Covid 19 -

[five 7]

It's amazing the hidden glee some have here over people loosing there jobs and livelihood when they have strayed from the views of the collective, and are surmising they are crap workers dead wood and good riddance, these ones are your fellow Aussies Kiwis neigbours mates and friends not the enemy, granted some may fall into this deadbeat category, but what about the ones with a backbone that will stand up for there own principles (whether perceived right or wrong) and a good workers, but now have become second class citizens in there own country with there back to the wall. Hating the division in both our countries it seems a lot like divide and conquer. Personally think regular saliva testing would solve a lot of these problems, done in both camps and allow people they're jobs.

[DJR-351]

Originally Posted by Polyal

Perhaps, either way unless you have been living under a rock (must not name states) then this has been coming and employees were given notice. From what I have seen, perhaps some smaller business might be a bit more lax.



haha its been 33 here and drying up the flood water quiet nicely, I was poking some fun, Ive noticed QLD'ers have suddenly realized that they need to get the jab to hold must jobs...something that has been occurring down south for sometime. When Pauline Hansen is chanting about human rights you know something is amiss.

Im not kidding but we have an acquaintance in QLD, who is educated enough, holds a professional cert in health care (mental) who quit her job due to being forced to vaccinate. Then took another job in QLD education who have also just recently mandated the same thing....FMD.

Ahh I'm with you now, i didn't get it because I've been jabbed for ages and my employer (WA Based) enforced the mandatory Jab some time ago. What many don't realise though is that for some employers it's not an option anymore, I'm flying up to Darwin this weekend to join ship and I can't do that unless I'm fully vaxxed.......

https://coronavirus.nt.gov.au/__data...als-advice.pdf

My employer was in the know so just pre emptied the decision, like most in the Offshore Oil & Gas Industry, and they did that to give time to those that have been dragging their feet on the issue before the 22nd of Nov deadline kicked in.

We also got two (fully jabbed) crew members from the NSW Lepper Colony's () that have been stewing away at the Howard Springs "Centre for National Resilience" (dumassedname) for 2 weeks so they can join this weekend, they will be in fine form on joining day lol

[FairmontGS]

Originally Posted by five 7

It's amazing the hidden glee some have here over people loosing there jobs and livelihood when they have strayed from the views of the collective, and are surmising they are crap workers dead wood and good riddance, these ones are your fellow Aussies Kiwis neigbours mates and friends not the enemy, granted some may fall into this deadbeat category, but what about the ones with a backbone that will stand up for there own principles (whether perceived right or wrong) and a good workers, but now have become second class citizens in there own country with there back to the wall. Hating the division in both our countries it seems a lot like divide and conquer. Personally think regular saliva testing would solve a lot of these problems, done in both camps and allow people they're jobs.

I don't reckon anyone is "gleeful" that people are in the situation that the anti-jabbers find themselves and if you are you shouldn't be.

I don't know how to discuss the following:

but what about the ones with a backbone that will stand up for there own principles (whether perceived right or wrong)

You just have to go with the science. And the science has historically been right - the fleas on Black Rats cause plague, don't poo where your draw your drinking water from, suck on lemons to keep scurvy at bay, take this for polio, this for measles, this for HIV, this for tetanus, etc. And we always have. If historically science has usually seen us through then maybe you have to stick with it.

Yes, have backbone and be skeptical because that's what makes us Australians/Kiwis. But then look at historical scientific progress and go with the majority following that science.

[b0son]

Originally Posted by five 7

these ones are your fellow Aussies Kiwis neigbours mates and friends not the enemy

yet you won't have the jab to protect your fellow Aussies Kiwis neighbours mates and friends.... ?

[CoupeKing]

Originally Posted by FairmontGS

You just have to go with the science. And the science has historically been right

Trust the science? That's like saying trust the media or every human. It's better to be a critical thinker and seek the truth, but most are picking a team like it's AFL, lol.

Look at asbestos, lead based paint on children's toy cars, Zyclon B. Guards told the Jews to jump on the trains and everything will be ok. Then they told them to go into that chamber for a shower and they'll receive a hot meal and a clean bed afterwards.

What about Agent Orange, DES, DDT, or opioids? Now look at all the chemicals they've banned almost world-wide that they put in the foods/drinks we consume. Plus everything else we use. I could list thousands of examples.

Every drug the FDA released said its was safe and effective, until they recalled it.

Now some of us will be labelled as anti-vaxxer anti-sciencer

[FairmontGS]

Originally Posted by CoupeKing

Trust the science? That's like saying trust the media or every human. It's better to be a critical thinker and seek the truth, but most are picking a team like it's AFL, lol.

Look at asbestos, lead based paint on children's toy cars, Zyclon B. Guards told the Jews to jump on the trains and everything will be ok. Then they told them to go into that chamber for a shower and they'll receive a hot meal and a clean bed afterwards.

What about Agent Orange, DES, DDT, or opioids? Now look at all the chemicals they've banned almost world-wide that they put in the foods/drinks we consume. Plus everything else we use. I could list thousands of examples.

Every drug the FDA released said its was safe and effective, until they recalled it.

Now some of us will be labelled as anti-vaxxer anti-sciencer

I acknowledge what you’re saying, but you won’t disagree with me that all of what I said was historically correct? Because we’ve faced some shocking setbacks over the millennia but we’re all still here. It has to say something for the science.

[GasoLane]

Originally Posted by CoupeKing

Trust the science? That's like saying trust the media or every human. It's better to be a critical thinker and seek the truth, but most are picking a team like it's AFL, lol.

Look at asbestos, lead based paint on children's toy cars, Zyclon B. Guards told the Jews to jump on the trains and everything will be ok. Then they told them to go into that chamber for a shower and they'll receive a hot meal and a clean bed afterwards.

What about Agent Orange, DES, DDT, or opioids? Now look at all the chemicals they've banned almost world-wide that they put in the foods/drinks we consume. Plus everything else we use. I could list thousands of examples.

Every drug the FDA released said its was safe and effective, until they recalled it.

Now some of us will be labelled as anti-vaxxer anti-sciencer

I bet you don't own a dog, do you?

[CoupeKing]

Originally Posted by FairmontGS

I acknowledge what you’re saying, but you won’t disagree with me that all of what I said was historically correct? Because we’ve faced some shocking setbacks over the millennia but we’re all still here. It has to say something for the science.

You're right. Thing is that most people (me included until about 5 years ago) are not taking into consideration that regardless if it's an individual or corporation etc there will always be evil, fraud, lies, corruption, incompetence and selfishness. Now throw into that mix some wicked Sociopaths and Psychopaths and we got ourselves one giant cesspool.

Most of these career politicians are in it for themselves or are Muppets being controlled.

There are plenty of good people out there called the silent majority. All they need to do is stand up and when that eventually happens it's game on.

[Syndrome]

The dictator got his way. We are screwed!

[FairmontGS]

Originally Posted by CoupeKing

You're right. Thing is that most people (me included until about 5 years ago) are not taking into consideration that regardless if it's an individual or corporation etc there will always be evil, fraud, lies, corruption, incompetence and selfishness. Now throw into that mix some wicked Sociopaths and Psychopaths and we got ourselves one giant cesspool.

Most of these career politicians are in it for themselves or are Muppets being controlled.

There are plenty of good people out there called the silent majority. All they need to do is stand up and when that eventually happens it's game on.

I’m not with you about corporate and gov-co malfeasance. But that isn’t to say you are incorrect.

Regardless, you can seperate the bad behaviour of others from your own well-being. You could get jabbed and then be match-fit to take on all comers.

[XR Martin]

Originally Posted by five 7

It's amazing the hidden glee some have here over people loosing there jobs and livelihood when they have strayed from the views of the collective, and are surmising they are crap workers dead wood and good riddance, these ones are your fellow Aussies Kiwis neigbours mates and friends not the enemy, granted some may fall into this deadbeat category, but what about the ones with a backbone that will stand up for there own principles (whether perceived right or wrong) and a good workers, but now have become second class citizens in there own country with there back to the wall. Hating the division in both our countries it seems a lot like divide and conquer. Personally think regular saliva testing would solve a lot of these problems, done in both camps and allow people they're jobs.

I regard someone who is unvaccinated in a workplace as irresponsible as someone who will light up a cigarette around you. Remember when smoking everywhere was socially acceptable?
Did people carry on like this when smoking in public places and workplaces was banned? I can't remember. But now it's socially unacceptable as people can see the smoke, smell the smoke and understand its hazardous to your health because science proved it.

Being unvaccinated around people in my opinion is just as socially unacceptable as smoking around people.

[b0son]

Originally Posted by CoupeKing

Trust the science? That's like saying trust the media or every human.

The media isnt at all like science. If it were, every article would be fact-checked, not just in house, but by several competitor newspapers before it was published.

The reason you get a scientific consensus is because MANY people have done the work and reproduced the result. You'd rather trust some unverified 'fact' you saw on youtube? THAT is like saying trust every human.

[CoupeKing]

Originally Posted by b0son

The media isnt at all like science.

They're all in bed together.

[Work Horse]

Originally Posted by CoupeKing

They're all in bed together.

Why?

When you can come up with a rational cohesive explanation why you believe this people may come onboard...

[five 7]

Originally Posted by b0son

yet you won't have the jab to protect your fellow Aussies Kiwis neighbours mates and friends.... ?

Hey mate totally get were your going, just dividing society for what ever reason never ends well especially if a Govt has a hand in it, late thirties Germany seemed a nice place at the time if you weren't the one being persecuted. How long before the rules change and you are off to a Centre of National Resilience.(that name just ticks all the right boxes) Might be a long shot but history has a way of repeating its self. Think I'm done on this now gunna leave the covid stuff alone, I'm just tired of the us and them attitude these days. C ya all.

[buggerlugs]

Originally Posted by Work Horse

Why?

When you can come up with a rational cohesive explanation why you believe this people may come onboard...

Don't hold your breath . You may get a You Tube clip thou.....

[FairmontGS]

In far more important news...

AFL legend Ron Barassi tests positive for COVID-19, will miss Melbourne's premiership celebrations

Barassi was set to take part in the Demons' Victorian celebration of their premiership victory
It is understood he contracted the virus last month
Barassi won six premierships with the Demons

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-12-...d-19/100669808

[Citroënbender]

I look forward to this research being followed to ground.

https://www.9news.com.au/health/trig...a-94e620e45a26

For the lazy or disinclined, it looks like the “why” of occasional clotting with AZ has been determined. A potential confidence builder for all except governments who’ve done secret deals on other, more expensive, vaccines.

[slowsnake]

Originally Posted by Polyal

Yeap and happening in my area right now, down without pay until you sort it out. I assume take to long to sort it out and you are gone.

It will hit the news stands in QLD and WA in another couple of months.

It's very hard nowadays to dismiss bad workers, stirrers and just the plain lazy ones, most of em hide behind their "rights" as employees in a very tolerant country like Australia, sometimes too tolerant if you ask me!
But when it comes down to tin tacks bosses can only really follow what their employees contracts tell them, wether State or Federal work laws, 20 years ago I was contracted to a small engineering company at CSR in Sydney, like a maintenance contract, but everytime an employee left, ( retired ) he was replaced by a labour hire worker!
But 20 years on, employees who hire these people are starting to realise they are substandard workers and under qualified, they can just get rid of em on the spot, hourly hire, daily hire etc, of course I am talking PAYE not salary, that's different.

But I have worked for over 100 employers during my working life as a boilermaker welder, that was normal on construction work, jobs start and finish, I was never short of work, but others weren't so lucky, but bosses can now virtually sack you?.....you don't get told face to face, it's a text or some such messenger service.

But some companies have their workers held in a tight grip, this Covid-19 business kept decent companies alive with Govmint handouts, which is fair, but bad companies took advantage too, and that is my/our taxes they are giving away, it's not free money, it's from the public purse, but both sides use the system to suit their own agendas, now is not the time to start complaining, about anything, those in permanent work should be grateful for their job, head down and **** up!

[b0son]

Originally Posted by five 7

Hey mate totally get were your going, just dividing society for what ever reason never ends well

But who is doing the dividing? Vaccination is a social responsibility, society as a whole benefits when as many people as possible play their part. If you decided to opt out of paying your tax citing your right to financial freedom, do you think that would get you any support? Would you complain that it's unfair you're being pressured to pay your tax, while still expecting to receive the benefits of others tax?

[russellw]

Originally Posted by five 7

It's amazing the hidden glee some have here over people loosing there jobs and livelihood when they have strayed from the views of the collective, and are surmising they are crap workers dead wood and good riddance, these ones are your fellow Aussies Kiwis neigbours mates and friends not the enemy, granted some may fall into this deadbeat category, but what about the ones with a backbone that will stand up for there own principles (whether perceived right or wrong) and a good workers, but now have become second class citizens in there own country with there back to the wall. Hating the division in both our countries it seems a lot like divide and conquer. Personally think regular saliva testing would solve a lot of these problems, done in both camps and allow people they're jobs.

I don't think anyone is taking pleasure in their misfortune but we are quite correctly pointing out that they only have themselves to blame although I'm sure they'll feel they have been unfairly victimised for their beliefs.

Let's not let emotion get in the way of the facts. They haven't "strayed from the views of the collective" - they have consciously chosen to disregard the legally mandated requirements put in place with a very clear understanding of the consequences of their actions and while that is their right in this country, it's equally my right to show them little sympathy for their self inflicted suffering. It's not backbone - it's stupidity of the worst kind because after taking their stance they then want to bleat about how hard done by they are.

Equally, while I don't wish to see any group in our society treated differently, the reality is that the needs of the majority are going to prevail whether the anti-vaxxers like it or not. That's called democracy.

If you really want to be somewhere where mandated regular testing is an option then there are countries that (so far) allow employees that option (at the employees cost) instead of vaccination but I'm not sure how long that will continue to be an accepted practice given the complexity and frequency of those tests. For example, the US OHSA ruling does allow for a supervised test to be conducted every 7 days as an alternative to vaccination but it has to be the more expensive (~US$125) PCR test.

The USA (and other countries) may well continue to offer those options because in some of those countries the anti-vax percentage is near 30% and from a practical stand-point they simply can't lose that many people from the workforce - there is even a view that in some industries, employers might be willing to meet the cost to retain staff but in countries like the UK and Australia, where the anti-vax percentage is much lower, I can't see that being a burden employers want to bear.

Let's look at this for a minute in more detail.

The current vaccine 'hesitancy' rate in Australia is sitting at 6.4% compared to 11.5% two weeks ago.
The 90% fully vaccinated target is likely to be exceeded for those >18 years old. Vaccine hesitancy is lowest at 3.5% in the ACT/NT/Tas but remains high in Queensland at 11.1% and SA at 9.5%; however, hesitancy fell sharply in both states from three weeks ago: down from 17.8% in SA and 18.3% in Queensland.

Comparatively, the USA rate is currently about 17% who won't and another 10% who aren't sure but Russia is much worse with 28% and 15% respectively while Germany and France are both above 20% when both groups are counted - although all of those have been dropping in recent weeks.

[rare ss]

Originally Posted by b0son

But who is doing the dividing? Vaccination is a social responsibility, society as a whole benefits when as many people as possible play their part. If you decided to opt out of paying your tax citing your right to financial freedom, do you think that would get you any support? Would you complain that it's unfair you're being pressured to pay your tax, while still expecting to receive the benefits of others tax?

I think Social Media is creating the divide, the algorithms funnel people to bother sides of the fence on most issues, Rona is the biggest talking point over the past 2 years so it's no surprise it's created the greatest divide

[slowsnake]

Originally Posted by Citroënbender

I look forward to this research being followed to ground.

https://www.9news.com.au/health/trig...a-94e620e45a26

For the lazy or disinclined, it looks like the “why” of occasional clotting with AZ has been determined. A potential confidence builder for all except governments who’ve done secret deals on other, more expensive, vaccines.

Just read the link CB, as you know my eldest brother had a stroke, a rare cerebellar type, his oncologist and associated specialists all agreed it was not caused by his cancer which he has been given the all clear, neither was it caused by his heart issues, he has sinus rhythm issues and a pacemaker keeps him alive, but they, the doctors opined that it was caused by the AZ vaccine?

Been 3 months since, and his eyesight and balance are improving everyday, but the doctors say it was/is a very unusual event, but I wonder how far they looked into the "cause" and were more concerned with getting him back up and running!

As for UK to Australia postage, I received my Christmas card on 1st December, was posted in Liverpool UK on 22nd November, that's pretty fast CB.

[russellw]

While we are on the topic of science, there are more study results in for vaccine efficacy this week.

The first is from Singapore and looks at Delta variant cases that required hospitalisation. Of the 214 hospitalised cases, 84 had at least one does of an mRNA vaccine and 71 of those were fully vaccinated while 130 were unvaccinated and 4 had received a non mRNA vaccine.

Despite significantly older ages in the breakthrough group (as seen in other studies), only 2 (2.8%) required oxygen supplementation compared to 69 (53.1%) in the unvaccinated group.

The study concluded that vaccines are highly effective at preventing symptomatic and severe COVID-19 associated with Delta infection and vaccinated individuals had a faster decline in viral RNA load.

The second study compared effectiveness of Pfizer and Moderna amongst US military veterans - a group that has been very hard hit with nearly 400k cases and a terrible CMR of 4.36%. Each vaccine group included 219,842 persons that were evenly matched in age and demographics selected from the 3M veterans who had been vaccinated. It should be noted that the study was mostly men (93%) with 90% over the age of 50 which is going to slant the results a bit.

Over 24 weeks of follow-up in a period marked by Alpha-variant predominance, the estimated risk of documented infection was 5.75/1000 persons in the Pfizer group and 4.52/1000 persons in the Moderna group.

The corresponding excess risk (Pfizer vs Moderna) of documented infection over 12 weeks of follow-up in a period marked by Delta-variant predominance was 6.54/1000 persons.

Exec Summary: Recipients of the Pfizer vaccine had a 27% higher risk of infection and a 70% higher risk of hospitalization for Covid-19 than recipients of the Moderna vaccine over 24 weeks of follow-up in a period marked by alpha-variant predominance.

We also found a higher risk of documented infection among recipients of Pfizer than among recipients of Moderna over 12 weeks of follow-up in a period marked by delta-variant predominance, although the estimate was less precise because of the smaller number of eligible persons.

A difference in effectiveness between the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines might be the result of the different mRNA content of the vaccines (100 μg for Moderna vs.30 μg for Pfizer); the different interval between the 1st and 2nd doses (4 weeks for Moderna vs 3 weeks for Pfizer), or other factors

The third is a study from new York State using data for 8.7M adults to assess the effectiveness of the BNT162b2 (Pfizer), mRNA-1273 (Moderna), and Ad26.COV2.S (Johnson & Johnson) vaccines against lab-confirmed COVID-19 cases and hospitalisations. The study covers the period from May 1 through September 3, 2021.

During the period, there were 150,865 cases of COVID-19 and 14,477 hospitalizations with Covid-19.

During the week of May 1, 2021, when the delta variant made up only 1.8% of the circulating variants, the median vaccine effectiveness against COVID-19 was 91.3% for Pfizer; 96.9% for Moderna, and 86.6% for Janssen (J&J).

Subsequently, effectiveness declined contemporaneously in all cohorts, from a median of 93.4% to a nadir of 73.5% around July 10, when the prevalence of the delta variant was up to 85.3%. By the week of August 28, when the prevalence of the delta variant was 99.6%, the median effectiveness was 74.2%.

Effectiveness against hospitalization with COVID-19 among adults 18-64 years of age remained almost exclusively greater than 86%, with no apparent time trend.

Effectiveness declined from May through August among persons >65 years of age who had received Pfizer (from 94.8 to 88.6%) or Moderna (from 97.1 to 93.7%). The effectiveness of Janssen was lower than that of the other vaccines (80-90%) but with no trend observed over time.

When compared against the unvaccinated:
During the week of May 1, 2021, the median number of incident cases of COVID-19 in the vaccinated was 2.4/100,000 person-days compared with 34.6/100,000 person-days in the unvaccinated - a 14.4x higher rate for the unvaccinated.

Rates decreased through late June, then increased after the delta variant became the most prevalent circulating variant. By the week of August 28, the median incidence of COVID-19 was 16.4/100k person-days among vaccinated persons and 64.9/100k person-days among unvaccinated persons - a 4x higher rate for the unvaccinated.

[russellw]

NSW/VIC
NSW records 337 cases in the current period and the 10-day average growth rate increases to 1.0909 (from 1.0627) while the actual line is further above the predictive trend line.



VIC records 1,188 cases in the current period and the 10-day average growth rate increases to 1.0533 (from 1.0500) while the actual line moves back below the predictive trend.



.. and here is the overlay for NSW/VIC from Day 1 until the present point for Victoria.

[FairmontGS]

That's a big jump for The GSS...

[XR Martin]

I thought I read somewhere that the chance of having blood clots under normal circumstances isn't much lesser than if you've had an astrazeneca shot.
Same goes for heart issues with Pfizer.
It's just that because so many people have had vaccinations at the same time, anytime someone has a random reaction it's blamed on the vaccine, when in reality you were just as likely to have that random reaction on any given day.

[tweeked]

Originally Posted by CoupeKing

They're all in bed together.

Yep - Have been seeing a bunch of scientists, politicians, doctors, reporters, big pharma and a banker all wearing the same moose hats and doing secret handshakes down at a local hall. Now I know what they are up to.........

[russellw]

Data valid as at 00:00 GMT December 2nd 2021.

Note: As not all Australian States report at the same time, the data below is based on the previous full day reporting.

1,685 new cases for Australia and 10 deaths so the CMR is 0.947%.

172 new cases and no deaths for NZ so CMR is 0.372%.

The UK had 53,067 cases yesterday and 141 deaths for a CMR of 1.407%.

121,908 new cases in the USA yesterday and 1,743 deaths sees CMR at 1.624%.

Other notable points:
Global cases pass 264M, the last 1M in 2 days;
Europe sets a new daily high with 420,765 cases;

Finland (1,622); and
South Korea (5,262)

.... recorded new highs; those in blue for the second consecutive day and those in red for a third or more consecutive day.

Zimbabwe moves above the 90th percentile for the 10 day period and Bulgaria drops below.

[Cav]

Originally Posted by russellw

I don't think anyone is taking pleasure in their misfortune but we are quite correctly pointing out that they only have themselves to blame although I'm sure they'll feel they have been unfairly victimised for their beliefs.

Let's not let emotion get in the way of the facts. They haven't "strayed from the views of the collective" - they have consciously chosen to disregard the legally mandated requirements put in place with a very clear understanding of the consequences of their actions and while that is their right in this country, it's equally my right to show them little sympathy for their self inflicted suffering. It's not backbone - it's stupidity of the worst kind because after taking their stance they then want to bleat about how hard done by they are.

Equally, while I don't wish to see any group in our society treated differently, the reality is that the needs of the majority are going to prevail whether the anti-vaxxers like it or not. That's called democracy.

If you really want to be somewhere where mandated regular testing is an option then there are countries that (so far) allow employees that option (at the employees cost) instead of vaccination but I'm not sure how long that will continue to be an accepted practice given the complexity and frequency of those tests. For example, the US OHSA ruling does allow for a supervised test to be conducted every 7 days as an alternative to vaccination but it has to be the more expensive (~US$125) PCR test.

The USA (and other countries) may well continue to offer those options because in some of those countries the anti-vax percentage is near 30% and from a practical stand-point they simply can't lose that many people from the workforce - there is even a view that in some industries, employers might be willing to meet the cost to retain staff but in countries like the UK and Australia, where the anti-vax percentage is much lower, I can't see that being a burden employers want to bear.

Let's look at this for a minute in more detail.

The current vaccine 'hesitancy' rate in Australia is sitting at 6.4% compared to 11.5% two weeks ago.
The 90% fully vaccinated target is likely to be exceeded for those >18 years old. Vaccine hesitancy is lowest at 3.5% in the ACT/NT/Tas but remains high in Queensland at 11.1% and SA at 9.5%; however, hesitancy fell sharply in both states from three weeks ago: down from 17.8% in SA and 18.3% in Queensland.

Comparatively, the USA rate is currently about 17% who won't and another 10% who aren't sure but Russia is much worse with 28% and 15% respectively while Germany and France are both above 20% when both groups are counted - although all of those have been dropping in recent weeks.

Courts block vaccine mandates in US

https://www.jurist.org/news/2021/11/...-in-10-states/