The "ve" Thread - Page 6

vztrt · 29-08-2006, 11:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SlickHolden

I'm not sure how much weight they could drop from it, Maybe get some lighter parts in the IRS it's said to be pretty heavy, Try cut some weight in the Boss and maybe the barra. The BA was a stiffer body then the AU so there was extra weight there also. Wonder is it possible to cut some of the overhangs off?.

Well they have a little time up their sleeve to work on this. The B series is a great car and showed what the Ford engineers can do. With the large car market struggling Ford know what they need to do. I reckon they will surprise us once again.

Full Spectrum · 29-08-2006, 11:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vztrt

Well they have a little time up their sleeve to work on this. The B series is a great car and showed what the Ford engineers can do. With the large car market struggling Ford know what they need to do. I reckon they will surprise us once again.

True at the time weight wasn't a issue because petrol was pretty much under $1.
I wonder if they had more then 1-2 years would they be confidant enough to build a slightly bigger vectra size car and use the territory for the larger family car??.

ltd · 30-08-2006, 12:09 AM

Good points slick, I think for them to drop the falcon would be suicide, as the market still wants it. Whilst the territory is nice it is dissimilar in many ways to the falcon, can you imagine an xr8 territory?
Aussies love big sedans and as such we have ford and holden. I should imagine for the next decade atleast that this will remain the case; unless of course these cars are killed by cheap imports from places like asia.
Ford will continue to tinker with fuel economy as it is the strategy that is paying huge dividends at the moment. If they can shave another litre or two off the falcon appetite over the next 2 years then they will have a serious competitive advantage over all their rivals, including holden. For this to play out though that would require Holden and toyota to sit still and do nothing - very unlikely.
All in all, peoples requirements for cars focussed on specific areas such as safety, performance etc. Now, one of the primary concerns is economy. This has only shifted into the spotlight in the last couple of years, and as such, companies like Holden have unfortunately been locked into a design that doesn't focus on this new trend. Ford now need to make hay whilst the sun shines before Holden do something drastic to improver their fuel economy.

XR8-260 · 30-08-2006, 04:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vztrt

But if Ford work on removing weight and make it lighter than the BA/BF models. Increase the efficiency of the motor better auto for the base model they might be able to play the fuel efficency card as this is a big factor at the moment.

Agreed on the weight issues! Also scrap the ancient 4 speeder in the 08' model. Develop a next generation alloy engine like what holden did with the 3.6L Alloytec... 200KW of power in the base model perhaps? Geez the EF GT had that much power!

merlin · 30-08-2006, 07:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 30487256

Agreed on the weight issues! Also scrap the ancient 4 speeder in the 08' model. Develop a next generation alloy engine like what holden did with the 3.6L Alloytec... 200KW of power in the base model perhaps? Geez the EF GT had that much power!

Why? The Falcon I6 craps all over the gutless alloytech.

XplosiveR6 · 30-08-2006, 08:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 30487256

Agreed on the weight issues! Also scrap the ancient 4 speeder in the 08' model. Develop a next generation alloy engine like what holden did with the 3.6L Alloytec... 200KW of power in the base model perhaps? Geez the EF GT had that much power!

Did you even read the article??
- The commodore is heavier
- the falcon has more punch due to having way more torque
- the falcon is lighter on petrol
- alloy has little weight benifits
- there is no such thing as an EF GT

now, how is the I6 worse then the alloycrap?

**russellw** · 30-08-2006, 08:40 AM

Should intensify the year long battle with the 300C a bit - that has been a close call thus far with only a handful of units between them up to the end of July.

It's the value equation that stacks up in this case - with a pretty sharp price reduction that puts the car below both rivals you'd be tipping that it will gain some of the local market share it lost back again.

Cheers
Russ

merlin · 30-08-2006, 08:51 AM

I've always wondered - what posesses old farts to buy LWB cars (assuming here that besides limo companies who else buys them but old farts.) You would think they don't need the space ect?

**Polyal** · 30-08-2006, 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by merlin

I've always wondered - what posesses old farts to buy LWB cars (assuming here that besides limo companies who else buys them but old farts.) You would think they don't need the space ect?

I reakon that trend is changing ALOT. The "old farts" IMO are getting into camry's and corrola's.

The type of people that buy LWB's are probably in the late 40's and 50's, have good jobs and want something flashy that wont cost them heaps to maintain, or intitially buy.

JD86 · 30-08-2006, 09:48 AM

wow close battle, ford is better on fuel, more torque, better transmission, i expected the famous ve to win more convincingly, well done ford

Iphido · 30-08-2006, 10:09 AM

I don't see that many really old people driving them. Polyal is right more late 40's-50's.. The really old ones are still driving morris, the younger ones are getting into something economical like corrollas.

My old man got one, it was forced onto him as a company car. Now he owns it (golden handshake). its a oldy and a V6.. Its a limo, and its huge. As a car to take a family from sydney to melbourne in its brillant. With three sons varying from 6'7 to 6'4, we can all squeeze in for the ~7hrs and blast down to vic. Or up to qld..

Farmers bought them for the same reason, they could travel into the big smoke with the whole clan in comfort.

It used to be that upper managers got Fairmonts, and directors got fairlanes.

I would definately concider buying a Statesman or Fairlane personally if they made them properly. They should be a Aussie 7 series or S class. Not a fatter ugly relative of a falcon/commodore.

I think the sexiest of the statesmans was the WH internationals. They are nice. Of the recent fairlanes it was the NL tickfords. The best ever was the LTD with hidden lights.

They should have real wood. I mean how bloody hard is it? Small bit of timber and mill it down. Cost $20. Not two colour swirl plastic. They should have all the wizzbang technology, like xenons. They should look classic and classy. They should feel tight and strong. You should feel like your in a private charter business class flight.

Should be interesting to see how they go against the 300c. Hopefully it gets Chrysler to bring the LWB versions over here.. A SRT lwb 300C might make it into a list of cars I would concider owning.

Hopefully that forces Holden to bring out the chinese LWB Statesman over here.

NAK302 · 30-08-2006, 10:14 AM

.......did they mention it cost $1 billion. ooh yeah i'm gunna get one 'cause they invested a billion. marketing strategy???

Full Spectrum · 30-08-2006, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ltd

Good points slick, I think for them to drop the falcon would be suicide, as the market still wants it. Whilst the territory is nice it is dissimilar in many ways to the falcon, can you imagine an xr8 territory?
Aussies love big sedans and as such we have ford and holden. I should imagine for the next decade atleast that this will remain the case; unless of course these cars are killed by cheap imports from places like asia.
Ford will continue to tinker with fuel economy as it is the strategy that is paying huge dividends at the moment. If they can shave another litre or two off the falcon appetite over the next 2 years then they will have a serious competitive advantage over all their rivals, including holden. For this to play out though that would require Holden and toyota to sit still and do nothing - very unlikely.
All in all, peoples requirements for cars focussed on specific areas such as safety, performance etc. Now, one of the primary concerns is economy. This has only shifted into the spotlight in the last couple of years, and as such, companies like Holden have unfortunately been locked into a design that doesn't focus on this new trend. Ford now need to make hay whilst the sun shines before Holden do something drastic to improver their fuel economy.

Falcon has to stay around no doubt, But maybe a slightly smaller one witch still offers the same or similar interior space but maybe a little smaller front and back, Then use that 60/40 split rear seat to it's advantage.
XR8 Territory

Might sell good i have already seen 4 Turbo Territory's was parked next to one yesterday.
Yeah the VE is locked in body for atleast the next 6 years maybe thats why holden is talking torana see if there is interest in that car along side the commodore, And all they have is engine and transmissions to cut back fuel economy the weight will stay around the same. The ve is flexible in engine sizes different transmissions but not making the car lighter and smaller. I was reading that holden was going to grab a decent diesel engine to try out, But on hybrids they will rely on GM. But they have smaller capacity engines to try but weight might counter act anything gained in fuel economy from a smaller engine.

Fordoldie · 30-08-2006, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ltd

All in all, peoples requirements for cars focussed on specific areas such as safety, performance etc. Now, one of the primary concerns is economy. This has only shifted into the spotlight in the last couple of years, and as such, companies like Holden have unfortunately been locked into a design that doesn't focus on this new trend. Ford now need to make hay whilst the sun shines before Holden do something drastic to improver their fuel economy.

Yeah maybe we will see some mid-sized six cylinder cars from both Aussie makers? Hope so

Holden already have their plans to reduce fuel economy in future VE models - direct injection being just one and contributing 8% savings alone. Also the likely hood of that happening before the new Falcon gets to market is relatively high given that is 2 years away?
Not sure what you mean they are locked into a design that doesnt focus on economy? Can you elaborate maybe I missed something, cheers

Dauphin · 30-08-2006, 01:32 PM

I reckon a more squared-off C-pillar shape and the car would look real neat.

blackahcdx · 30-08-2006, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GMH8TR

Nice actually, one day Fairlane & LTD might look good too.

thats if they live long enough

_

uranium_death · 30-08-2006, 04:31 PM

I wanna get myself a Fairlane long before I am in my 50s-120's.

The 2000 model is still my fave.

Did I mention that Bonds make the best underpants?

LUXO_8 · 30-08-2006, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by merlin

I've always wondered - what posesses old farts to buy LWB cars (assuming here that besides limo companies who else buys them but old farts.) You would think they don't need the space ect?

not only old farts buy LWB cars......... im only 25, and have had my fairlane since i was 22.

if i could afford a new car, it would be LWB......... 300c, fairlane/LTD or stato/caprice... i love them

Full Spectrum · 30-08-2006, 05:43 PM

As i said some time back when i spotted the caprice first look it's the SWB it doesn't look big, Then you see it side on it's a monster. Very nimble on it's feet for a big fella.
My brother seen one that came into his work the lady driving it was a holden interior designer, They got to look over it but take no pics. He likes it over the old model more. He said the boot size was massive he reckons he could lay long ways in it.

XR8-260 · 30-08-2006, 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XplosiveR6

Did you even read the article??
- The commodore is heavier
- the falcon has more punch due to having way more torque
- the falcon is lighter on petrol
- alloy has little weight benifits
- there is no such thing as an EF GT

now, how is the I6 worse then the alloycrap?

Yes i did... I know its like 4kg lighter but 1700kg so what? It is still a helluva lot. For the 08' model it would be nice for ford to adopt some of BMW's technologies such as extensive aluminium use to get the weight down to about AU falcon levels. However, I do understand this is probably not possible as the falc is only a 35K car and not some 100K BMW... Also the engine is ancient although it has been extensively re-worked. Why not develop a newer and lighter engine for the 08 release. This would reduce weight, increase power and efficiency. No EF GT? Well EL then... so what they were practically the same any way... don't be so touchy lol.

XR8-260 · 30-08-2006, 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XplosiveR6

Did you even read the article??
- The commodore is heavier
- the falcon has more punch due to having way more torque
- the falcon is lighter on petrol
- alloy has little weight benifits
- there is no such thing as an EF GT

now, how is the I6 worse then the alloycrap?

Btw I never said the I6 was worse than the alloy'crap'. I was merely saying that ford should introduce a new engine (if they aren't already) for the 08 Falcon Like Holden did with the Alloytec . U must really hate holdens...

Pinkbits · 30-08-2006, 07:36 PM

2.40 pm this afternoon outside Holden head office in Salmon st Port Melbourne.
One new statesman and one new ss, both similar in colour to "mercury silver". Bonnet up on the statesman and what looked like jumper leads in the engine bay and 3 or 4 anxious looking gents moving around the car. Damn i wish i could of stopped, the photo with the building in the background would of been a classic!!!

Steve · 30-08-2006, 08:21 PM

Has anyone read the latest copy of Aus Muscle Car Magazine? They did a write up on the VE and they really do pay out on it and Holden. I can't see them getting an invite to test any more Holden products.

Full Spectrum · 31-08-2006, 12:09 AM

Maybe to many people playing inside the car and needed to jump start it.
I was down at a holden dealers last Saturday in a SV6. Went down to price some brakes yesterday had a wonder over to the same car to have a play with the audio setup and the battery was dead and the fogs wouldn't come on when it had life still.
Does anyone know if holden is using there fog lights like ford do and call them cornering lamps now??.

Bud Bud · 31-08-2006, 10:04 AM

I can sense a bit of negativity around the new Statesman here. WHY? While the new Statesman is not for everyone (me included) Holden have done very well to keep large cars on the radar in Australia and Australians can now consider themselves lucky that they can still dip into this market if they wish. After all this car will actually serve as GMs flagship in the growing and very lucrative Chinese market, not Australia.

Ford Aus need to take note as they cannot just simply build large cars for Australians and remain profitable to continue this trend.

Ford Aus has all but killed off their LWB versions and will now probably miss the mark in this new and huge economy. If this market becomes as big as they predict (and demand is growing daily) then the Chinese will probably get some sort of Ugly Crown Victoria version from Canada instead.

Ford Aus have them selves to blame for the demise of their Fairlane range after inventing the concept in the 60's from American rear quarters and good old Aussie engineering which truly made Holden stand up and listen at that time. Remember Holden's half arsed effort or should I say extended arsed effort the Brougham?

When the HQ was born, Holden released a formidable opponent which allowed Holden to brand the Statesman tag so successfully that not only allowed Holden to “kill it off” and then bring it back when it suited them, but to also be able keep the tag every bit as relevant today as it was during the HQ days. Not even the famous and successful "Kingswood" tag managed to survive this!

But the icing on the cake came during the 80's (not a good time in the auto industry and mistakes were made by everyone). After Holden stopped building the ugliest Statesman of all, the WB, Ford again found it had the whole market to itself. They could have delivered the killer blow then, but with no V8 option, this car also became a lame duck and really this heavy car powered by a six could not be to taken too seriously.

Long time Ford owners actually left Ford during this period to buy V8 Commodores so that they could perform every day duties like towing boats and caravans.(Today this short fall would probably been taken up by cheaper 4wd's instead). At least this did have the effect of Ford Aus bringing back the V8.

I fear that once again the conservative nature at Ford Aus will take over and they will not be in a position to offer a LWB car to compete in China or even India as they also begin to grow, leaving some people here to complain about the success that Holden will have in China and the Middle East. It does not have to be this way.

Sorry about the long read. Once I started it just came out.

Fordoldie · 31-08-2006, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bud Bud

I can sense a bit of negativity around the new Statesman here. WHY? While the new Statesman is not for everyone (me included) Holden have done very well to keep large cars on the radar in Australia and Australians can now consider themselves lucky that they can still dip into this market if they wish. After all this car will actually serve as GMs flagship in the growing and very lucrative Chinese market, not Australia......................................... .................................................. ..I fear that once again the conservative nature at Ford Aus will take over and they will not be in a position to offer a LWB car to compete in China or even India as they also begin to grow, leaving some people here to complain about the success that Holden will have in China and the Middle East. It does not have to be this way.

Sorry about the long read. Once I started it just came out.

From all other accounts (outside this forum) the new Statesman appears to be very popular with all those that see it. I havent seen any of the new models as they dont arrive here until next week but I cant wait. If Ford Aus are not replacing the Fairlane they certainly wont be looking at any other market. The main reason they are not replacing it is numbers selling. That, and the fact Orion is not a home grown vehicle perhaps? Meaning they would have to also develop the Ford LWB offshore? Someone here know?

Bud Bud · 31-08-2006, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fordoldie

If Ford Aus are not replacing the Fairlane they certainly wont be looking at any other market. The main reason they are not replacing it is numbers selling. That, and the fact Orion is not a home grown vehicle perhaps?

That is the very problem as I see it. Holden have not developed the VE LWB for just Aus only. They recognised along time ago that the emerging market would be China and later India. That is the real reason that the ZETA platform was created (and the one billion dollars was spent). Ford Aus need to look closely at this model, and not through blue eyes only!

zlcrazy · 31-08-2006, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by uranium_death

The front lights looks Toyota-inspired to me.

The rear is ok. But not great.

The body itself looks very good though. It looks better on the Statesman range than the Commodore range I reckon.

I still reckon the 2000'ish Fairlanes looked the best (The AU ones). The BA Fairlanes looked ****house at the back. Looked plain.
(_\__________/_)

Mate that comment sounds like what i always say to everyone. I own a 2000 AU Fairlane V8 (Congo Green) and they are just simply magnificent cars. The BA Fairlanes tend to look like the Falcon in to many ways (Tail lights, Headlights etc) while the AU looks completely different. I also have a 2000 AU2 Falcon Forte - side by side they look completely different.

blackahcdx · 31-08-2006, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bud Bud

That is the very problem as I see it. Holden have not developed the VE LWB for just Aus only. They recognised along time ago that the emerging market would be China and later India. That is the real reason that the ZETA platform was created (and the one billion dollars was spent). Ford Aus need to look closely at this model, and not through blue eyes only!

You're forgettting The Middle East. The UAE alone is a much much bigger customer than China or India.

Bud Bud · 31-08-2006, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackahcdx

You're forgettting The Middle East. The UAE alone is a much much bigger customer than China or India.

Mate they (Holden) are already there. We have all seen the crazy Arab vids of said Arabs using their V8 Buicks (Commodores) as door slammers or drifters on their daily roads, weaving in and out amongst the daily traffic!

I am talking about the new "world super sized economies" that are emerging from the middle ages of peasantry (Australia will benefit incredibly by this through the resource boom over the next 25 years or so).

With a population of about 5 million people that make up the UAE, 20 million people (latest sensus not with standing) in Australia, 25 million in Saudi Arabia, 300 million in America and 1 billion in China and another billion in India, you begin to appreciate the economies of scale here. Holden through GM or should I say GM through Holden will begin to brand their latest offerings right at the beginning of China's growth cycle, and then they will be in the best position to continue to grow the brand as the economy grows with it.