Could Kevin Rudd/Kim Carr pursuade Ford to reverse shut down decision?

[Lardman]

Originally Posted by monte.b

How did howard end up with 75 billion in the future fund if that is true ,you really dont have a clue ,being at uni too long will do that for you

Sorry kiwi i wasnt referring to you ,you beat me to it

Expansion of global economy. Pretty easy answer. When times are good, it's easy to save.

[Lotte]

We've never been in the black, not at a gross national debt level anyway.
the information supplied earlier in this thread shows that. As does a quick Google search.

http://www.marketeconomics.com.au/20...bt-elimination
http://www.marketeconomics.com.au/24...ard-government

There's also the fact the numbers show half the debt left by the Keating government was leftover from the liberals he took over from.

[monte.b]

Originally Posted by Lardman

Expansion of global economy. Pretty easy answer. When times are good, it's easy to save.

Goodness me ,howard sold telstra to put the money in the future fund so the public servents could retire with their super , keating had no money set aside to pay it ,try as you like you cant change history and when howard gove left the economy was very good ,now since then we have had the biggest boom in mining in history and these fools have just blown all the money trying to prop up their votes with gove handouts ,this country was not in trouble and our banks were fine ,the fools started spending money like drunkin sailers and havnt stopped yet ,god help us

[Lotte]

And if they sat on their hands, and unemployment soared that would have been wrong as well.
there's a million ways to skin a cat, and there's more than one way to run a country, neither is more right than the other. However austerity measures, imho, are not the way to keep this economy moving at this point in time. But that's just my opinion, and based on the fact we could be doing a lot worse than we are.

[OCTANEBOSS]

Originally Posted by mr smith

Any PM who cuts the handouts, First home buyers, baby bonus, parental leave, etc. will get my vote.
Unfortunately handouts rather than good policy have become the way of doing things over the last decade. Stupid Aussies love the handout though, so in a way we get what we deserve.

Other groups of stupid Aussie's, don't mind paying 35 k in income tax a year, buying Aussie cars, looking after those who don't want work, supporting people that don't want to live in there own country, giving stimulus money for those who are entitled to it, assisting those who have kids for the benefits, paying for the newly discovered element called carbon, supporting over paid pollies that cant work out if they are women, men or prime minister. The biggest joke is that we are in the red and will need to pull our heads in & work hard.... I would if I can keep my job till Christmas, not likely.

Australia gives a lot of support to shi*** minorities at the expense of the majority.

With Kevin O7 & Tony Lycra in the scene ,IMO we are all screwed... again,

I would work me a** off to buy a Aussie made 2019 GT Falcon but I think Globalization has reared it head for Ford. RIP Falcon
I agree, no more handouts

For those who are interested, Goggle Australian Debt Clock,real time Australian debt figures. I just hope we end up like it was in the great depression, would have to make me ethanol for the GT

[Maka]

Originally Posted by KIWI-1

Maka
Was the bit about Labor turning a $20billion surplus into a $250billion debt deleted from that article?

Not at all, there are 21 pages to the link. Read them all please!

monte.b read the whole link then you might get a clue lol!

cheers, Maka

[monte.b]

Maka ,ill give them a good read tomorrow ,cause im off to bed as ive got to work in the morning ,thanks everybody for a great debate tonight ,good to see ,if i offened anybody well sorry .,i get a bit stirred up ,goodnight lotte:ev ill

[Lotte]

I dunno if the evil grins mean your sitting outside my house
Night mate.

[tranquilized]

Its a very interesting thread, and a lot more balanced than i would have thought. shame political discussions are frowned upon around here, would be good if there was a dedicated section for it.

[Maka]

Originally Posted by tranquilized

Its a very interesting thread, and a lot more balanced than i would have thought. shame political discussions are frowned upon around here, would be good if there was a dedicated section for it.

Its a credit to all members who contributed to this thread

cheers, Maka

[Sprint XR8]

Originally Posted by Lotte

We've never been in the black, not at a gross national debt level anyway.
the information supplied earlier in this thread shows that. As does a quick Google search.

http://www.marketeconomics.com.au/20...bt-elimination
http://www.marketeconomics.com.au/24...ard-government

There's also the fact the numbers show half the debt left by the Keating government was leftover from the liberals he took over from.

We were in the black. You do realize a negative debt figure means you have more cash than debt? The Howard government inherited a net debt of $96b and ended with a negative net debt of $29b.
Its pointless looking only at gross debt without looking at cash levels. If you have a $100k mortgage and no money in the bank you're in the red, if you have a $100k mortgage and $150k cash in the bank you're in the black.

[ian861]

The Green Policies is what driving Ford out of the country, stuff like the Carbon Tax and Industrial Relations policies have Ford look at the Operations here compared to their operations internationally and rightfully said we cant do it any more. However Ford unlike Holden hasn't tried too hard to sell their cars internationally and the Ford Brand isn't a Australian brand so if they did manufacture Fords elsewhere like Brands like Mercedes and Volvos for example we will never see any benefits of the profits.

[Lotte]

Originally Posted by CoupeXB

We were in the black. You do realize a negative debt figure means you have more cash than debt? The Howard government inherited a net debt of $96b and ended with a negative net debt of $29b.
Its pointless looking only at gross debt without looking at cash levels. If you have a $100k mortgage and no money in the bank you're in the red, if you have a $100k mortgage and $150k cash in the bank you're in the black.

You know the difference between gross and net? We were never in the black with gross debt, but we were with net.

[EgoFG]

I think a couple of American companies are mentioned in this thread.

The trouble with American Companies is that they do not know the difference between "doing business in other countries" and "being a multinational company".

Toyota, VW, Hyundai are multinational companies.
GM, Ford and others are American companies that do some business overseas.

[karj]

Originally Posted by ian861

The Green Policies is what driving Ford out of the country, stuff like the Carbon Tax and Industrial Relations policies have Ford look at the Operations here compared to their operations internationally and rightfully said we cant do it any more. However Ford unlike Holden hasn't tried too hard to sell their cars internationally and the Ford Brand isn't a Australian brand so if they did manufacture Fords elsewhere like Brands like Mercedes and Volvos for example we will never see any benefits of the profits.

The Carbon Tax/ETS certainly contributes to the costs associated with traditional manufacturing, but I disagree with your assessment that it's the primary cause behind Ford leaving.

The high dollar is primarily what is causing pain for manufacturing industries. The phenomena is referred to as Dutch Disease, where manufacturing suffers due to a high dollar caused by a strong resources/mining sector.

Before Kevin Rudd was booted in 2010 he was trying to avoid this. He was hoping to control the dollar by reigning in the booming resources sector with a mining tax and ETS. This would have given the manufacturing sector some breathing space and bought more time to further diversify the economy. But he got booted from office and a few months later the dollar hit parity.

Rudd was unable to communicate his strategy clearly to the electorate, due in no small part to the fierce opposition to the mining tax from the resources sector. Tony Abbott capitalised on the situation and started running one-liners like "you don't speed up the slow lane of our economy by slowing down the fast lane." Whether Rudd was right in his approach I don't know, but Abbott never offered an actual solution aside from that one-liner.

It will be interesting to see what happens next with manufacturing. The resources boom is apparently over, our dollar has weakened and Rudd flagged manufacturing as an election issue during his victory speech the other day. With the re-appointment of Kim Carr, it seems to be a matter of "watch this space."

Having said all that, I think in Ford's case, manufacturing in this country is done and dusted.

[Lotte]

I'll distinguish between the two. This is our debt to GDP ratio over the years, with an explanation of the difference between net debt and gross debt.
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/aust...nt-debt-to-gdp

The reason I brought up the fact we were never in surplus in regards to gross debt is because the figure quoted as our debt is the gross debt
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_national_debt
It's wiki, but it's the best I can do this time of day.

[KIWI-1]

Originally Posted by redloamrules

Australia gives a lot of support to shi*** minorities at the expense of the majority.

I know of a refugee who (as a second job) is paid $50/hr to teach his newly arrived fellow refugees the history and culture of the country they no longer live in.

[Lardman]

Originally Posted by monte.b

Goodness me ,howard sold telstra to put the money in the future fund so the public servents could retire with their super , keating had no money set aside to pay it ,try as you like you cant change history and when howard gove left the economy was very good ,now since then we have had the biggest boom in mining in history and these fools have just blown all the money trying to prop up their votes with gove handouts ,this country was not in trouble and our banks were fine ,the fools started spending money like drunkin sailers and havnt stopped yet ,god help us

Not spending money is really working out well for Greece and Spain.

Spending loads of money and driving them further into debt is working out fantastically for Japan.

As for Keating - Raised taxes, kept public assets and set things up for the Howard years. There's been a few articles saying Howard actually spent way too much money and sold off public assets to keep it up.

God won't help anything, but ensuring that tax policy is effective into the future is the responsibility of any government - some are better than others.

Originally Posted by redloamrules

Other groups of stupid Aussie's, don't mind paying 35 k in income tax a year, buying Aussie cars, looking after those who don't want work, supporting people that don't want to live in there own country, giving stimulus money for those who are entitled to it, assisting those who have kids for the benefits, paying for the newly discovered element called carbon, supporting over paid pollies that cant work out if they are women, men or prime minister. The biggest joke is that we are in the red and will need to pull our heads in & work hard.... I would if I can keep my job till Christmas, not likely.

Australia gives a lot of support to shi*** minorities at the expense of the majority.

With Kevin O7 & Tony Lycra in the scene ,IMO we are all screwed... again,

I would work me a** off to buy a Aussie made 2019 GT Falcon but I think Globalization has reared it head for Ford. RIP Falcon
I agree, no more handouts

For those who are interested, Goggle Australian Debt Clock,real time Australian debt figures. I just hope we end up like it was in the great depression, would have to make me ethanol for the GT

Read my earlier posts on debt. Looking at sovereign debt means absolutely nothing unless you compare it to debt levels globally. As for income tax etc - You realise we have a tax system very similar to the US for most income earners, and yet we have these benefits:

• Financial handouts higher than the US minimum wage
• Minimum wage more than double
• A universal healthcare system that applies to everyone regardless of status
• Support for the disabled
• An emissions trading scheme that has been proven to reduce emissions, and is actually encouraging businesses to spend more money to become more energy efficient

Carbon is not a newly discovered element. The EU has had an ETS for a long time before us, and we're on one now, and lo and behold - it hasn't affected anything! No businesses have collapsed! In fact, businesses are spending more money to avoid the tax, and spending it with other companies to install things like sensor office lights, more efficient electrical equipment, updating their car fleets to be more efficient - this affects industries across multiple sectors which once again, encourages productivity.

And before you spout things about people living in their own country, you'd do very well to remember Australian history. And the fact you don't get shot at for having an opinion.

The real joke is the amount of people that don't research history, global economics and the actual functions behind taxes and welfare benefits before they have an opinion about them - there's a lot of misinformation that happens, partially because of the political rhetoric, but also partly because we are in the kind of country where people are allowed to have free opinions.

Originally Posted by tranquilized

Its a very interesting thread, and a lot more balanced than i would have thought. shame political discussions are frowned upon around here, would be good if there was a dedicated section for it.

I think provided these don't devolve into personal attacks they are fine - I'm surprised, really, considering the amount of responses in the thread.

Originally Posted by ian861

The Green Policies is what driving Ford out of the country, stuff like the Carbon Tax and Industrial Relations policies have Ford look at the Operations here compared to their operations internationally and rightfully said we cant do it any more. However Ford unlike Holden hasn't tried too hard to sell their cars internationally and the Ford Brand isn't a Australian brand so if they did manufacture Fords elsewhere like Brands like Mercedes and Volvos for example we will never see any benefits of the profits.

IR Laws here have ensured people aren't paid peanuts compared to other industries such as the IT contracting area (where $100+ an hour isn't uncommon). It's if anything kept more people buying these cars, and more people in jobs to buy the cars. What killed Ford (which they have realised) is that the Falcon wasn't a global car. Engineered for our market only, no exports...

You tell me another car that does well that isn't sold globally?

The Carbon Tax/ETS hardly hit ford, for the most part - their suppliers would probably have been hit harder.

Originally Posted by karj

The Carbon Tax/ETS certainly contributes to the costs associated with traditional manufacturing, but I disagree with your assessment that it's the primary cause behind Ford leaving.

The high dollar is primarily what is causing pain for manufacturing industries. The phenomena is referred to as Dutch Disease, where manufacturing suffers due to a high dollar caused by a strong resources/mining sector.

Before Kevin Rudd was booted in 2010 he was trying to avoid this. He was hoping to control the dollar by reigning in the booming resources sector with a mining tax and ETS. This would have given the manufacturing sector some breathing space and bought more time to further diversify the economy. But he got booted from office and a few months later the dollar hit parity.

It will be interesting to see what happens next with manufacturing. The resources boom is apparently over, our dollar has weakened and Rudd flagged manufacturing as an election issue during his victory speech the other day. With the re-appointment of Kim Carr, it seems to be a matter of "watch this space."

Having said all that, I think in Ford's case, manufacturing in this country is done and dusted.

It won't be - we need manufacturing to keep things afloat after the mining boom. I'd honestly expect a similar Thatcher-era period of pain while we spend a lot of money to get out of mining and re-skill our workforce.

[mik]

Originally Posted by Lotte

And if they sat on their hands, and unemployment soared that would have been wrong as well.
there's a million ways to skin a cat, and there's more than one way to run a country, neither is more right than the other. However austerity measures, imho, are not the way to keep this economy moving at this point in time. But that's just my opinion, and based on the fact we could be doing a lot worse than we are.

That is such an untrue statement my friend, while the economy is important, the way they conduct themselves is also important, underhandedness , dishonesty, these traits seem to be part of our political system these days more so than ever before, and of that i have no doubt both big parties are guilty , however as an ex dyed in wool labor bloke of over 30 years , the actions of the current party in recent years has seen a new low in my book, and i won't be rewarding them for their actions.
the sad part is a lot of Australians are either too dim or just have very short memories, hence we probably have the government we deserve.

[Lotte]

Originally Posted by mik

That is such an untrue statement my friend, while the economy is important, the way they conduct themselves is also important, underhandedness , dishonesty, these traits seem to be part of our political system these days more so than ever before, and of that i have no doubt both big parties are guilty , however as an ex dyed in wool labor bloke of over 30 years , the actions of the current party in recent years has seen a new low in my book, and i won't be rewarding them for their actions.
the sad part is a lot of Australians are either too dim or just have very short memories, hence we probably have the government we deserve.

How so?both parties are most certainly guilty of **** politics, however there is more than one way to run a country and the best method isn't a pre determined formula that will work rain, hail or shine.

[westy73]

Originally Posted by Lotte

And if they sat on their hands, and unemployment soared that would have been wrong as well.
there's a million ways to skin a cat, and there's more than one way to run a country, neither is more right than the other. However austerity measures, imho, are not the way to keep this economy moving at this point in time. But that's just my opinion, and based on the fact we could be doing a lot worse than we are.

But the old addage still stands. Farmers stand by it.
Save in the GOOD TIMES for the BAD TIMES.

Everyone who thinks the good times will roll on forever are kidding themselves.
Anyone born after 1990 has never experienced a recession but when they do it will give them all a stark reminder of how dire things can get.

Commonsense will tell anyone if you spend willy nilly and rack up debt in the good times and then bad times hit what do you have left to spend or save jobs etc ??? It will bust in a bigger way than if you have money in the tin. Some of the posts here left me shaking my head I have to say.

[westy73]

I think from a lot of reponses here it really highlights the disconnect between us the people and the responsibility that will come to pay back the public debt goverments have racked up in the last 6 years. We will be made to pay it back make no mistake. It's not a never ending credit card. People have to stop being 'DEPENDENT' on the government for their next handout and start thinking realistically. The bubble will burst at some point. If we rack up personal debts beyond your means you don't spend more money you have to save to pay it off. If you don't things get repossessed. At least that's what happens in my world.
Goverments are no different except that in the end WE end up paying it back.

[Alan D Segal]

Tell that to the YOLO generation.

[KIWI-1]

Originally Posted by westy73

I think from a lot of reponses here it really highlights the disconnect between us the people and the responsibility that will come to pay back the public debt goverments have racked up in the last 6 years.

We will be working in the daisy factory while our Grandkids pay it back. Kinda like Spending the Kids Inheritance.

[Lardman]

Originally Posted by mik

That is such an untrue statement my friend, while the economy is important, the way they conduct themselves is also important, underhandedness , dishonesty, these traits seem to be part of our political system these days more so than ever before, and of that i have no doubt both big parties are guilty , however as an ex dyed in wool labor bloke of over 30 years , the actions of the current party in recent years has seen a new low in my book, and i won't be rewarding them for their actions.
the sad part is a lot of Australians are either too dim or just have very short memories, hence we probably have the government we deserve.

Tell me how underhandedness and 'dishonesty' affect how the current Labor government is running the country? If anything, the recent government has been proven to be more democratic in its operation over the last 2 terms. As I've said - In my opinion, arbitrary emotions and things like 'honesty' are nothing of substance compared to actual policy. Policy runs the country, not emotions, not trust.

Originally Posted by westy73

But the old addage still stands. Farmers stand by it.
Save in the GOOD TIMES for the BAD TIMES.

Everyone who thinks the good times will roll on forever are kidding themselves.
Anyone born after 1990 has never experienced a recession but when they do it will give them all a stark reminder of how dire things can get.

Commonsense will tell anyone if you spend willy nilly and rack up debt in the good times and then bad times hit what do you have left to spend or save jobs etc ??? It will bust in a bigger way than if you have money in the tin. Some of the posts here left me shaking my head I have to say.

I was born in 1990, and we are -in- a recession. Unless global stock market instability, the situation in Japan, Greece, Spain and Portugal, and overall stability of the Eurozone in addition to the US housing bubble are just small things. Howard had the good times, the bad hit just as Rudd got in, and we got out remarkably unscathed compared to the job losses overseas.

Originally Posted by westy73

I think from a lot of reponses here it really highlights the disconnect between us the people and the responsibility that will come to pay back the public debt goverments have racked up in the last 6 years. We will be made to pay it back make no mistake. It's not a never ending credit card. People have to stop being 'DEPENDENT' on the government for their next handout and start thinking realistically. The bubble will burst at some point. If we rack up personal debts beyond your means you don't spend more money you have to save to pay it off. If you don't things get repossessed. At least that's what happens in my world.
Goverments are no different except that in the end WE end up paying it back.

So... similarly to how everyone buys a house, they get a loan and have debt.

Once again - the issue isn't debt, debt is good. Public debt keeps money circulating, productivity up, so on. As long as the government is effectively managing that debt (which it is at the moment, with overall debt levels forecast to decrease over the next few years), then there is no major problem.

Originally Posted by Alan D Segal

Tell that to the YOLO generation.

Oh, trust me - There are still some of us that care deeply about the country and political decisions - Quite a few are still clueless, but that can be used to describe the general voting populace anyway.

[KIWI-1]

Originally Posted by Lardman

Once again - the issue isn't debt, debt is good. Public debt keeps money circulating, productivity up, so on.

That reminds me of a colleague who declared that it did not matter that the Julia Gillard Memorial Halls cost twice as much as they should have because the builders, electricians, plumbers, project managers, architects, etc. recirculated the money on new toys; and the people who supplied the new toys recirculated the money; and on and on. So in his view, ripping off the taxpayers was a good thing because the benefits of ill gotten gains were shared by many.

[Lardman]

Originally Posted by KIWI-1

That reminds me of a colleague who declared that it did not matter that the Julia Gillard Memorial Halls cost twice as much as they should have because the builders, electricians, plumbers, project managers, architects, etc. recirculated the money on new toys; and the people who supplied the new toys recirculated the money; and on and on. So in his view, ripping off the taxpayers was a good thing because the benefits of ill gotten gains were shared by many.

It's essentially a capitalist form of the old soviet collectivisation movement. And why not, really? You employ say, 500 people to build something for the government. Those 500 people may have 500 families to feed, which would result in maybe 1000 meals at a local restaurant, or 100 new cars every year, so on.

Ultimately the gains might be ill gotten, but the effect of other businesses viable is immeasurable. Additionally, a lot of government projects are able to be FOI'd and audited by the public if you think corruption is an issue.

[KIWI-1]

Originally Posted by Lardman

Additionally, a lot of government projects are able to be FOI'd and audited by the public if you think corruption is an issue.

They were... and it was.

[KIWI-1]

I guess then, that the truckie who steals a pallet of smokes and sells them to his mates at the pub is role model because he doesn't keep any of the stolen goods and stops the foreign-owned cigarette companies gaining any financial benefit from killing his mates?

[westy73]

I was born in 1990, and we are -in- a recession. Unless global stock market instability, the situation in Japan, Greece, Spain and Portugal, and overall stability of the Eurozone in addition to the US housing bubble are just small things. Howard had the good times, the bad hit just as Rudd got in, and we got out remarkably unscathed compared to the job losses overseas.

No we are not in a recession. LAst time I looked interest rates are low, unemployment low and inflation within targets. Recessions effect local economies. Depressions effect Global economies. We are not in a recession however we are terribly vulnerable if it hits as we have deficits as far as the eye can see at least 3 years into the future which will turn even more negative should commodity prices drop and heaven forbid the mining bubble bursts. As you say it is vulnerable in other European economies so instability could mean great negativity in share markets.

So... similarly to how everyone buys a house, they get a loan and have debt.

Once again - the issue isn't debt, debt is good. Public debt keeps money circulating, productivity up, so on. As long as the government is effectively managing that debt (which it is at the moment, with overall debt levels forecast to decrease over the next few years), then there is no major problem.

On the contrary debt is exactly the problem especially when it isn't being contained. That's the real issue. If I have a loan for a house then yes at that point in time I can service the debt. What if interest rates double ?? then what ? keep spending or are you in trouble ? Have you had to pay mortgage rates above 10% in your lifetime or 15% ?? I know for a fact that answer would be NO.

Yes and about forecasts....the FORECAST was for a surplus of 1 Billion bucks this year....tell me what the ACTUAL result was....well ??? 18 Billion in Deficit.
So forecasts are not a guide at all and if so are very flimsy and are subject to financial events outside of our governments control.

Oh, trust me - There are still some of us that care deeply about the country and political decisions - Quite a few are still clueless, but that can be used to describe the general voting populace anyway.

Couldn't agree more with this quote but voting rights are not determined by people's political intellect. Unfortunately modern politicians (especially in the Rudd-Gillard era) think popularity by appearing on mainstream media programs and social media is more important than nuts and bolts policy.