First Drive: Falcon Ecoboost - Page 6

prydey · 07-12-2011, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phillyc

The Benz E250 now runs a 1.8L turbo 4.

just to further this point, low capacity 4cyl turbo engines in large cars isn't a new thing and is the way many manufacturers are going. Ford is doing the right thing and its the 'stuck in the past' australian public that need to get with the times.

even F1's will eventually run a 4cyl turbo. it was proposed for 2014 but there was a bit of a revolt so they have now backpedalled and gone to a V6, but a 4cyl will happen.

its the future, like it or not. many manufacturers have shown that there is no compromise. high tech engines coupled with high tech transmissions and applicable gearing and most of these cars are quicker and more efficient than the larger engines of only a few years ago.

having said all that, one major difference between aussie and euro is the building materials. euro's are all lightweight aluminium and large cars are a good few 100kg lighter.

2011G6E · 07-12-2011, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stazza_Brendan

People talking about throwing a tune at it could be disappointed.
Runs different ecu to normal falcon. Meaning someone has to crack it, develop software, distribute it.

I give them a month. There's a simply massive industry in cracking and retuning ECU's. All it takes is even a little demand.

As for confusion over the G6 and G6E name tags being retained on a four cylinder, then there's an easy way to fix that...
Get rid of the stupid and meaningless "G" name tags and go back to names with real meaning and instant recognisability by the general public, even those without much of an interest in cars: "Fairmont" and "Fairmont Ghia"...doesn't matter what cylinder count it has then. after 9 months of ownership I still find myself now and then having to actually explain to someone what exactly it is that we drive..."It's a Ford G6E...that's a Falcon, but an upmarket one, like the old Fairmont used to be, with better spec...", and so on, when a simple "I drive a Fairmont Ghia" (and to be brutally honest, I sometimes do to keep things simple...) would clear it all up immediately.

prydey · 07-12-2011, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

As for confusion over the G6 and G6E name tags being retained on a four cylinder, then there's an easy way to fix that...
Get rid of the stupid and meaningless "G" name tags and go back to names with real meaning and instant recognisability by the general public, even those without much of an interest in cars: "Fairmont" and "Fairmont Ghia"...doesn't matter what cylinder count it has then. after 9 months of ownership I still find myself now and then having to actually explain to someone what exactly it is that we drive..."It's a Ford G6E...that's a Falcon, but an upmarket one, like the old Fairmont used to be, with better spec...", and so on, when a simple "I drive a Fairmont Ghia" (and to be brutally honest, I sometimes do to keep things simple...) would clear it all up immediately.

not this chestnut again.

i guess hyundai should go back to excel, accent, sonata etc etc.

i think you'll find that ford are more than happy with the effect changing the names has had on sales. the cars have lost their 'grandpa' image.

Paxton · 07-12-2011, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prydey

not this chestnut again.

i guess hyundai should go back to excel, accent, sonata etc etc.

i think you'll find that ford are more than happy with the effect changing the names has had on sales. the cars have lost their 'grandpa' image.

Correct. The same strategy worked wonders for Mazda as well.

flappist · 07-12-2011, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

I give them a month. There's a simply massive industry in cracking and retuning ECU's. All it takes is even a little demand.

As for confusion over the G6 and G6E name tags being retained on a four cylinder, then there's an easy way to fix that...
Get rid of the stupid and meaningless "G" name tags and go back to names with real meaning and instant recognisability by the general public, even those without much of an interest in cars: "Fairmont" and "Fairmont Ghia"...doesn't matter what cylinder count it has then. after 9 months of ownership I still find myself now and then having to actually explain to someone what exactly it is that we drive..."It's a Ford G6E...that's a Falcon, but an upmarket one, like the old Fairmont used to be, with better spec...", and so on, when a simple "I drive a Fairmont Ghia" (and to be brutally honest, I sometimes do to keep things simple...) would clear it all up immediately.

Two points.
1) It took two years for the B series ECU to be cracked and even then it took another six before ZFs could be manipulated. If the yanks don't have the same stuff as us it will be a much harder task. In addition to that the prime market for the T4 is saving money on rego and petrol etc. ECU updates cost money, the thing they are trying not to spend.

2) When asked what sort of car they drive:

50% will say a "blue one" or what ever colour it is.
10% will say a toyota or holden even if it is a mazda or a lamborghini
10% will know what brand it is but not the model
10% will know the make and model but no idea what engine or topology or even care.
10% will know all about their car but just bought it because they liked it at the time.
9.99999999% will know all about their car and bought it for complex emotional reasons.
0.00000001% will know all about their car and tell you over and over again but also whinge constatly about how it has the wrong name, the engineers who designed it got it wrong, the marketers have no idea and if they were in charge everyone in the world would have already bought their car. Fortunately the other 99.99999999% don't care and just get on with their lives.....

Smoke Pursuit · 07-12-2011, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

I give them a month. There's a simply massive industry in cracking and retuning ECU's. All it takes is even a little demand.

As for confusion over the G6 and G6E name tags being retained on a four cylinder, then there's an easy way to fix that...
Get rid of the stupid and meaningless "G" name tags and go back to names with real meaning and instant recognisability by the general public, even those without much of an interest in cars: "Fairmont" and "Fairmont Ghia"...doesn't matter what cylinder count it has then. after 9 months of ownership I still find myself now and then having to actually explain to someone what exactly it is that we drive..."It's a Ford G6E...that's a Falcon, but an upmarket one, like the old Fairmont used to be, with better spec...", and so on, when a simple "I drive a Fairmont Ghia" (and to be brutally honest, I sometimes do to keep things simple...) would clear it all up immediately.

You should be cheering they got rid of Fairmont / Fairmont Ghia... Those cars had a very bad reputation for being old man cars, and had the resale to prove it.

G6E's are holding their value MUCH better.... A 3year old G6E ex fleet hack is still worth mid 20's in comparison a 3 year old Fairmont of the day same age same kms would be worth mid 10's....

Most people know what a G6E is now....

prydey · 07-12-2011, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flappist

2) When asked what sort of car they drive:

50% will say a "blue one" or what ever colour it is.
10% will say a toyota or holden even if it is a mazda or a lamborghini
10% will know what brand it is but not the model
10% will know the make and model but no idea what engine or topology or even care.
10% will know all about their car but just bought it because they liked it at the time.
9.99999999% will know all about their car and bought it for complex emotional reasons.
0.00000001% will know all about their car and tell you over and over again but also whinge constatly about how it has the wrong name, the engineers who designed it got it wrong, the marketers have no idea and if they were in charge everyone in the world would have already bought their car. Fortunately the other 99.99999999% don't care and just get on with their lives.....

finger on the pulse, you have

dimka100 · 07-12-2011, 04:21 PM

It will be extremely unlikely for any USA or Australian based tuning companies to even bother spending the funds on trying to crack this ECU … the most likely place it will be done is in EU for the Focus ST … however there is no guarantee the Focus ST ECU will be identical to the one used locally hence the potential for it to happen is still low …

People who want to tune cars will just keep buying the XR6Ts … after all such people want an engine that’s easy to tune, has a very high potential, and will survive after its been heavily modified … with the EcoBoost I just don’t this these points will be true as it was built for economy and not stupid power handling, its turbo is built for efficiency/response and not very high boost applications, its ECU will most likely be very complicated, and ultimately even after lost of dollars and tuned invested will unlikely to produce more power than a stock I6T or one that has a simply tune done … just makes no sense really.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

I give them a month. There's a simply massive industry in cracking and retuning ECU's. All it takes is even a little demand.

jpd80 · 07-12-2011, 05:25 PM

Jeez, the car hasn't landed and already we're getting people wanting aftermarket tuning...

One thing's for sure, the SIDI 3.0 is now no longer good enough so will Holden have to go for
something like a diesel or a DI I-4 turbo to match the Falcon Ecoboost, or will they just
stick tho their rudimentary dedicated LPG for fleet sales?

Bossxr8 · 07-12-2011, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nikked

So, where are all the people who laughed at a 4cyl falcon, saying it was no better then a gutless starfire?

Either getting back into their caves, or over on LS1. Actually now I think about it, they would be logging onto LS1 while in their caves.

The early comparisons to the Missfire Commode were truely laughable, that engine was a gutless joke.

Paxton · 07-12-2011, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

The early comparisons to the Missfire Commode were truely laughable, that engine was a gutless joke.

Holden made a big mistake with the Starfire. All they had to do was slot a Family II 2 Litre engine into a Commodore, and it would have turned out better. Just imagine what a Barra 195 would be like with two cylinders chopped off, and no balance shafts.

jpd80 · 07-12-2011, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

The early comparisons to the Missfire Commode were truely laughable, that engine was a gutless joke.

Not meaning to jinx the launch but i have a strong feeling that when EB Falcon arrives,
the term "Gutless Joke" will be lavished upon the 3.0 SIDI Commodore.......

Bring on another Bathurst challenge and let's see what happens..

Bossxr8 · 07-12-2011, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paxton

Holden made a big mistake with the Starfire. All they had to do was slot a Family II 2 Litre engine into a Commodore, and it would have turned out better. Just imagine what a Barra 195 would be like with two cylinders chopped off, and no balance shafts.

It would probably still make more torque than the 3 litre Sisi.

jpd80 · 07-12-2011, 07:54 PM

How about using the LPG's 12:1 compression set up and unique 95 RON tune for XR6?

Something to make it different to G and XT...

Road_Warrior · 07-12-2011, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paxton

Holden made a big mistake with the Starfire. All they had to do was slot a Family II 2 Litre engine into a Commodore, and it would have turned out better.

That's what the Curse (Cruze) is for, it sounds just like a Camira anyway.

phillyc · 07-12-2011, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpd80

Not meaning to jinx the launch but i have a strong feeling that when EB Falcon arrives, the term "Gutless Joke" will be lavished upon the 3.0 SIDI Commodore.......

Bring on another Bathurst challenge and let's see what happens..

Yep, i'd love to see that one too! The 4.0L Orion FG Falcon more economical than 3.0L SIDI VE Commodore. By a fair margin too. From memory the FG used less than it's stickered amount, and the Commodore used about 13% more than it's sticker.

grandpa_spec_F6 · 07-12-2011, 09:41 PM

Personally I can't wait to see what a tune will do to these motors. With just a tune and air filter other boosted cars can put out VERY respective numbers i.e. I4T, Coyote etc.

Sure you can buy a stock XR6T that'll make it look like a matchbox car in comparison but some people don't want the fuel consumption and extra cost associated with a 6cyl car.

After consistently using around 20L/100kms for the last year, I couldn't give two farts about fuel economy

Poetic Justice · 07-12-2011, 09:46 PM

I suppose if you were making a good 180-200rwkw out of one with good fuel consumption it could be ok?

SpoolMan · 07-12-2011, 10:04 PM

Common guys steady the thread, Falcon Ecoboost is the discussion.

After market tuning, Hoden new and old etc, can be discussed in there own appropriate threads..

Falc'man · 07-12-2011, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phillyc

I agree with much of what you have said. Bear in mind though, the BA XR6 Turbo had 'only' 450Nm.

As for modability. The low inertia K03 turbo is what is fitted to the 2.0L EcoBoost motor. Here is a compressor flow map for the K03-275. Similar results may be expected.

http://www.full-race.com/store/turbo...075-turbo.html

The map suggests about 26lbs/min of airflow at a pressure ratio of 2.0:1 ie 14.7psi boost. This equals about 260hp at an Air Fuel Ratio of 12:1, but since this is a DI motor, it may get away with being leaner than that. So, 13.2:1 (10% less fuel) and perhaps 286hp (214kW) is achievable.

It retains good efficiency up to a PR of 2.4:1 or about 20psi of boost at about 20lb/mins of air. At that boost level it would / should be 450Nm. At 286hp/214kW max flow, the max rpm for that torque could be held to would be 4500rpm. After that power would remain steady and torque proportionally drop as rpm rise to be 340Nm at 6000rpm. Typical of a small turbo, boosting early and falling over at the top. But, very good for daily driving!

I think a $1500 tune, would provide far better bang then $1500 on the NA6 through catback and tune. But you'd be starting from a higher base with the NA 4.0. Compared to an XR6T. Neither are in with a shot! They are the champs

It's rare posts like this that make me miss the rep system.

jpd80 · 07-12-2011, 11:05 PM

Keep in mind that we are still working with GEN 1 Ecoboost and that there is a lot left in this engine's development.
At the moment, a good 2.0 Diesel is putting out around 350-360 nm so Ecoboost is on the money but then
goes on to make around 40Kw more than the diesel with a lot more usable rev range. It sounds like a fun engine...

Grobbo · 08-12-2011, 12:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Falc'man

It's rare posts like this that make me miss the rep system.

Yes it was very impressive wasn't it.

Only just learned today that BMW, BMW of all people, have dropped the N/A 6 cylinder motor completely from the 3 series. Turbo 4's for everything aside from 335's (turbo 6) and M3's (maybe TTV6?)

It is on topic it is on topic! Here is a company with a massive reputation for pearler N/A sixes and it's gone for turbo 4's in the name of economy...

Rumour has it Porsche may even stop making N/A motors soon - yee gawds!

Lap up those XR6's whilst you still can - they may be the last new N/A straight sixes on the planet soon! (Or are they already?)

JPFS1 · 08-12-2011, 12:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prydey

just to further this point, low capacity 4cyl turbo engines in large cars isn't a new thing and is the way many manufacturers are going. Ford is doing the right thing and its the 'stuck in the past' australian public that need to get with the times.

even F1's will eventually run a 4cyl turbo. it was proposed for 2014 but there was a bit of a revolt so they have now backpedalled and gone to a V6, but a 4cyl will happen.

its the future, like it or not. many manufacturers have shown that there is no compromise. high tech engines coupled with high tech transmissions and applicable gearing and most of these cars are quicker and more efficient than the larger engines of only a few years ago.

having said all that, one major difference between aussie and euro is the building materials. euro's are all lightweight aluminium and large cars are a good few 100kg lighter.

After having some time in the new E250 just the other day, I have no issue with the whole downsizing of engines and replacing with hitachi drivelines to achieve equal performance but better fuel economy.

This I'm hoping will kick some serious goals for ford! Their effort, the investment and all the hard work to offer the consumer so many innovative options should be rewarded!

JPFS1 · 08-12-2011, 12:25 AM

Excuse the damn hitachi glitch, blame the iPhone!

barra240t · 08-12-2011, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DASH GT

You should be cheering they got rid of Fairmont / Fairmont Ghia... Those cars had a very bad reputation for being old man cars, and had the resale to prove it.

G6E's are holding their value MUCH better.... A 3year old G6E ex fleet hack is still worth mid 20's in comparison a 3 year old Fairmont of the day same age same kms would be worth mid 10's....

Most people know what a G6E is now....

I was thinking about this a few days back and wouldn't be surprised if Ford change G6E into Titanium at some stage, it seems all our high serie stuff is getting this nameplate now. One Ford, etc.

Grobbo · 08-12-2011, 12:19 PM

I wonder if in addition to Ecoboost, they'll slot the Terry's diesel into the Falcon one day...

Not a ridiculously stupid idea if development costs can be kept down.

Geez a new XR8 seems a world away with all this eco stuff going on doesn't it...

prydey · 08-12-2011, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grobbo

Geez a new XR8 seems a world away with all this eco stuff going on doesn't it...

there will never be a xr8 while the GS looks like it does. its an xr8 with brembos.

Grobbo · 08-12-2011, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prydey

there will never be a xr8 while the GS looks like it does. its an xr8 with brembos.

Spoolman will tell us off in a minute, but I think you'll find Niguno Brembos hermano...

99AUXR · 08-12-2011, 05:32 PM

hmmm I know many people will find it hard to go to I4, Are they still going to call it an XR6?

BHDOGS · 08-12-2011, 05:44 PM

I think the ecoboost is great u can already pic up fpv gts and typhoons for under 20 grand this will push there resale down further