According to Drive Ranger XL and XLS are not selling?

[Franco Cozzo]

Another thing I didn't consider but Ranger Raptor at its price point entices RAM 1500 buyers back into their fold, where as before none of the Thailand Specials had a way of competing with the converted American utes, if you're ended up in a RAM1500 because you wanted a ute with some balls, but not necessarily its size then the Ranger Raptor has you covered - might snag a couple off the RAM 1500 a month easy.

Sure its not big numbers but its a few hundred extra sales you may have lost.

[.:4:.]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Another thing I didn't consider but Ranger Raptor at its price point entices RAM 1500 buyers back into their fold, where as before none of the Thailand Specials had a way of competing with the converted American utes, if you're ended up in a RAM1500 because you wanted a ute with some balls, but not necessarily its size then the Ranger Raptor has you covered - might snag a couple off the RAM 1500 a month easy.

Sure its not big numbers but its a few hundred extra sales you may have lost.

Yeah, but raptors, wildtracks, ram anything, they more likely wont be used as the intended purpose. So more status symbol then utility. Yeah, i see a few ram 1500s getting about in my area. They sound good being a pushrod v8. Never seen one with a canopy on the back, let alone a wheel barrow in the back or ladder racks on it.
Or even a scratch.
I dont understand the whole fancy ute thing.
Ute as a ute, yes. Ute as a luxo car but rides like a ute? To me that's just a bit silly. Exeption being if you cannot afford 2 cars so the work ute has to be the family car, in that case, well, you wont be trying to fake big manning it with a raptor or trx ram or whatever.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Another thing I didn't consider but Ranger Raptor at its price point entices RAM 1500 buyers back into their fold, where as before none of the Thailand Specials had a way of competing with the converted American utes, if you're ended up in a RAM1500 because you wanted a ute with some balls, but not necessarily its size then the Ranger Raptor has you covered - might snag a couple off the RAM 1500 a month easy.

Sure its not big numbers but its a few hundred extra sales you may have lost.

Internally, Ford was asking itself the same questions regarding full sized pickup sales
but it boils down to this, is it the size of the pickup or the engine……

The answer is yes and no because clearly, some buyers will be drawn back to Ranger Raptor
while others will buy F150 because of its added size.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by .:4:.

Im still unsure as to why the basic ute pretty much is a thing of the past.

I had a base 2013 2.2L ranger, single cab low rider, 6 speed manual as a work car. Would i buy one as a personal car? Nope. Yes it was not fast, however it did what it needed to do very well. It had a canopy on the back so could carry heaps of stock and tools. I frequently towed +- 2 tonnes with it and it did that sorta ok. Interior wise it was nice enough, vynal floors for a work ute is a good thing. No touch screen radio, again for a work ute thats a good thing.
That got replaced in december 2019 with a new storm trooper triton. So probably the cheapest diesel ute on the market. Still 2wd, but they all are hi riders and again single cab. This one was a cab chassis but had a nice caddy service body put on the back. Similar basic interior, but a touch screen radio (smudge screen), but this one was an auto. For the kays i did at that job, the auto was nice. I still reckon the clutch and gearbox in the ranger are the best i have had for a manual. the extra power of the mitsubishi 2.4 diesel was noticeable. Still towed as frequently the same sized trailers and it was nicer to tow with, probably due to being an auto. The main detractor about the storm trooper was, well, god they are ugly.
But both those utes were everything you need and a little more. Not luxury an any form of the word, but comfortable seats, drove good but only loaded, served the utility purpose perfectly fine. I did manage to get my old manager to spill the cost of both those basic utes one day. 2.2 XL ranger with the canopy, 31k. Storm trooper diesel auto with service body, 37k. The mitsubishi was run out pricing though for the base cab chassis.

As I mentioned above, you’re in the segment of buyers who use their Utes to do work and carry things. Many now lease crew cab 4x4s as company vehicles that can tow a builders trailer during the week or jet skis on the weekend.

Ford and Toyota clearly besotted by strong buyer response/demand for those +$50k to $90k Utes and SUVs. The fish are literally jumping into the boat with orders to the middle of 2023 and growing.

The single cab XL with a basic single turbo 2.0 diesel is now so over priced for the target buyers,
Ford is not prepared to buy market share by slitting it own throat on prices but something tells me
that there’s a better way to do this. By ending all the 2.0 diesels and go V6 exclusive, that would
give XL buyers a reason to pick it over the other low rent pickups

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by .:4:.

Yeah, but raptors, wildtracks, ram anything, they more likely wont be used as the intended purpose. So more status symbol then utility. Yeah, i see a few ram 1500s getting about in my area. They sound good being a pushrod v8. Never seen one with a canopy on the back, let alone a wheel barrow in the back or ladder racks on it.
Or even a scratch.
I dont understand the whole fancy ute thing.
Ute as a ute, yes. Ute as a luxo car but rides like a ute? To me that's just a bit silly. Exeption being if you cannot afford 2 cars so the work ute has to be the family car, in that case, well, you wont be trying to fake big manning it with a raptor or trx ram or whatever.

Utes have always been the 'bogan coupe' at least in the last 30 years, what else would compete with a VE SS Ute or a XR6 Turbo for $40K DA or what ever they were in the late 2000s?

Add in tax advantages that they've brought in the last 20 years plus the dual cabs being the 'do everything' vehicle.

Also the American utes drive and ride a lot nicer than Thailand Specials so it's not as much of a concern getting around unloaded.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Its not so much people being stupid its the manufacturers exploiting market conditions, at the end of the day there isn't really 'competition' between them at the bottom end of the market, until one goes above and beyond, and so far Ford is the first one to suddenly come out with an option at the high end of the market.

Whilst all those market influences are valid Franco, the point still remains that its up to the buyer to decide if they'll accept them as reason to pay overs now.
Ranger XL/XLS is a perfect example of what happens when consumers say no thanks and buy the cheaper(Hilux Workmate) alternative as we see in the monthly 4x2 figures.
The price on XL/XLS drops, and in only 3 short months I might add.
Looking at all the supposed orders for high end examples and its the same principal, the longer the list the greater the justification to inflate prices.
If those people on the waiting list all cancelled and said get back to us when the price is 10k cheaper what do you think Ford would do?
Abandon Australia?
Cut production?
I dont think so, they like our money and as the old saying goes, a fool and their money are easily parted.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

Whilst all those market influences are valid Franco, the point still remains that its up to the buyer to decide if they'll accept them as reason to pay overs now.
Ranger XL/XLS is a perfect example of what happens when consumers say no thanks and buy the cheaper(Hilux Workmate) alternative as we see in the monthly 4x2 figures.
The price on XL/XLS drops, and in only 3 short months I might add.
Looking at all the supposed orders for high end examples and its the same principal, the longer the list the greater the justification to inflate prices.
If those people on the waiting list all cancelled and said get back to us when the price is 10k cheaper what do you think Ford would do?
Abandon Australia?
Cut production?
I dont think so, they like our money and as the old saying goes, a fool and their money are easily parted.

While I agree that buyer demand is driving higher prices, the fact that people are prepared
to pay more and wait longer tells us that the train has left the station. If anyone bails on an
order there’s thousands prepared to take that place for earlier delivery.

Getting push back on prices with tens of thousands of placed orders isn’t gonna happen.
Ford knows that buyers know that…..man, I thought a $65k Wildtrak/ RR was pushing it,
$80k to $90k prices today isn’t stopping the line up.

So to your point with XL/XLS, has Ford now stretched out the XL to RR price range so much
that it needs to do something creative to keep interest in the base models, otherwise why buy them?

[Tassie f100]

Originally Posted by jpd80

While I agree that buyer demand is driving higher prices, the fact that people are prepared
to pay more and wait longer tells us that the train has left the station. If anyone bails on an
order there’s thousands prepared to take that place for earlier delivery.

Getting push back on prices with tens of thousands of placed orders isn’t gonna happen.
Ford knows that buyers know that…..man, I thought a $65k Wildtrak/ RR was pushing it,
$80k to $90k prices today isn’t stopping the line up.

So to your point with XL/XLS, has Ford now stretched out the XL to RR price range so much
that it needs to do something creative to keep interest in the base models, otherwise why buy them?

Yeah I understand that Ford would rather sell Wildtracks rather than XLs because realistically it probably only costs $5000 extra to build the upmarket,but it sells for $20-30000 more.I would buy a more basic model because I am still able to turn on headlights and wipers etc and I know how to stay in my own lane and know when to brake behind the car in front.

[Big_Daz]

I saw a story on CarSales that VW are going to offer an Amarok Core V6D, which is pretty much XL/XLS spec. Be interested to see what they are charging and its popularity.

[.:4:.]

Well, mercedes tried that with the failure that was the x clasd. So yeah a rebadge of the nissan np300 navara and there was a pov spec single cab. Seen a few pov spec x class utes when new, but only out the front of the mercedes comercial dealership. I see the odd np300 navara on the roads, more d40s but still not many in comparison to the older d22 navaras. Dont see a huge amount of those either. Granted the d22 is now an old ute.
So i think mb went too hard too soon, which is a tad odd as vito's and sprinter vans are a common sight.
Cannot see vw getting a market share with the amarok. Partially due to the badge sharing with the current ranger and simply buyer perception. Badge sharing worked quite well with say the bt50 and ranger back then.

[hayseed]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Whats 4x2 Ranger XL single cab w 2.0L TD worth?

I don't think they even do a single cab - its not on their build and price on their website? Why would you not have a single cab Ranger?

My Local Ford dealer has a couple of New 4x4 single cab rangers in His Holding Yard..

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by hayseed

My Local Ford dealer has a couple of New 4x4 single cab rangers in His Holding Yard..

Yet you can't do a build and price on single cab models on Ford's own website

Not on their website, doesn't exist as far as I'm concerned. How are customers supposed to see your range when you don't even list your own products on your website?

[hayseed]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Yet you can't do a build and price on single cab models on Ford's own website

Not on their website, doesn't exist as far as I'm concerned. How are customers supposed to see your range when you don't even list your own products on your website?

Here you Go mate.. .for Your eyes Only...LOL

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by hayseed

Here you Go mate.. .for Your eyes Only...LOL

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Good work, we've confirmed they do actually exist

Now whats the drive away price, what are the options and how come these ones don't have trays on them

The headlights look like 7"x5" semi sealed beam assemblies packaged inside a fancy housing

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

and how come these ones don't have trays on them

I'm not sure the starting price of around $45k includes a tray.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by prydey

I'm not sure the starting price of around $45k includes a tray.

Ouch, I'll have mine with a tray but get rid of the indicators, brakes and the seats, I'll put a milk crate in there to sit on.

This is the problem with no website for build and price, we don't know what it does/doesn't include and what the RRP is as well as costs of options.

[DFB FGXR6]

Originally Posted by hayseed

Here you Go mate.. .for Your eyes Only...LOL

image

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Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Yet you can't do a build and price on single cab models on Ford's own website

Not on their website, doesn't exist as far as I'm concerned. How are customers supposed to see your range when you don't even list your own products on your website?

I started a thread on this a month ago -

https://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=11496042

So yes, new-gen single cab Rangers are in stock and available but................why is this not represented on the Ford website? I even had a Ford representative tell me that they were not available.

Look, I get that Ford want to sell high profit models, but they are driving away customers because the entry level models are either not advertised, not represented for sale on their website or are simply too expensive compared to the competition.

I never want to hear a car company show surprise at the way the Chinese brands are seeing success in this country. If you keep jacking the prices up, then you are simply handing sales away to the Chinese or to those with more realistic prices.

I keep saying this, but I would love a Ranger Sport or Wildtrack, but they simply don't suit my needs. A single cab chassis does, but Ford price a basic model at $45,000. I'm a Ford man to the core, but that price is $15,000 more than the PX MK II that I already own, and at least $10,000 more than a competitor.

And finally, you cannot argue that producing XL and XLS is just stealing production and sales away from the higher profit models. The Ranger XL has a different customer base, customers who use the car as a tool of the trade rather than a jack of all trades show pony, where vinyl floors and a basic spec are seen as a plus rather than a minus. Why pay $60,000 + for a vehicle that is going to get beaten up?

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by DFB FGXR6

I never want to hear a car company show surprise at the way the Chinese brands are seeing success in this country. If you keep jacking the prices up, then you are simply handing sales away to the Chinese or to those with more realistic prices.

Even these cheeky bastards are shoving prices up too, but they're still flying well under the other options

[hayseed]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

how come these ones don't have trays on them

Because the Tray can vary from a $2,500 Poverty Spec Aluminum POS all the way up to a ~$20,000 Service Body..

[naddis01]

Originally Posted by DFB FGXR6

And finally, you cannot argue that producing XL and XLS is just stealing production and sales away from the higher profit models. The Ranger XL has a different customer base, customers who use the car as a tool of the trade rather than a jack of all trades show pony, where vinyl floors and a basic spec are seen as a plus rather than a minus. Why pay $60,000 + for a vehicle that is going to get beaten up?

Yes, but if production is at capacity, then those cheaper models are taking the production space of the higher profit models.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by hayseed

Because the Tray can vary from a $2,500 Poverty Spec Aluminum POS all the way up to a ~$20,000 Service Body..

Yes, but Toyota one comes with tray for $32K DA.

See why we need the single cab on the website?

Originally Posted by naddis01

Yes, but if production is at capacity, then those cheaper models are taking the production space of the higher profit models.

Then why even make one at all? Just dedicate the entire production line to Raptor and Wildtrack.

They must have made XL/XLS for a reason, you can't say they spent the time/money making them, then turn around and say nah they take away production capacity from our more profitable models so we won't make them.

Doesn't make sense to me, maybe they have a problem of not enough production capacity and they need more people and real estate.

I'm sure South Africa can make some of our Rangers for us, they made my Focus.

[BENT_8]

If they had more production capacity the wait lines would be shorter and the hysteria to be in it would drop away as too would the justification for price gouging.

New car market has gone down the land development path, deliver/release below demand and watch them fight to pay overs for the opportunity to be amongst the next lucky few.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Tassie f100

Yeah I understand that Ford would rather sell Wildtracks rather than XLs because realistically it probably only costs $5000 extra to build the upmarket,but it sells for $20-30000 more.I would buy a more basic model because I am still able to turn on headlights and wipers etc and I know how to stay in my own lane and know when to brake behind the car in front.

It’s more like $30,000 to $40,000 more than an XL but that seems to be what the majority of Ranger customers want.

I don’t disagree with an XL model, I just feel that it’s in a price sensitive market and doesn’t stand out
as value for money with higher price than competitors when it’s stuck with a base 2.0 diesel

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

If they had more production capacity the wait lines would be shorter and the hysteria to be in it would drop away as too would the justification for price gouging.

New car market has gone down the land development path, deliver/release below demand and watch them fight to pay overs for the opportunity to be amongst the next lucky few.

At the moment, Ford can report to head office that it’s order books a full until the middle of next year
Either this is all about brownie points or Ford seriously underestimated demand with new higher prices.
Ford only planned 29,000 V6 engine production for this year, if every Aussie buyer wants a V6, can’t build ‘‘em
all unless it’s over the 12 months….I bet there’s some rejiggering going on behind the scenes to get more V6s.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by jpd80

At the moment, Ford can report to head office that it’s order books a full until the middle of next year
Either this is all about brownie points or Ford seriously underestimated demand with new higher prices.
Ford only planned 29,000 V6 engine production for this year, if every Aussie buyer wants a V6, can’t build ‘‘em
all unless it’s over the 12 months….I bet there’s some rejiggering going on behind the scenes to get more V6s.

I just find it hard to believe that Ford cant supply 50k V6's from its modern manufacturing plants in 6 months to satisfy the demand of one of its biggest Ranger markets when little old Holden pumped out 70k Buick V6 a year for VT'/Xs a quarter of a century ago in a backwater like Melbourne.

[Itsme]

Deleted

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

I just find it hard to believe that Ford cant supply 50k V6's from its modern manufacturing plants in 6 months to satisfy the demand of one of its biggest Ranger markets when little old Holden pumped out 70k Buick V6 a year for VT'/Xs a quarter of a century ago in a backwater like Melbourne.

That’s a false equivalence though, the commodore was a predominantly V6 based product
where as the new Ranger V6 diesel first time out was supposed to be the premium engine.
Not excusing Ford here but they must have sensed that the V6 would be a huge success…
Mind you this was the same company complaining that Aussie buyers were too capacity oriented
while trying to push the 2.0 biturbo diesel, so maybe still holding onto incorrect ideas.

[Tassie f100]

Originally Posted by jpd80

That’s a false equivalence though, the commodore was a predominantly V6 based product
where as the new Ranger V6 diesel first time out was supposed to be the premium engine.
Not excusing Ford here but they must have sensed that the V6 would be a huge success…
Mind you this was the same company complaining that Aussie buyers were too capacity oriented
while trying to push the 2.0 biturbo diesel, so maybe still holding onto incorrect ideas.

Maybe the problem with Ford is it is an old American company too set in their ways about what they think customers want.Australians and a lot of other countries are more interested in getting fairly good performance economically.The Yanks are slowly coming around to the fact that not every buyer needs 6-7 litres of fuel guzzling engnes,when in the majority of cases 2-3 litres is quite sufficient

[Franco Cozzo]

I think it's a cultural problem for them how they always read the market wrong locally with how they plan their production for what the Australian market wants within a model for low, mid or high specification vehicles.

[DFB FGXR6]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

I think it's a cultural problem for them how they always read the market wrong locally with how they plan their production for what the Australian market wants within a model for low, mid or high specification vehicles.

Originally Posted by Tassie f100

Maybe the problem with Ford is it is an old American company too set in their ways about what they think customers want.Australians and a lot of other countries are more interested in getting fairly good performance economically.The Yanks are slowly coming around to the fact that not every buyer needs 6-7 litres of fuel guzzling engnes,when in the majority of cases 2-3 litres is quite sufficient

You are both onto something there.

Over the decades, Ford US management, either posted here in Australia or based at head office in the US, insisted on certain directions in relation to model choice, powertrain engineering, styling ect. Almost always, these people had absolutely no knowledge of the Australian market, forcing the local management team to prove their side of the story. In other words, Ford US told the local team what Australian customers wanted rather than listening to the local team about what customers actually wanted.

Example - 1997 Taurus.

Ford AUS - "We need funds to further develop the Falcon platform for a new generation."

Ford USA - "Why develop another Falcon when we already have a large sedan that you could simply start manufacturing without an extensive engineering campaign or tooling."

Ford AUS - "That model is too narrow for Australian tastes, is front wheel drive which is perceived negatively by customers and compromises towing ability. The powertrain also lacks torque for towing and general Australian driving."

Ford USA - "The Taurus is an already developed model and would require less investment. Customers will adapt to the perceived drawbacks".

Ford AUS - "We loose customers to a key rival with that model, we can develop a new generation Falcon and put it into production for half the price it would be to tool up for an existing model in our plants."

Ford USA - "Prove it! In the meantime, we will send you Taurus sedans to sell alongside the Falcon to prove our point."

Ford AUS - "No problem.........."

The end result? Australia got a new generation Falcon, developed at a fraction of the cost of a Taurus. Meanwhile, the Taurus bombed and sold two fifths of fu.k all.

I can name a number of other similar instances, XK Falcon, AU Falcon styling, V6 engines...........you get the point. So much internal self-sabotage and we-know-better mentality ends up costing Ford more than it saves.