60 minutes tonight on young drivers.

[sleekism]

Originally Posted by flappist

What percentage of P plater deaths and injuries are 200km/h over the limit while drunk drag racing in a school yard in GTR skylines? Not a lot, they are just the ones that make the news.

Exactly I don't see how restricting P-Platers to low-powered puss boxes will for the length of their P's will help. Experience should be rewarded.

Let me give my perspective from a p-plater about to graduate to full licence and has done every bad thing in the book (burnoouts, 200+ etc.)

The difference is that I have NEVER had an accident. And contrary to what the Government says nobody else in my group of admittedly hoons have had one either and I am talking mates who are your stereotypical VL driving hat sideways persons.

The people I do now ho have crashed were driving unremarkable vehicles (Corollas, Kia Shumas etc.) and speed wasn't the issue it was DRUGS AND ALCOHOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The difference is that me and my mates had EXPERIENCE before we got our P's. I remember when I learnt about RWD. I was 10 and wanted to try doing a burnout so I borrowed my dads XE. I didn't know about brake jobs so I planted my foot around an intersection on my dads farm.

Going sideways down the road in an XE with no power steering taught me well.

Anyway I propose this too tier system:

P1:Allowed 100kn/h. No RWD unless lower than 150kw/tonne or fitted with traction or stability. No turbos, no v8 unless fitted with same.
From there you can continue on P1 for 3 years or after 1 year on P1....

Px: Do x courses to get Px allowed all vehicles. Valid for 2 years. Revoked if found hooning.

[Buddy 1]

Originally Posted by GORDZ

'aged' or 'older' drivers are saying that yes they made stupid decisions in their past, so I ask you this: what do you attribute your still being alive to?

Firstly you Cannot Put a Fully Developed Brain on under 25 Year Olds Shoulders as was Pointed out last night by the Scientists on ACA.

So taking that into account no amount of Driver Training will solve the Poor Judgment underdevoloped Brain issue, in other words you will not stop Teenagers being Teenagers & being Reckless.

Yes there are some who are Not however they would have to be a Minority.

I do Support Driver Training though as when we were young we used wet Paddocks & the Like to learn a bit of Car Control.

They also Pointed out that a few years older say 18 as opposed to 16 does make a differance with the Brain Issue, while still developing it has progressed a bit further along.

I agree 18 may not make Enough Differance & 21 would be better though that does become a bit Impractical for the young people as by then they may be left Home & working Full time in another Town etc..

Now to answer your Question, which I already have in my Previous post.

I made it through my Teen years by Luck & that is about it.

Yes I think I was better than the average driver my Age however I really Pushed the Speeding & Drinking to a high Degree (is a wonder I am here now).

[BENT_8]

Ok heres something for discussion.
Lets consider for a minute that the government dont want revenue from speeders and actually care about road safety.

Can someone tell me why they allow manufacturers in this country to build vehicles with enormous KW outputs when the places to use it are almost nil?

For example, recently there was a serious high speed fatality on Bridge rd Pooraka. The offenders vehicle was a black VZ SS 6litre 6speed ute.
The story goes that he was seen doing burnouts on Main nth rd, fled the scene being chased by a patrol car, pulled over on Research road, sped off again leaving the patrol car for dust.
Turned right onto Bridge rd, accelerated to such a speed that the patrol lost sight whilst still chasing. Lost control, turned 180* and killed 3 people.

All this from a ute with an actual load capacity no greater than a 6x4 trailer.

Now ask yourself this..why would you need nearly 300kw to cart 500kg and tow no more than 1800kg.
I can do that with an EA falcon, do i need a 6lt ute?

Now before you say what about the experienced guy who wants the big KW and should be allowed to have it remember the supercar scare, not too many 'p' platers were buying HO's but eventually they could and so it was stopped.

[Fev]

would you have it any different?

EDIT: the V8's and such, not the driver

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by Fev

would you have it any different?

EDIT: the V8's and such, not the driver

Damn straight, cars were designed to go from a to b without walking/riding a horse/bike.
Keep the race cars for the track

[RG]

So what you are saying is that I shouldn't have the choice of driving a high powered modified V8?

[BENT_8]

Did you get the choice to buy a Ph 4?

[GORDZ]

Originally Posted by Buddy 1

I agree 18 may not make Enough Differance & 21 would be better though that does become a bit Impractical for the young people as by then they may be left Home & working Full time in another Town etc..

Well yeah, I left home on my 18th bday to melbourne so not having a car would make me... well a uni student :P and my work required it so thats really not an option.

Originally Posted by Buddy 1

Now to answer your Question, which I already have in my Previous post.

I made it through my Teen years by Luck & that is about it.

Yes I think I was better than the average driver my Age however I really Pushed the Speeding & Drinking to a high Degree (is a wonder I am here now).

And you've hit the nail on the head. luck. luck when you made bad decisions...

I can relate to the paddock bashing to gain experience in out of control situations, I used an empty car park of a night. But these days, both are illegal. Is it no wonder we get 4WDs ramming p platers cars in parking lots? Yes I was a p plater, yes i was doing skids in parking lots, oversteering, 180s, you name it. but when it came to a large roundabout in the wet and one F of a pot hole in the middle, it wasn't me that wrapped their lancer around the pole.

What i'm saying is select people are going to do some pretty irresponsible crap on the roads, but the more experience / training that is AVAILABLE to them, the less deaths we're going to see on the roads. It's not a way to teach them how to do it safely ON the roads, it's an avenue to ALLOW them to do it in a controlled environment and also to teach them how to re-gain 'out of control' on the roads should it ever happen, and it does, intentionally or not.


BTW, how good was whincups drifting on the cooldown lap yesturday?

[RG]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

Did you get the choice to buy a Ph 4?

No, I wasn't born yet and they weren't made.

I did however have the choice to do what I did to mine. I also have the choice to go out and by a new FPV or HSV that are a lot more powerful than the P4.

It's called living is a "free" society, this is not the former East Germany, nor is it the former USSR, North Korea or Red China. If you want to be told how to live and what you can and can't do I suggest you find a country that has a Dictator as a ruler.

But this is off topic, so let's get back to it.

[Fev]

the fact of the matter is these law's everyone is thinking about and suggesting.. well they need to cater to basicly EVERYONE, raising the legal driving age to 21 is utterly stupid. making p'plate cars is just a stupid. What needs to be done is training. Training so people can go out and make their decisions with atleast some measure of experience in to what could happen as a consequence.. not turning Australia into North Korea and turning us all into mindless drones..


BTW.. tell me, when was the first time you drove a car? probably 15? when did you start driving on your own?? 16?? and yet you say the legal driving age for p's should be 21?!?!

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by Russell

No, I wasn't born yet and they weren't made.

I did however have the choice to do what I did to mine. I also have the choice to go out and by a new FPV or HSV that are a lot more powerful than the P4.

Thats right Ph4 never went into production apart from 1 because the government could see the writing on the wall.
It wasn't a case of poor handling, poor braking but too much power and top end speed.
The current FPV's are a lot heavier than a ph4, doesn't make it right.

Isn't flappists mandatory 'p' plate car forcing an issue on society, i didn't see you get defensive then, would you have driven a Prius type thing when you started out?

This topic could and will go on for an eternity but i believe the only remedy is to drill the msg into 10yr olds about cars being transport and not toys.
No good preaching to 16yr olds who are already set in their ways

[RG]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

Thats right Ph4 never went into production apart from 1 because the government could see the writing on the wall.
It wasn't a case of poor handling, poor braking but too much power and top end speed.
The current FPV's are a lot heavier than a ph4, doesn't make it right.

Isn't flappists mandatory 'p' plate car forcing an issue on society, i didn't see you get defensive then, would you have driven a Prius type thing when you started out?

I'm not getting defensive, I just don't agree with you.

As for "P plate cars" that is what is done with LAMS for motorbikes and no one seems to have an issue with that.

Still as long as a car, any car can drive at 60kph and hit a pole the result is going to be the same. You will be pretty hurt whether you are in a Prius or an XR8, 60 is 60.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by Buddy 1

Firstly you Cannot Put a Fully Developed Brain on under 25 Year Olds Shoulders as was Pointed out last night by the Scientists on ACA.

So taking that into account no amount of Driver Training will solve the Poor Judgment underdevoloped Brain issue, in other words you will not stop Teenagers being Teenagers & being Reckless.

Yes there are some who are Not however they would have to be a Minority.

I do Support Driver Training though as when we were young we used wet Paddocks & the Like to learn a bit of Car Control.

They also Pointed out that a few years older say 18 as opposed to 16 does make a differance with the Brain Issue, while still developing it has progressed a bit further along.

I agree 18 may not make Enough Differance & 21 would be better though that does become a bit Impractical for the young people as by then they may be left Home & working Full time in another Town etc..

Now to answer your Question, which I already have in my Previous post.

I made it through my Teen years by Luck & that is about it.

Yep, i agree 100%, and as Flappist points out, the average vehicle is just too powerful for young inexperienced drivers, especially over confident cocky ones..
It takes years of driving to gain the skills required to be comfortable in most circumstances, a single defensive driver coarse will do virtually nothing to fast track that learning, but as we all know, they're the best drivers on the road, just ask them.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by Russell

I'm not getting defensive, I just don't agree with you.

As for "P plate cars" that is what is done with LAMS for motorbikes and no one seems to have an issue with that.

Still as long as a car, any car can drive at 60kph and hit a pole the result is going to be the same. You will be pretty hurt whether you are in a Prius or an XR8, 60 is 60.

Thats ok, it's ok to disagree :

Driving into a light pole at 120 hurts too regardless of laws and licences, doesn't stop tools from trying though.

[ArTeesT]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Yep, i agree 100%, and Flappist points out, the average vehicle is just too powerful for young inexperienced drivers.. but as we all know, they're the best, just ask them.

That sucks. Its comments like that which are making out the all young people think they are the best. Its not true at all.

THERE are people out there that think like that but it isnt just young people. Ive got a 45 year old boss who thinks he is right about everything and knows all for example. Sure you have all met someone like this at times.

Dont group all young people together as it absolutly sucks for the ones that have done all the right things and now have to suffer.

[Buddy 1]

Originally Posted by GORDZ

BTW, how good was whincups drifting on the cooldown lap yesturday?

I just wish they would let Him Do Burnouts sometimes, well after He & Craig won Bathurst (for the third time) would have been ok

He is an Awesome Driver, oops off Topic.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by ArTeesT

That sucks. Its comments like that which are making out the all young people think they are the best. Its not true at all.

THERE are people out there that think like that but it isnt just young people. Ive got a 45 year old boss who thinks he is right about everything and knows all for example. Sure you have all met someone like this at times.

Dont group all young people together as it absolutly sucks for the ones that have done all the right things and now have to suffer.

It sucks more that so many inexperienced drivers are in total denial of their own abilities.. or lack there of..
P.S i know not all young drivers are "bad" drivers..

[Buddy 1]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Yep, i agree 100%, and as Flappist points out, the average vehicle is just too powerful for young inexperienced drivers, especially over confident cocky ones..
It takes years of driving to gain the skills required to be comfortable in most circumstances, a single defensive driver coarse will do virtually nothing to fast track that learning, but as we all know, they're the best drivers on the road, just ask them.

Spot on & in Fact some Young Drivers would then think they are Racing Car Drivers & have the Racing Skills because they did a Course & can Handle a car.

It all comes over time to Most of us, we Never stop Learning.

[RG]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

Thats ok, it's ok to disagree :

Driving into a light pole at 120 hurts too regardless of laws and licences, doesn't stop tools from trying though.

And there is something we can definitely agree on.

Laws and licensing can't overule stupidness.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by ArTeesT

That sucks. Its comments like that which are making out the all young people think they are the best. Its not true at all.

THERE are people out there that think like that but it isnt just young people. Ive got a 45 year old boss who thinks he is right about everything and knows all for example. Sure you have all met someone like this at times.

Dont group all young people together as it absolutly sucks for the ones that have done all the right things and now have to suffer.

Exactly, there will always be those that abide by the laws, buy the Prius if they have to but these good samaritans aren't the same teenagers that are wrapped around stobie poles.
Drugs are illegal too, theres laws for them but does it stop people from doing them..never will.

[flappist]

You are missing the point of the "P" car. Open licence holders cannot own them and can only drive them under exceptional circumstances.

They are heavily subsidised and are to be returned when the "P" period has expired. Basicly the idea is to have a P plater driving a $20k plus value NEW car for an amount they can afford. A "rental" for want of a better idea.

And NO THEY CAN'T SELL THEM AND YES THEY LOSE MONEY ON THEM but nowhere near as much as they will lose on an ordinary new car. It might even cost almost as much as half of their phone bill or a quarter of their alcho-pop bill or one eighth of their "name brand" clothing bill.

The idea is to give new players a chance. A side effect of this is that most will not buy a crappy old car when they get their opens as they are used to nice new and shiny. Ever seen a gen Y with a phone older than 6 months or last year's fashion?

[FlipXW]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Yep, i agree 100%, and as Flappist points out, the average vehicle is just too powerful for young inexperienced drivers, especially over confident cocky ones..
It takes years of driving to gain the skills required to be comfortable in most circumstances, a single defensive driver coarse will do virtually nothing to fast track that learning, but as we all know, they're the best drivers on the road, just ask them.

How and why? Before you start let me tell you im not a hoon, I don't think im Craig Lowndes and yes I am inexperienced. A situation that requires defensive driving that comes from experience can happen while you are driving any car. An idiot in a high powered car is a problem because the person driving will do dangerous things. The problem comes from stupid driving and bad decisions (which unfortunately is a big part of what young people do) not inexperience. As iv'e already stated I was driving a V8 from day 1, my inexperience NEVER got me into trouble not once. If I chose to be an idiot and race people of drive at 160k cause its 'cool' maybe then I would have got into troube. My point is that if you drive to the law why should you not be able to drive what you want. To much power and inexperience has nothing to do with eachother. To much power and maturity has everything to do with eachother.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by Russell

And there is something we can definitely agree on.

Laws and licensing can't overule stupidness.

OK i have to admit i struggle to put words on my keyboard but what you just wrote is exactly what i have been banging my head against a brick wall to get across.
They can do whatever they like to restrict young people but the honest law abiding ones arent theones found on said stobie poles.
2000 Prius driving, law abiding citizens aint gonna stop johnny rotten from writing off dads SS.

[GORDZ]

i know there are no bandaid fixes to this problem, but what about what ACA did years ago... put 2 small cameras on the rear view mirror. 1 pointing out to the front, 1 pointing at the camera. Exceed a certain g-force and the cameras record what both the driver and the car were doing. That was an 'out of interest report' but lets take that a little further hmm?

Tie it in with a GPS system, and if the cameras activate while you're on public roads, then that footage gets sent to the courts / police. Fund the system with the ludicrous amounts of revenue raised by speed cameras. the setup would cost $2500 max. Maybe only install the system on young drivers who have been busted for 40kph+ over the limit or for convicted 'hoons'

NOW how many P platers are going to be taking it easier on public roads?

[GORDZ]

Originally Posted by flappist

Ever seen a gen Y with a phone older than 6 months or last year's fashion?

my phones 3 years old and i shop at target
:


:

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by flappist

Ever seen a gen Y with a phone older than 6 months or last year's fashion?

No. but i've seen plenty of vs commy driving 'p' platers leaving burnout comps, they dont mind driving older cars as long as it's cool to be in one.

[ArTeesT]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

2000 Prius driving, law abiding citizens aint gonna stop johnny rotten from writing off dads SS.

Works the other way around too . Law abiding SS Driver, ur still not gonna stop johnny rotten from writing off his mums prius

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by PhilXR8

How and why? Before you start let me tell you im not a hoon, I don't think im Craig Lowndes and yes I am inexperienced. A situation that requires defensive driving that comes from experience can happen while you are driving any car. An idiot in a high powered car is a problem because the person driving will do dangerous things. The problem comes from stupid driving and bad decisions (which unfortunately is a big part of what young people do) not inexperience. As iv'e already stated I was driving a V8 from day 1, my inexperience NEVER got me into trouble not once. If I chose to be an idiot and race people of drive at 160k cause its 'cool' maybe then I would have got into troube. My point is that if you drive to the law why should you not be able to drive what you want. To much power and inexperience has nothing to do with eachother. To much power and maturity has everything to do with eachother.

Your last statement is very true, too much power and (a lack of) Maturity is a HUGE issue, and as Flappist said earlier, too much power with inexperience can also catch you out, it just makes things happen way too quick.
You cant design laws that allow some young drivers to have their 2000RWKW rockets and others not, its far safer and wiser to protect all of them till they have some years experience under their belts and a few years extra maturity between the ears..

[ArTeesT]

We should then be pushing to give them as much professional experience as possible then. Not taking stuff away.

[BENT_8]

Ok, my heads sore, i wont bring myself to rely on capitals to get my point across so good luck to you all.
I'm off now to educate my 10yr old about how to conduct oneself whilst behind the wheel.
I'll let you know in 7yrs how i go..lol