problem, did the specialist ok the vaccine??

[GasoLane]

Originally Posted by burnz

that there is a problem, did the specialist ok the vaccine??

Most specialists would encourage it.

[LG17]

Originally Posted by GasoLane

Most specialists would encourage it.

His team did and made sure it was all done under the right circumstances and at the best times for him.

[LG17]

Originally Posted by burnz

utter bull crap..the media has a mandate..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=raRLWhtlJuM

Hahaha.
A mandate for what? ;)

[burnz]

Originally Posted by GasoLane

Most specialists would encourage it.

people whom are immune compromised, most specialist would not approve!!

[GasoLane]

Originally Posted by burnz

people whom are immune compromised, most specialist would not approve!!

You're watching the wrong You Tubes.

My wife is going through Chemo for breast cancer...which isn't playing nice.

Her Oncologist, her heart specialist and her throat surgeon (she needs a throat operation after the Chemo) all agreed to her getting her first jab before starting Chemo.

She's due for her third Chemo treatment next Thurs and is booked in for her 2nd jab on the Friday. Which was also ok'd by all the people above.

[burnz]

Originally Posted by GasoLane

You're watching the wrong You Tubes.

My wife is going through Chemo for breast cancer...which isn't playing nice.

Her Oncologist, her heart specialist and her throat surgeon (she needs a throat operation after the Chemo) all agreed to her getting her first jab before starting Chemo.

She's due for her third Chemo treatment next Thurs and is booked in for her 2nd jab on the Friday. Which was also ok'd by all the people above.

well there is one thing we have in common, cancer..

i am not approved for the jab!! but i'm allways get a label of sorts.

[LG17]

Originally Posted by burnz

comprehension fail.

I guess you are right there with the media's comprehension.
The media is supposed to report the news, not make it...

[buggerlugs]

Originally Posted by LG17

I guess you are right there with the media's comprehension.
The media is supposed to report the news, not make it...

John Mayer https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBIx...=johnmayerVEVO

"When they own the information, they can bend it all they want"

[slowsnake]

Originally Posted by burnz

well there is one thing we have in common, cancer..

i am not approved for the jab!! but i'm allways get a label of sorts.

I had both my jabs, Pfizer, but they said ( oncologists ) not during chemo?
Seems to be differing opinions even amongst the doctors?
I ended up declining chemo, so had my jabs, declined radiation too, but if I had a wife and kids I may of been persuaded otherwise!

But like the flu shot, I would sooner be a " little bit sick " than a " lot sick "
Ya gotta trust someone, and I'm trusting myself, I make my decisions based on what information I have at my disposal