Are high rise vehicles safe in built up areas?

[ltd]

The Ford Holden thing was a joke dude.

And with the increased fuel consumption, that is overwhelmingly offset by the non taxed depreciative cost of the vehicle. Essentially, in a business lease/novated lease/hire purchase arrangement, the commercial vehicle aspect can save up to 60% taxes on the FBT cost. This is particularly true if the vehicle travels less than 40000 klm a year, as the tax rate increases the less K's you do.

[gmhdriver]

Originally Posted by ltd

The Ford Holden thing was a joke dude.

And with the increased fuel consumption, that is overwhelmingly offset by the non taxed depreciative cost of the vehicle. Essentially, in a business lease/novated lease/hire purchase arrangement, the commercial vehicle aspect can save up to 60% taxes on the FBT cost. This is particularly true if the vehicle travels less than 40000 klm a year, as the tax rate increases the less K's you do.

Fair enough, point taken about the joke.

I think that the authorities need to take a good hard look at the classifications of these vehicles, as some of the 4WD's on the market these days can hardly be described as 'commercial vehicles'.

[ltd]

Exactly. How is an X5 a commercial vehicle. This may sound trite but in actual fact 4wd's like the BMW X5 and the AMG55 are actually classified as commercial vehicles. I do not dispute the legitimacy of real 4wd ownership but seriously, the only time yuppie pack 4wd's ever leave the bitumen is when they are put on a hoist for servicing. These are the urban blight and these are the culprits who have sadly brought all 4wd's into disrepute.

[AUIII XR8 MAN]

I don't see a problem with them, It more who driving them.

[GasoLane]

Originally Posted by johnydep

Did you have a look at the height of the cruiser?

Yes, I also looked at the backround and the sign on the monster. It looked to me like the guy that owned it was also the owner of an Off Road centre and was using his Big Thong (It's not big enough to be a bigfoot) to show what could be done if you had the cash.

I just thought that the pic looked kind've setup to me.

If I photographed my 1968 VW Beetle outside a Maserati showroom would I have cause to shout that the Maserati gets from 0 to 100kmh in 5.1 secs and my VW takes 5.1 MINUTES, therefore Maserati's should be banned as they are dangerous.

Whilst I believe that some 4wd's should be limited to country use I also firmly believe that ANY vehicle is only as dangerous as the person driving it.

[johnydep]

Originally Posted by GasOLane

Yes, I also looked at the backround and the sign on the monster. It looked to me like the guy that owned it was also the owner of an Off Road centre and was using his Big Thong (It's not big enough to be a bigfoot) to show what could be done if you had the cash.

I just thought that the pic looked kind've setup to me.

.......

Wrong.

The guy that owns the landcruiser is involved in the building industry, the workshop that the photo was taken at does not do high rise suspension work, and the owners are acquaintances.

The vehicle is extremely high, that photo does not do justice to how high it is.

[dute]

Here is my message to any turd that thinks he or she will stop me from having a raised 4X4 in the city or in the country areas, :thebirds:

My family and myself over the years have had different types of 4X4's and you didn't hear any complaints from us when we have had to use our cars to get others out of trouble.

My thoughts are it's not the vehicle it's the driver.

[Casper]

I dont own a 4x4, never have, unlikely I ever will. I have no interest in them and personally find them unsafe.
Should they be banned? Hell no. Last time I checked this was still a free country. ITs bad enough that we slowly let the governments ban everything else, to allow them to start banning specific types of cars sets a dangerous precident. There is no way I'll ever support them being banned.. or excessivly taxed.. or even "culled" through any sort of dollar based scheme. First it will be 4x4's, then turbos, then V8's, then performance cars in general... then cars altogether.
I dont like 4x4's but I hate governemnt meddling in free choice a lot more.

[RED_EL_XR8]

Have to agree 100% Ghostie! I have no desire whatsoever for the High Hump Hatchbacks. I don't see the point.

Are they dangerous! Well they can be! But then so can any vehicle when its used in an inappropriate manner. As long as they are driven suitably for the conditions and more importantly the drivers ability I cannot see a problem.

These vehicle are now copping the impact design criteria of cars rather than trucks and these changes alone should be sufficient.

For many city 4WDing is a fashion statement, (easy red-necks! I did say for many) and in years to come I can see the balance changing from 4WD to the next automotive fashion statements. We are already seeing the trend move to vehicles like Territory which are much less truck like and more appropriate for dual role use.

[HOON69]

honestly i used to think 4wd's were a hazard to any city or suburb
but after owning one and still driving one they are as safe as the next vehicle

these jacked up 4wd are more safer imho then a majority of small cars with these skinny ar$ed tyres on em

all cars if driven with care are safe,as someone stated 100X now its not the car its the driver/owner

[GasoLane]

Originally Posted by johnydep

The guy that owns the landcruiser is involved in the building industry, the workshop that the photo was taken at does not do high rise suspension work, and the owners are acquaintances.

Ok, point taken but you have to admit that a pic of the 4WD with "Intense offroad" across the windscreen parked outside an off road shop looks like a driving advert. If the owner is a builder why buy it, ya cant carry many wheelbarrows in that!

If he DOES go off road where's the winch that should be on the front?

A few years ago a friend on mine who's dad has a farm in the Wimmera (Vic) took dad to a 4wd dealer when he wanted to trade in the old Land Rover.
Anyway Dad let youngish salesman rave on about the new beut 4wd with chrome wheels, carpet, cd player, satnav, leather etc etc...
I was told the look on the salesmans face was priceless when dad said " I wouldn't buy any 4wd that I could'nt open the doors and hose it out"!

[chevypower]

not everyone wants an electric winch - handwinches from TJM do a great job and will still work when the car is underwater

[HOON69]

i have a 4wd i dont acquire a winch thats what mates and a snatch strap is for

why go buy a winch when for 1% of the price for one i could buy a snatch strap

not all 4wd jack their rides up for the sake of it,its for recreational use and they dont live in the bush do they so where else they meant to park it?

[fast66]

Originally Posted by ltd

First off, I don't own a high performance car. Secondly, you do not know what I do mate so you might not want to be so dismissive of the information and experience I have.
Thirdly, if you naively believe that 4wd vehicles are no more dangerous than a normal sedan then you have typified the very problems that the rest of us motorists face.

Your arguement about how vehicles perform in an impact is so flawed that quite frankly everyone who has read your post is now dumber for having done so. It is this type of unadulterated ignorance that has made the 4wd issue such a big problem in the first place.

As for getting a clue mate, I put it to you that I have a clue and in fact you don't; by the fact that you obviously have no concept of different types of vehicle construction and the resultant concentration of forces, let alone the actual metallurgy of the materials used and their respective tensile strength.
If you would like a clue, perhaps you could spend a night with the local fire brigade and attend some accidents involving 4wd. Or better yet, perhaps you can check with the bureau of statistics and check what average percentage of either sedans or 4wd's have caused the most fatalities. Simply burying ones head in the sand does not make the problem go away, and denial that a problem exists is just fanciful.

Slow down there LTD, Tell me how material tensile strength has anything to do with the way a vehicle behaves in an accident. Last time I checked it would be more to do with Euler's buckling load analysis. In terms of vehicle construction, around 75% of "4wd' vehicles on our roads are actually constructed in the same monocoque method as passenger vehicles, rather than the traditional ladder frame chassis method.
I agree with much of what you have said, but to attempt to "baffle with bulls**T" doesn't give you credability.
For the record, I agree with many here in that all enthusiast motorists should stick together and present a united front to the Harrold Scrubbys of the world.

[schmidty]

Another thing that people seldom think about is this. Not everyone can afford to own a vehicle for every different activity they undertake in life! Not everyone has the money to do this so they see it as more economical to have something that does the lot My soon to be inlaws head away on the odd expedition. So they own a machine thats suitable for the task ( Turbo Diesel Cruiser $74k, Mods like winch, snorkel, bars, bigger wheels and tyres, diff locks, LR fuel tanks, suspension lift and upgrade = another 15-20k.) and is going to be reliable and safe in remote areas. You have custom built your machine to handle the extreme situations it may be faced with. After spending that kind of money on a 4wd it'd be rediculous to not drive it around becasue people are scared of being near them! Cars these days are worth too much and depreciate too fast to leave in the shed.
There are extremes in everything. One in 1000 4wds would be modified like that pic, and i bet for every "dangerously modified" 4wd thats on the road you could find a grosly unroadworthy car that presents just as much danger. If its engineered and modified in accordance to the laws, then why shouldnt it be on the road?!!! If its not, it should be pulled off the road!

[Outbackjack]

Well said Schmidty. How about you guys that want 4 wheelers taken off the roads in this country come out here to the outback and sprout your B******T to a few station hands and farmers!!! Come on I dare you. : And just in case it hasnt been mentioned, they raise the vehicle mostly to increase articulation. Ground clearance can only really be increased by bigger wheels. May be normal sedans should be taxed off the road.... Where I live the 4 wheelers out number the "little" cars. (sarcasm). It is anoying how some people that live in the city think that they are the only road users in this big country.

[CRUSHU F150]

I read a few of the first posts, on the first page, then got tired of the same repetitive dribble that followed.

Each of us is entitled to their opinions, but as most of the people on this forum are owners and drivers of modified vehicles, perhaps you shouldn't be slinging sh1t. If their were no individuality in the cars on the road, it would wipe out most of this forums cars as well.
Why are some of the members here unhappy about 4x4's etc, but are less unhappy about 600 - 1000hp cars with 4500 - 6500rpm convertors with big tyres, spools (but not full floater diffs, so when you break an axle, your wheel comes off) on the roads.
Stereotypicaly people in modified cars drive erraticly, and lifted 4x4 drivers are driven more casually. How do the statistics go, with car crashes? I tend to see more modified cars wrapped around light poles, killing drivers and/or passengers, than rolled over 4x4's, or people being hit from behind (with a casualty).

Now I am a member of this forum, and have been for a while, as well as the US site, and have a background in modified cars, Drag cars and have now found interest in lifted 4x4's, and find it disapointing that members here should be slinging sh1t at fellow modified vehicles.

"Flame suit on" ;)

All,

We all love our cars and enjoy that feeling of going for a drive. I have had my sport cars in the past and am now a avid 4WDer.

I know I cant drive my car as fast as a normal passenger car, the same you know you cant take your Tickford Falcon down dirt roads. I will admit the manufacturs are markerting 4WD's as 7 seaters which mean more familys are buying them as a shopping trolley. But after driving one you soon realise there handling points (Good and bad).

In short I can apprieciate the nice lowered sports car next to me at the lights and I hope you guys can apprieciate the rasied 4WD next to you.

Thanks

Steve

FREE COUNTRY so yes , if they ban the 4x4's how long before all you rev heads and rice burners get your vehicles banned. how many of your cars race at drag strips ? if you use them there i guess they should be banned from the streets as well, and if you dont use them to race than why have a car capable of doing twice the legal road limit ? how many deaths have been caused by 4x4's in city's ? im sure there have been a lot more deaths associated with hi speed hi performance cars , either way its the individual not the vehicle that causes accidents .

and if your that scared of big 4x4 running you over paint your car fluro pink so you can be seen easier (im guessing that would be the colour most scared little girls like)

Originally Posted by mustang

think about it for a second......why would u need a car that high in a city......do they feel that the streets of say melbourne are that bad that they need a big bad A$$ 4x4 to be safe..... not to mention that it prolly has illegal suspension hieghts.

Think about it. Why do you need a veicle that do speeds of 170KMPh in a city.

Next your vehicle will be banned and we we all be driving scooters.

[kempster1]

Originally Posted by schmidty

Another thing that people seldom think about is this. Not everyone can afford to own a vehicle for every different activity they undertake in life! Not everyone has the money to do this so they see it as more economical to have something that does the lot My soon to be inlaws head away on the odd expedition. So they own a machine thats suitable for the task ( Turbo Diesel Cruiser $74k, Mods like winch, snorkel, bars, bigger wheels and tyres, diff locks, LR fuel tanks, suspension lift and upgrade = another 15-20k.) and is going to be reliable and safe in remote areas. You have custom built your machine to handle the extreme situations it may be faced with. After spending that kind of money on a 4wd it'd be rediculous to not drive it around becasue people are scared of being near them! Cars these days are worth too much and depreciate too fast to leave in the shed.
There are extremes in everything. One in 1000 4wds would be modified like that pic, and i bet for every "dangerously modified" 4wd thats on the road you could find a grosly unroadworthy car that presents just as much danger. If its engineered and modified in accordance to the laws, then why shouldnt it be on the road?!!! If its not, it should be pulled off the road!

This post say's everything that needs to be said!!!
Love my 4x4, it put my boat on the beach where my old ford could not

[South]

Oh my golly gosh...

How many of you sports car enthusiast that own modified taxis require their vehicle to accelerate, in the suburbs, to 100km/hr in 6 seconds or less? Is it also necessary to lower the vehicle to improve its handling? considering a lot of the new vehicles on the market now can take corners at the posted 50km/hr speed limit within surburbia, so its not like your actually gaining anything by doing so.

You will find that both 4WDs and taxi enthusiasts have illegal modifications done to their vehicle, in both cases the owners hope the police will not defect them, and are willing to take the risk. Excessive lowering of vehicles is quite common and illegal, body lifts are in some cases excessive and again illegal. Tyres and rims are the same for both types of vehicles, anything larger than 15mm over stock in most states is now illegal. The list goes on and on.

Im fortunate to be in both categories, I own a modified Fairmont that hugs the road, looks good and drives like a dream. My partner owns a modified 4WD thats been lifted, has bigger tyres, long range fuel tank, bullbar, airlocker etc etc.... this car also drives like a dream, is very safe on and off the road and hasnt been the cause of/or been in an accident yet.

When im driving around (doesnt matter what car Im in), I dont watch out for 4WDs, I watch out for the dipИИИИs in their hotted up cars driving like they own the road... Atleast the 4WDs legally do what they have been modified for, which is far from the case with the modified taxis.

A lot of you need to grow up quick smart! You cry bloody murder when Today Tonight or the likes blame this that and the other on modified sports cars, but as soon as it comes to any other form of transport you fire up, form an uneducated opinion and spew this crap to all and sundry.

Get a clue!

[EDXR]

I believe that there is a place for big 4wd vehicles and i have no problem with people owning the as long as they use them for what they were designed for.

If you want to go off road on a regular basis or have to tow some huge boat when you go on holidays then fair enough.

I just don't see why mrs jones down the street needs a 2 tonne nissan patrol complete with huge metal bull bar that sits 4 foot in the air to drop the kids off at school and do the grocery shopping once a week.

I don't own a 4wd and i don't hate them.

I just queston if some people realy need that kind of vehicle.

[Outbackjack]

Originally Posted by EDXR

I believe that there is a place for big 4wd vehicles and i have no problem with people owning the as long as they use them for what they were designed for.

If you want to go off road on a regular basis or have to tow some huge boat when you go on holidays then fair enough.

I just don't see why mrs jones down the street needs a 2 tonne nissan patrol complete with huge metal bull bar that sits 4 foot in the air to drop the kids off at school and do the grocery shopping once a week.

I don't own a 4wd and i don't hate them.

I just queston if some people realy need that kind of vehicle.

This was disscuused previously. Most people cant afford the luxury of having a car sit around just for the odd holiday. 4 wheelers are just as safe as any other vehicle on the road if they are driven properly! And that means other drivers exercise a little bit of common sense around these big 4X4's as well, ie none of us EVER dart in front of these cars when they are leaving extra stopping distance in front of themselves, now do we!!

[South]

Mrs Jones uses the patrol/cruiser/pajero because she feels safer in the bigger vehicle (I sure as hell would rather be in a 4wd in an accident than in a sedan!) so Mr Jones has to hand over the keys to his weekend/holiday toy and gets to use Mrs Jones little runabout.

It is for the lady, all down to feeling safe on the road... Its not a power trip, its not a 'watch out for me or I will run you over'... and before anyone fires up over safety, your lowered vehicle is endangering your life everytime you drive near a standard height vehicle. If you dont know why, then you shouldnt be replying to this thread, as you obviously have no brains :P

[EDXR]

Originally Posted by Outbackjack

This was disscuused previously. Most people cant afford the luxury of having a car sit around just for the odd holiday. 4 wheelers are just as safe as any other vehicle on the road if they are driven properly! And that means other drivers exercise a little bit of common sense around these big 4X4's as well, ie none of us EVER dart in front of these cars when they are leaving extra stopping distance in front of themselves, now do we!!

I don't get the chance to "dart in front of them" as alot (not all!!!) seem to be tailgating me. :P

If anything i'm darting out of the way so they can fly past me.

Originally Posted by EDXR

I believe that there is a place for big 4wd vehicles and i have no problem with people owning the as long as they use them for what they were designed for.

If you want to go off road on a regular basis or have to tow some huge boat when you go on holidays then fair enough.

I just don't see why mrs jones down the street needs a 2 tonne nissan patrol complete with huge metal bull bar that sits 4 foot in the air to drop the kids off at school and do the grocery shopping once a week.

I don't own a 4wd and i don't hate them.

I just queston if some people realy need that kind of vehicle.

why do you need a falcon xr ...... because it is your right to choose ..thats why!!!!

[Thunderau]

You boys know how to get new members don't you. Have a look at the number of new members with single posts.

Please remember no matter what you say you will all have people with the opposite view, take myself for example, I have both a Nissan Patrol which you would love to see banned but also have a EF Ford turbo, which people with a counter view would love to see banned.

Lets all take a step back and look a it from both sides.

Where is the evidence that soccer mums dont head up the beach, highcountry and so on once, twice or more a year. Because if they did not why wouldnt they be driving the family falcon, commodore wagon as they are a lot more nimmble, quicker, and easier to drive.

It is not ilegal to drive a 4wd offroad up steep hills, on the beach through mud holes and so on. What excuses are there for owning a vehecle at all in the city when there are trains and buses except maybe if your a tradie.

Maybe you should sell your falcon because when my daughter grows up she will want to drive a barrina like all young teenage girls drive. After all a barina can seat 5 and weighs less than half of a falcon.

Example of man kind. Designs a motor bike. Every year it gets faster and faster then people start coming off and dying. Instead of slowing it down they design the helmet.

We all talk crap in our lives some more than others. Talking about the gun in the wrong hand we live in a society that comes to conclusions through evidence before the gun is fired.

Conclusion. Exhuast fumes from every vehecle is killing us all but I love my 4wd.

[EDXR]

Originally Posted by South

Mrs Jones uses the patrol/cruiser/pajero because she feels safer in the bigger vehicle (I sure as hell would rather be in a 4wd in an accident than in a sedan!) so Mr Jones has to hand over the keys to his weekend/holiday toy and gets to use Mrs Jones little runabout.

It is for the lady, all down to feeling safe on the road... Its not a power trip, its not a 'watch out for me or I will run you over'... and before anyone fires up over safety, your lowered vehicle is endangering your life everytime you drive near a standard height vehicle. If you dont know why, then you shouldnt be replying to this thread, as you obviously have no brains :P

Not being a smarta55 here,i agree with you completely on the "feeling more secure in a big 4wd" thing, but what about the other driver?

If Mrs Jones was ever to be involved in a serious accident the other driver would be stuffed.