Burnley Tunnel fire

[FLYXR6]

The vehicle that stopped in the Tunnel is a K&S truck... They only run new tyres on there fleet trucks wether they are local or interstate. The tyre had completly disintergrated and the ensuing smoke and debri caused the driver to pull over and put his hazards on. He was there for a min and a half before he was hit...... Thats along time with cars going past at 80km/h. City link has a tow truck on 24/7 stand by for a break down but it wouldn't of helped in this situation. The driver did what they are taught at driving school. Stop as safe as it is to do so..... He didn't jam on the breaks or swerve into the lane. He slowly came to a stop. put on his hazards and waited for city link to close the lane. Just because a car ran up his *** doesn't make it his fault. Who is breaking the law if you get rear ended? You? i don't think so. Unfortunatly 3 people died because someone made an error in judgement, wether it was the driver of the car or the driver of the truck.

[Nostalgia]

Originally Posted by schmidty

Based on what????

That the newspaper said so? Or you just reckon?

The intensity of the fire and the fact that the walls are thinner than they should be.

[LUXO_8]

Originally Posted by EAadam

The intensity of the fire and the fact that the walls are thinner than they should be.

thinner by a few mm in a few spots.........they're still friggin thick concrete man.


do you think if it was unsafe they'd let so many motorists pass through there every day? i dont think so...

do you think if it is deemed unsafe after the investigation into this accident, they would let motorists resume traveling through there???.... again, dont think so....

[schmidty]

This tragedy had the potential to become so so much worse.The fact that it didnt, shows that apart from the drivers who were caught up in the explosive whirlwind of events that happened after the first vehicle made contact with another, the other drivers who were following did a very good job in avoiding the carnage in front.

For those who did not see todays herald sun

- March 24,1999
A truck travelling in the Mont Blanc Tunnel between Italy and France develops a fuel leak and chatches fire. This spreads to other vehicles, causeing the deaths of 39 people.

- May 29
A 60 car pile up catches fire and explodesin Austria's Tauern Tunnel killing 12 and injuring 50. The tunnel is closed for 3 months of repairs.

-October 24, 2001
Two trucks crash and cause a fireball hotter than 1000 degreesC in St Gotthard Rd Tunnel, Switzerland. 11 peopleare killed and 40 vehicles are fused together. The tunnel is closed for two months.

-August 23 2005
One man is killed whena truck and car collide in New York's Brooklyn-Battery Tunnel

-September 16 2006
Nine people are killed and 6 injured when a car and bus carrying an ice hockey team collide in Switzerland's Viamala Tunnel. A second car is incinerated.

The emergency procedures put in place, the response from emergency services, and the speed and manner in which the tunnel was evacuated should be praised.

[Nostalgia]

Originally Posted by MADNC_8

thinner by a few mm in a few spots.........they're still friggin thick concrete man.


do you think if it was unsafe they'd let so many motorists pass through there every day? i dont think so...

do you think if it is deemed unsafe after the investigation into this accident, they would let motorists resume traveling through there???.... again, dont think so....

Yes and Yes. No not thinner by a few mm in spots, try thinner by at least 2 inches in alot of sections of the whole tunnel.

[GK351]

Originally Posted by EAadam

The intensity of the fire and the fact that the walls are thinner than they should be.

Are you talking about the partitioned walls in the tunnel?
they have no structual support within tunnels

it would take a well set up team to plant explosives within its
stress points to collapse a tunnel.

[schmidty]

Originally Posted by FLYXR6

The driver did what they are taught at driving school. Stop as safe as it is to do so..... He didn't jam on the breaks or swerve into the lane. He slowly came to a stop. put on his hazards and waited for city link to close the lane. Just because a car ran up his *** doesn't make it his fault.

At some point, instinct and common sense have to over ride whatever it is that you are taught from a generalised teaching scenario.

He would have been totally correct in pulling over both legally and under the banner of common sense had he been on the monash itself, or up the hume, or somewhere safe to do so. But this is a scenario that is not covered in any basic or other training that i've ever heard of.

I have actually gone from feelings of anger and disbelief at the actions of the driver who pulled over for the blowout, to thinking what this 1 error in judgement has just done to his life. The guy will more than likely not get back in a truck, let alone drive through the tunnel. Wouldn't suprise me if the guy thinks about topping himself. It'd be such a rotten vision to have in your head while you try and sleep at night and most probably every day for a hell of a long time.

[Nostalgia]

Originally Posted by GK5766

Are you talking about the partitioned walls in the tunnel?
they have no structual support within tunnels

it would take a well set up team to plant explosives within its
stress points to collapse a tunnel.

Im talking about the structural walls. The partitioned walls do absolutely nothing in this tunnel as the structure itself is weak.

[FLYXR6]

i guess, but if he had continued driving and sent debri acrosss the lanes we may have ended up with a diferent pile up further along the tunnel. This will be one of the biggest "what ifs" in Melbourne history.

[EDXR6T]

Bracksie's the one that screwed up hear with not putting a service lane in, Its a decent stretch of road and if you break down you got nowhere to go.

Lucky Some smart person pushed them to put water sprinklers in. As it would have been alot worse if they were not there.

Originally Posted by EAadam

I reckon that tunnel will collapse in time.

Someones been watching one to many Stallone movies.:

[JC]

Originally Posted by schmidty

I have actually gone from feelings of anger and disbelief at the actions of the driver who pulled over for the blowout, to thinking what this 1 error in judgement has just done to his life. The guy will more than likely not get back in a truck, let alone drive through the tunnel. Wouldn't suprise me if the guy thinks about topping himself. It'd be such a rotten vision to have in your head while you try and sleep at night and most probably every day for a hell of a long time.

If the report above that other drivers got on the UHF and told him to pull over, does that change your thinking? I think it might, but who knows if that's true (it's on the internet, so it must be?!). If he was seriously told that sparks were eminating from his truck, he and other truck drivers may have thought that the best way not to worry/panic other drivers would be for him to pull over (sparks could mean so many things - rim on road, diff/suspension tearing itself to pieces - who knows until someone stops and looks). I wouldn't panic at seeing sparks coming from a truck in front of/next to me, but I certainly would be concerned, especially in the confines of a tunnel.

I know we've gone to and fro on this, and it's good to see you are thinking about how the driver as a person may be affected. I reckon he'll be back in a truck soon enough, but won't be pulling over for anyone in a hurry. As the crash wasn't actually his fault (debatable, I know), he may not really get that worked up about it, but he sure would be asking "what if?" even more than anyone else involved, I would imagine.

[Scott]

In my little mind space, I can't belive some of the posts here which are in effect clearing the truck driver of any wrong doing (yes JC, I know you are just saying he wasn't the final cause ) Common sense must prevail. Rubber, sparks or flames would not even come close to getting me to stop in the middle of a motorway. Remember that this clown had to climb into his truck from the passenger door as traffic was too close and too heavy to get into from the drivers door.

It cannot be denied, argued or shouted down that this truck driver (according to all reports) made the stupidest choice he could of possibly made. If other trucks said pull over, pull over on the side of the road, not in the middle of the ******* motorway. **** I'm angry over this moron creating a situation in which mum's and dad's died. I couldn't give a **** if he's driven for 18 weeks, months or years, surely every*******one knows not to pull up in the middle of a motorway.

The driver had a mental cluster**** that cannot be excused, regardless of the wotif brigades best efforts.

In what time or space can anyone here justify stopping your vehicle in the middle of a major road let alone a motorway..... let alone in the middle of the road in a freaking tunnel???

Surely the truck would have to be dead, dragging a trailer or on fire before it would be a consideration.

[JC]

Originally Posted by GTP006

In my little mind space, I can't belive some of the posts here which are in effect clearing the truck driver of any wrong doing (yes JC, I know you are just saying he wasn't the final cause ) Common sense must prevail. Rubber, sparks or flames would not even come close to getting me to stop in the middle of a motorway. Remember that this clown had to climb into his truck from the passenger door as traffic was too close and too heavy to get into from the drivers door.

It cannot be denied, argued or shouted down that this truck driver (according to all reports) made the stupidest choice he could of possibly made. If other trucks said pull over, pull over on the side of the road, not in the middle of the ******* motorway. **** I'm angry over this moron creating a situation in which mum's and dad's died. I couldn't give a **** if he's driven for 18 weeks, months or years, surely every*******one knows not to pull up in the middle of a motorway.

The driver had a mental cluster**** that cannot be excused, regardless of the wotif brigades best efforts.

In what time or space can anyone here justify stopping your vehicle in the middle of a major road let alone a motorway..... let alone in the middle of the road in a freaking tunnel???

Surely the truck would have to be dead, dragging a trailer or on fire before it would be a consideration.

I can understand that pulling up in the middle of a motorway would be stupidity, but this particular truck driver made his way over to the left hand side of the road, and pulled over there. So I think he did what you think he should have done.

I also don't deny that pulling over in the tunnel and blocking the very left hand lane was not the brightest thing to have done, but given that there are rescue trucks normally dispatched to deal with these incidents quickly, it obviously happens often enough that the result of this one was just a freak catastrophe, caused by the following motorists.

If it was to be reasonably foreseen that this truck driver's actions would have caused this, then what stopped it happening on the other 1543 (or however many have stopped since it opened) occasions that someone broke down in the tunnel and blocked the left hand lane.

This is the bit I don't get - everyone is having a go at this driver for stopping in the tunnel, but by all reports, he is not the first to have done so - he is just the first where such a major incident happened 90 seconds after he stopped.

[Hitman]

Originally Posted by FLYXR6

The vehicle that stopped in the Tunnel is a K&S truck... They only run new tyres on there fleet trucks wether they are local or interstate. ..SNIP..

Not true.

I had a blowout on Wednesday night just gone, I think it happened around goulburn as that's where I heard someone talking about a red mudguard on the fogline over the UHF, it wasn't until I was just coming into Marulan that another driver called me over the UHF to let me know that there was a flat tyre on my 'B' trailer. It had completely disintegrated leaving only the sidewalls, the tread was completely gone as was the mudguard. The tyre was 2 weeks old and it was replaced with another re-cap.
I work for K&S, on interstate linehaul.

[GK351]

Originally Posted by GTP006

In what time or space can anyone here justify stopping your vehicle in the middle of a major road let alone a motorway..... let alone in the middle of the road in a freaking tunnel???

Surely the truck would have to be dead, dragging a trailer or on fire before it would be a consideration.

Put yourself if the truckies shoes,
if you seen sparks coming from a trailer that could be a number of things,
the truck driver stopped in the only place he could of at the time to inspect whatever was sparking. preventing a diasaster but it found him due to
unaware drivers.

If VIC roads pull your truck over becasue a chunk of radial flew throw a windscreen/window and killed someone, what would you be saying then?
(stupid truckie should of stopped?)
and i am sure vic roads promote you drieving your truck on a blown trailer tyre with sparks emmiting dragging along before you consider to stop. :
Blame the truck driver for not stopping to change tyre?
Drieving on blown tyres is against the law and dangerous.

yes it can be done has been many times, but what if the 2nd tyre blows at
100kph? my guess would be some sudden shift of movement that could possibly lead to a roll over.

If drivers in tunnels cannot read warning signs and judge traffic ahead
they shouldnt be on the road.

[Full Noise]

Originally Posted by GK5766

yes it can be done has been many times, but what if the 2nd tyre blows at
100kph? my guess would be some sudden shift of movement that could possibly lead to a roll over.

No offence, mate. That comment is absolute bull$hit. How long have you been driving trucks? I highly doubt that there would be a great deal of sparks coming of a blown tyre in this situation. So you’re going to have a cap hitting the button of a 40 ft container, big deal. This basic driver should never have stopped there, his truck was never in danger of catching fire of rolling over or any other thing that would have jeopardised any one’s safety except for some rubber on the bloody road.

This basic K&S driver shouldn’t have stopped there. The cars behind should have been looking into the distance and not tried to change lanes it the last second.

Simple as that.

[Gabbs]

Why are people blaming the truck here. He pulled over into the left to check what was going on and then someone went into the back of him.
Is it now the fault of the driver that was not looking ahead in the first place

[Full Noise]

Originally Posted by gabbs19

Why are people blaming the truck here. He pulled over into the left to check what was going on and then someone went into the back of him.
Is it now the fault of the driver that was not looking ahead in the first place

You just don’t get it, do you? He shouldn’t have stopped there just for a f***ng flat tyre.

Read this…

Originally Posted by GasOLane

He....should.... not.... have.... stopped.... there....to.... look....at....a....blown....tyre.

A....blowout....is.... not.... a.... major.... drama. (unless it's raining, then you get very wet!)

[GK351]

Other truckies got on the UHF and informed him of sparks emmiting from his unit.
thats what trigged him to stop.

Tunnel operators say *in case of fire stop your veichle immediatly and extinguish Fire*

Sparks are just sparks but can lead to a fire, i would of done the same thing!

and its funny how 1 min 30 seconds after the truck stopped stupid drivers still hadnt
relised that their was an incident ahead. with all the emergency signage.

sorry but thats totally NOT the truckies fault. he did the right thing.

[GXL078]

Originally Posted by schmidty

-October 24, 2001
Two trucks crash and cause a fireball hotter than 1000 degreesC in St Gotthard Rd Tunnel, Switzerland. 11 peopleare killed and 40 vehicles are fused together. The tunnel is closed for two months.

I have been through this tunnel. It is 17 KM long and only one lane in each direction. There was a big traffic jam where all the cars have to get from 3 lanes down into one and lots of (newish) cars were overheated beside the road.
Inside the tunel it is 80Km/h speed imit and there are marks on the road showing you how far to leave behing the car in front. 30m I think it is.
The tunnel they are building to replace it is 57Km long. I have a book about it teling how they have to allow for the movement of the Earth's plates in their calculations. Its due to open in 2012 or thereabouts, and will cut travelling times for trucks from Switzerland to Italy by a few hours.

[TwistedEL]

Originally Posted by Full Noise

You just don’t get it, do you? He shouldn’t have stopped there just for a f***ng flat tyre.

Read this…

The issue isn't if he needed or didn't need to stop. He did stop, and he did it safely. The fact is it didn't have to be a truck that was in the left lane of the road, it could just as easily have been a tyre, a cardboard box, a car that had broken down.

In any event, if the people behind had maintained a safe following distance and had been watching what was happening up the road this whole thing could have been avoided.

I also agree that the lack of an emergency stopping lane is a serious factor.

[kempster1]

Originally Posted by Hitman

Not true.

I had a blowout on Wednesday night just gone, I think it happened around goulburn as that's where I heard someone talking about a red mudguard on the fogline over the UHF, it wasn't until I was just coming into Marulan that another driver called me over the UHF to let me know that there was a flat tyre on my 'B' trailer. It had completely disintegrated leaving only the sidewalls, the tread was completely gone as was the mudguard. The tyre was 2 weeks old and it was replaced with another re-cap.
I work for K&S, on interstate linehaul.

Most interstate trucks in Australia run recaps on their trailers!!!

[mik]

Originally Posted by TwistedEL

The issue isn't if he needed or didn't need to stop. He did stop, and he did it safely. The fact is it didn't have to be a truck that was in the left lane of the road, it could just as easily have been a tyre, a cardboard box, a car that had broken down.

In any event, if the people behind had maintained a safe following distance and had been watching what was happening up the road this whole thing could have been avoided.

I also agree that the lack of an emergency stopping lane is a serious factor.

spot on TwistedEl and many will take a chance on pushing in to the moving lane because they know every body is close up behind every one else and they wont give you a go to get out, if we had an emergency stopping lane this thread would not be here in

[Keepleft]

Originally Posted by GK5766

Other truckies got on the UHF and informed him of sparks emmiting from his unit.
thats what trigged him to stop.

Tunnel operators say *in case of fire stop your veichle immediatly and extinguish Fire*

Sparks are just sparks but can lead to a fire, i would of done the same thing!

and its funny how 1 min 30 seconds after the truck stopped stupid drivers still hadnt
relised that their was an incident ahead. with all the emergency signage.

sorry but thats totally NOT the truckies fault. he did the right thing.

On prima facie evidence I agree, this will all come out in the coronial.

For Sydney tunnels we advise the same, move to the LEFT lane IF there is no left shoulder or bay AND hit the hazard warning lights. Naturally wear a vest if you have one, and if safe the triangle. Its in our RTA flyer and is uniform worlds best practice.

None of that takes away from the coments made to continue on if you can till the shoulder starts again.

[Falcon Coupe]

Not surprising when you travel on the Monash daily, the amount of cars that squeeze into you're braking zone and indicate after they cross the line if at all is staggering.
I know of a truck driver in the tunnel that had a corolla cut right in front causing him to brake, he blasted the horn so the corolla driver locked up his brakes to be smart.
The truck couldn't stop shunted him down the road doing a fair bit of damage, the corolla took off and didn't stop at tunnel end.

[ratter]

I think someone should inform the coroner that he should come here and read all the info from our experts :

[FLYXR6]

Originally Posted by Hitman

Not true.

I had a blowout on Wednesday night just gone, I think it happened around goulburn as that's where I heard someone talking about a red mudguard on the fogline over the UHF, it wasn't until I was just coming into Marulan that another driver called me over the UHF to let me know that there was a flat tyre on my 'B' trailer. It had completely disintegrated leaving only the sidewalls, the tread was completely gone as was the mudguard. The tyre was 2 weeks old and it was replaced with another re-cap.
I work for K&S, on interstate linehaul.

I was talking about the truck i didn't say anything about the trailer.

[iCat]

so what's the difference between stopping in the left hand lane in the tunnel, and stopping in the left hand lane of a major dual lane road?

[Charliewool]

Originally Posted by schmidty

Thats for them to fight out. I'll still be using it on monday. Transurban only care from an investment point of view and what its going to do for the share price.

Try Tuesday.. Maybe?
You know WHO should cop the REAL blame here?... Friggin Transurban!.. NO emergency lane (OR not letting it be used as one)! Plain & simple!
Heard on the grapevine that these tunnels were designated TWO lanes PLUS the 3rd for emergency.. BUT Transurban, in their wisdom, decided that a 3rd fully operational lane meant a THIRD more revenue!..

From the outset of this disaster, it has been Bracks, plus THAT Transurban female spindoctor, telling us all.. how bloody well their emergency procedures worked! .. Naturally, NO blame of the tunnel design or of no emergency lane!This entire debarcle reeks of them BOTH going into damage control to voice the praises of their beloved tunnels, rather than ADMITTING the REAL shortfall, that was a castrophope waiting to happen!

BTW... THAT Transurban "spindoctor" I mentioned.. (Jean Ker Walsh) just happens to have been the Labor party's first Media Director (under the Cain Government) from memory!!...
You watch, Transurban will come out smelling of roses over this!

[Keepleft]

Originally Posted by iCat

so what's the difference between stopping in the left hand lane in the tunnel, and stopping in the left hand lane of a major dual lane road?

Well, outside a tunnel you can get well clear of traffic and the stopped vehicle:-)

I accept your point though, and again, its what the road authorities say to do if the vehicle falters and is unable to continue; left, stop, hazards. (And ignition off to reduce risk of fire event).

If one can continue without creating an additional hazard (explosion, falling debris etc), Rule 221() allows then for an abnormally slow moving vehicle to flick its hazard warning lights on.

But, 40 seconds is enough to begin lane closure with the ARR required set of three triangles; farthest 1 - near 150m before the scene /2-mid/3-right side of a lane before the scene. Set close-in first then set about spreading them apart. But the regulation for a truck to carry them only applies if the truck bears a weight exceeding 12 tonnes GVM.

We have had similar crashes of this type, though a non tunnel event, one is the example recently in VIC (Monash?) where two women were incinerated; rem - they came to a stop behind a broken-down vehicle that had stopped in the middle-lane after failing. The ladies were then impacted by a truck and the scene was then engulfed in flames.

Many complained back then in this forum and others, that the broken-down initial car should have moved to the left lane, and i'd agree, but in real-life that is not always possible when you have at point of operation much traffic around you. It is also potentially reflective of a failure to keep left in the first instance, 'sometimes'. IT is also true, and quite clear folk do not adequately read the "what to do at a breakdown/crash scene" text that is in most driver handbooks. I admit the VIC handbook needs updating in this respect, it is behind the rest of Australia in that regard.

It is clear though, THAT IF you can continue do so, then stop in a safer place further on and off the roadway, if you cannot, then the left lane remains the safest spot, failing the existence of a break-down lane.

We really should insist tunnels be constructed with full-length shoulders, even if that adds 100 million dollars to the initial construction cost.