which car/model changed the face of performance for aussie cars?

[LightningStrike]

OK, I'll bite.

BA XR6T. Introduced a whole new generation to Ford - no disrespect to the AU, but the BA XR6T made many people reconsider Ford as a value for money tunable performance car. That, and it really was more Australian made than much of the other stuff. Thanks again Geoff.

Another game changer?

Go back to the early 90's
Anyone here remember the 1992 CC Lancer GSR?
More subtle than the WRX, here before Subaru thought of the WRX - (and no one bought an Audi Quattro or Lancia Integrale out here for $33k brand new out the door so don't go there) - and in white or grey no one looked twice. AWD, ABS But great value, and nothing Holden or Ford did at the time worried it in a straight line, and nothing HSV did worried it in corners either!
It prompted Subaru to bring us the WRX in 94 (production started late 92) and if it hadn't been for the Lancer GSR we may not have got the WRX. Epic car back in the day, a real game changer.

[Cabbage]

Ok a bit left field, I'm gunn a say the Nissan gts/gtr "Godzilla". This car dominated Australian touring car Championship in the late 80 and early 90's and all but killed off the old group c (was it group c?). Out of that came the very successful Australian supercars championship and a focus on the ford vs holden rear wheel drive v8's. I think the move to a ford v Holden v8 category laid the foundation for the excellent performance vehicles we have from ford, fpv, Holden and hsv today. Although it has it negatives v8 super cars has helped foster what we have today. Prior to v8 supercars look where things were heading, ford drops v8 for xf model, ford teams have to bring in turbo Sierra to compete, Holden uses Nissan engine in the commodore (with not bad results), v8 culture was endangered. Godzilla comes along, changes the touring car scene and out of the ashes a renewed vigor for Australian built v8 sedans is reborn. Thank you Godzilla!!

[Cabbage]

Just to add, when the Nissan first appeared in aust touring car racing it was devastating, it was an awesome car that was almostin a different league. But what it did do was turn the aust public against it. Have you ever seen a more unpopular win than in 92? when Jim told the crowd they were all a pack of aholes.

[Ford_The_Win]

Originally Posted by flappist

Actually it was the first electronic fuel injected Falcon and that is the technology that has allowed the huge power and torque capabilities of the current era.....

I thought the XE was the first to offer fuel injection?

[smoo]

Originally Posted by Cabbage

Ok a bit left field, I'm gunn a say the Nissan gts/gtr "Godzilla". This car dominated Australian touring car Championship in the late 80 and early 90's and all but killed off the old group c (was it group c?).

Group A, and despite what jappa fan boys parrot the GTR DID NOT kill off Group A. Group A racing was rounding up world wide due to financial costs with each region going to their own formula. This co incided with GTRs success.
And what Aussie cars followed after the GTR... ED XR6, 215kw VR GTS?! Nothing interesting, and nothing that could mix it on the global stage..

[Cabbage]

Yeah sorry group a. Smoo you are probably right about the reasons for group a's demise, but my memory now was that the Nissan was killing the local cars an there was a push to create a category that gave the aus fans what they wanted ie Holden and ford v8s. My point is not that the models immediately after were any good but v8 super cars laid the groundwork for nearly 20 years of some excellent performance cars coming out of ford and Holden. Look at the options we have now gt gs xr f6 territory turbo (rip) and ss ssv clubsport gts etc. May be a bit off topic.

[Donny]

Originally Posted by flappist

Actually it was the first electronic fuel injected Falcon and that is the technology that has allowed the huge power and torque capabilities of the current era.....

Sorry Flappist, but the XE Falcon was the first to get full multi point fuel injection.. That was their answer to dropping the V8 back in 82.

[WMD351]

Originally Posted by Donny

Sorry Flappist, but the XE Falcon was the first to get full multi point fuel injection.. That was their answer to dropping the V8 back in 82.

Ah yes, the good old "There IS a substitute for cubic inch's" line.

[gtxb67]

Originally Posted by Donny

Sorry Flappist, but the XE Falcon was the first to get full multi point fuel injection.. That was their answer to dropping the V8 back in 82.

true - the efi started out on the xe, but (and this is a question, not a statement), did they make any changes to the xf's engine. the reason i ask is that from memory, the xf seemed to be the start of the 6's with torque. i remember reading a comparison with the xf s pak versus the commodore ss?? and while the commodore was much quicker, the xf was given compliments for the fact it had a lot of tourque. i was under the impression they started working harder on the six for the xf range for the obvious reason that there was no 8 in the xf range

[RAPID_BA]

I think after the ea falcon no aussie big car car felt compromised on performance. Everything after that went pretty well. 4.0 from eb2 was strong as well as the holden motors.

I still think there was a little "let's play lowest common denominator" untill ls1 arrived. It was like there was calm water and unprovoked holden with the ls1 did a belly flop in the water

[SteveJH]

Originally Posted by HULK_BA

I think after the ea falcon no aussie big car car felt compromised on performance. Everything after that went pretty well. 4.0 from eb2 was strong as well as the holden motors.

I still think there was a little "let's play lowest common denominator" untill ls1 arrived. It was like there was calm water and unprovoked holden with the ls1 did a belly flop in the water

Was the LS1 GM's base model V8 overseas? If so, it wasn't really a deliberate escalation, just the next step of GM V8 evolution.

[fmc351]

Originally Posted by HULK_BA

How is the xf falcon a game changer? Introduction of unleaded and cat converters? That carby 4.1 litre and no v8s?

Yeah, you might want to do more than read the post itself, and instead put it in perceptive of the post he answered.

Seems to me he is saying there really was no game changer, thus you could say the XF as much as any other car. He deliberately chose the XF as its probably the least game changing as it had no variant in a V8 and most bland car, to signify how pointless the argument is. Its just evolution.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by Donny

Sorry Flappist, but the XE Falcon was the first to get full multi point fuel injection.. That was their answer to dropping the V8 back in 82.

Oops.....I thought my XF was the first, oh well.....

[RAPID_BA]

Originally Posted by fmc351

Yeah, you might want to do more than read the post itself, and instead put it in perceptive of the post he answered.

Seems to me he is saying there really was no game changer, thus you could say the XF as much as any other car. He deliberately chose the XF as its probably the least game changing as it had no variant in a V8 and most bland car, to signify how pointless the argument is. Its just evolution.

So without the ls1, would we still have the i6t, boss 5.4s and fpv would have gone to the trouble all by itself to strap up a supercharger?

During the xf days and even with the first windsor v8s performance in aussie cars pretty much didnt move. fords v8 went from 1982 with a whopping 150kw 351 5.8 to 165kw in 1998. 15kw in 16yrs.

Then we go from 185kw in 99 (when ls1 introduced) to 290kw in 4 years.

[SteveJH]

That change in the late 1990's/early 2000's wasnt just in Australia though, that was just about world wide.

Check out the mainstream V6's and V8's in Europe, Asia and the US over the same time period.

This list may help: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ward's_10_Best_Engines

[AMGC63]

Originally Posted by HULK_BA

So without the ls1, would we still have the i6t, boss 5.4s and fpv would have gone to the trouble all by itself to strap up a supercharger?

During the xf days and even with the first windsor v8s performance in aussie cars pretty much didnt move. fords v8 went from 1982 with a whopping 150kw 351 5.8 to 165kw in 1998. 15kw in 16yrs.

Then we go from 185kw in 99 (when ls1 introduced) to 290kw in 4 years.

Are you suggesting Chevrolet would have stopped making V8's all together? The LS1 is just the evolution of all other V8 Chevs before it, there is nothing revolutionary about it whatso ever.

[galaxy xr8]

You could look at it this way also,
Holden introduced the LS1 why ?, because the previous 5ltr was at it's limit aswell and the only way to improve was to stroke it like they did with the VR GTS 5.7L.
Ford went down a similar path with the windsor, the 5ltr was at it's limit's and hence come the 5.6 stroker, although we do not know the full story, as Ford/FPV wern't in a posistion to introduce a new motor as of yet at the time frame, it could have been many of reason's, R&D, cost restraints, many different reason's could be to blame.
That doesn't mean that a new engine wasn't on the book's well before.
Ford also wasn't in the number's game back then I believe, they wern't to concerned with the Holden having a slight advantage in the "badging" stakes, if you want to look at badging, go back before the LS1 and look at the ELXR6, slightly lower then both the XR8 and SS, but it's only a number isn't it.

[burnz]

Originally Posted by galaxy xr8

You could look at it this way also,
Holden introduced the LS1 why ?, because the previous 5ltr was at it's limit aswell and the only way to improve was to stroke it like they did with the VR GTS 5.7L.
Ford went down a similar path with the windsor, the 5ltr was at it's limit's and hence come the 5.6 stroker, although we do not know the full story, as Ford/FPV wern't in a posistion to introduce a new motor as of yet at the time frame, it could have been many of reason's, R&D, cost restraints, many different reason's could be to blame.
That doesn't mean that a new engine wasn't on the book's well before.
Ford also wasn't in the number's game back then I believe, they wern't to concerned with the Holden having a slight advantage in the "badging" stakes, if you want to look at badging, go back before the LS1 and look at the ELXR6, slightly lower then both the XR8 and SS, but it's only a number isn't it.

i was of the opinion the 5.0 would not pass emission test, so holden sourced from GM's parts bin..

[galaxy xr8]

Originally Posted by burnz

i was of the opinion the 5.0 would not pass emission test, so holden sourced from GM's parts bin..

That could have been a factor aswell, for Both companies.

[CAMS290]

In 1962 the Chrysler Valiant R series had 145hp with the mighty 225 slant 6, Holden and Ford had no where near that, they didnt even have 100 hp.

In 1965 the AP6 Valiant was available with a 273 V8 punching out 180hp, a full year before the XR GT.

Chrysler (Valiant) were a game changer in Australia in the 1960's and early 1970's.

[fmc351]

Originally Posted by HULK_BA

So without the ls1, would we still have the i6t, boss 5.4s and fpv would have gone to the trouble all by itself to strap up a supercharger?

During the xf days and even with the first windsor v8s performance in aussie cars pretty much didnt move. fords v8 went from 1982 with a whopping 150kw 351 5.8 to 165kw in 1998. 15kw in 16yrs.

Then we go from 185kw in 99 (when ls1 introduced) to 290kw in 4 years.

Using your argument, without the XRGT would you even have the LS1 to obsess over?

Youre missing the point, the LS1 is just one motor that came along at a time and did what it did, even if Ford wasnt doing anything along that line at that time. However, the XRGT put an 8 in an Aussie built car while Holden did not, they used 6's. Whatever Ford was making when Holden ran the LS1, was still a V8.

Game changer, if there was one, has to be IMO XRGT because it started what became a V8 Ford v Holden culture in Aus. But then again, see the post above about Chrysler, but whatever it was, it wasnt an LS1. So unless you want to argue someone else would have done it anyway, which would defeat your whole argument about game changers anyway, that is more significant than the move to an LS1 at a time where Ford was worrying about "less is more" or some constraint.

But, as has been pointed out, there really wasnt a game changer, its just the evolution of motor companies and their products. Companies who respond to the market which include consumers, public perception (you know things like 'whats he compensating for' with that big V8 etc), government and the position on emissions or 'hoon', and oil prices, and the economy in general to name but a few variables other than competitors that car companies have to consider when deciding what they will build next. And they have to predict that because the R&D and planning stages are years before actual build and sale.

When did we go from Straight 8 to V8, maybe that was it, or the car demonstrated in an episode of Top Gear that showed the first car to have the pedal layout all car makers now follow instead of the proprietary design used before that. But even these things are evolution, not revolution.

The only real revolution I can think of off the top of my head, is the Rotary.

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by fmc351

Yeah, you might want to do more than read the post itself, and instead put it in perceptive of the post he answered.

Seems to me he is saying there really was no game changer, thus you could say the XF as much as any other car. He deliberately chose the XF as its probably the least game changing as it had no variant in a V8 and most bland car, to signify how pointless the argument is. Its just evolution.

hey thanks for acknowledging my post guys .
i was actually thinking that THE XF was the game changer which "CHANGED THE FACE OF PERFORMANCE" as it was not an evolution / but a step back . it was the car that had no V8 PERFORMANCE KING . it went against the trend for a big aussie car . did it change the face of performance , you betcha it did . V8 die hards switched to holden and holden continued development of race v8s . bahturst ended up with a MUSTANG v8 RACING AROUND THE TRACK no i6's to be seen anywhere .
when you think of any V8 we have now at our choice . think of the humble XF . one thing that car did , was keep the v8 alive and back with a vengence because it dropped it
i think the XF WAS THE SILENT PERFORMANCE GAME CHANGER . it did create the I6 , which branched off onto its own development , but it did not take the eyes away from V8'S , if anything it kept them alive m AND THE V8 may be here today because of the XF . THATS WAS THE PINICLE OF A PERFORMANCE GAME CHANGER .

[Donny]

Originally Posted by CAMS290

In 1965 the AP6 Valiant was available with a 273 V8 punching out 180hp, a full year before the XR GT..

The only thing I will say here is that the XR GT was the first car to offer the factory manual V8 in Australia, specifically in an Australian made V8 automobile..
All the early V8 Vals were automatic here in Aus.. And those days performance cars were NOT automatics..

To me, all the LS series engines were was a replacement engine to the Holden V8 which had run its course, and the 5.7 stroker versions of those with the single throttle body setups were not successful and were lame things, so it made sence to just reach out and pull down a crate engine from GM and just slap it into the commondogs of the day. And slap em in is all they did at the beginning..

[fmc351]

Originally Posted by gtfpv

hey thanks for acknowledging my post guys .
i was actually thinking that THE XF was the game changer which "CHANGED THE FACE OF PERFORMANCE" as it was not an evolution / but a step back . it was the car that had no V8 PERFORMANCE KING . it went against the trend for a big aussie car . did it change the face of performance , you betcha it did . V8 die hards switched to holden and holden continued development of race v8s . bahturst ended up with a MUSTANG v8 RACING AROUND THE TRACK no i6's to be seen anywhere .
when you think of any V8 we have now at our choice . think of the humble XF . one thing that car did , was keep the v8 alive and back with a vengence because it dropped it
i think the XF WAS THE SILENT PERFORMANCE GAME CHANGER . it did create the I6 , which branched off onto its own development , but it did not take the eyes away from V8'S , if anything it kept them alive m AND THE V8 may be here today because of the XF . THATS WAS THE PINICLE OF A PERFORMANCE GAME CHANGER .

Well thats an interesting take on it.

[Angeldust]

Do any of the younger blokes on here remember/know of the holden's v8 till 98 campaign?

Holden was too going to drop the v8, as they had to spend money on the bread and butter six to keep it inline with emissions and unleaded fuel.

Instead, holden drop the bread and butter model 6, and borrow an engine from Nissan for its mainstream models. The money gets spent on keeping the v8 alive.

It explains why there was very little in performance gained in the 5ltr over the next 10 year period and explains why there are so many holden lovers.. but

Honestly,in the more recent times (last 20 years) if it weren't for the LS1, we would all be driving AWD 2.0 turbo's by now. (my opinion)

[302 XC]

Wasnt the XF a huge seller for Ford ???

So here is a 6 cylinder only car that sells a motsa !!!

As for the LS1 being a game changer ???

We could turn the clock back about 40 years when holden dropped a chev LT1 350 in the aussie HG Monaro

Was that a game changer , yep

Was it a step up from the 5L at the time, yep
Did Holden source a better motor within the GM flanks,yep

[Ryan]

Originally Posted by Angeldust

Do any of the younger blokes on here remember/know of the holden's v8 till 98 campaign?

Holden was too going to drop the v8, as they had to spend money on the bread and butter six to keep it inline with emissions and unleaded fuel.

Instead, holden drop the bread and butter model 6, and borrow an engine from Nissan for its mainstream models. The money gets spent on keeping the v8 alive.

It explains why there was very little in performance gained in the 5ltr over the next 10 year period and explains why there are so many holden lovers.. but

Honestly,in the more recent times (last 20 years) if it weren't for the LS1, we would all be driving AWD 2.0 turbo's by now. (my opinion)

If I remember correctly for a short while the VL didn't even have a V8.

[ELGT4me]

Originally Posted by HULK_BA

So without the ls1, would we still have the i6t, boss 5.4s and fpv would have gone to the trouble all by itself to strap up a supercharger?

During the xf days and even with the first windsor v8s performance in aussie cars pretty much didnt move. fords v8 went from 1982 with a whopping 150kw 351 5.8 to 165kw in 1998. 15kw in 16yrs.

Then we go from 185kw in 99 (when ls1 introduced) to 290kw in 4 years.

EL GT 200kw's 1997? Or doesn't that rate as a car.

[burnz]

Originally Posted by ELGT4me

EL GT 200kw's 1997? Or doesn't that rate as a car.

hulk is talking XR8/SS bread and butter V8's..

[ELGT4me]

Originally Posted by burnz

hulk is talking XR8/SS bread and butter V8's..

True, the 185 kw XR8 used some of the EL GT package, then the FBT, in 1998 (March) was 195 kw's, difference being the Explorer Intake package. Still, it was only a 5.0 litre engine.The GTS R used a stroker engine, was $6k dearer for 30 kw's more. What was the cost of a T3 TS 50 when new? they were a 250 kw engine Tickford kept the mighty Windsor in the hunt until, "crate horsepower" by GM, became fashionable.