Newsflash: Front Wheel Drive is rubbish! - Page 6

geckoGT · 19-03-2010, 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrbaxr6t

go drive a Focus XR5 before saying they are unpredictable thanks.
friend has a JCW mini and he says its predictable torque steers one way and pulls the other way under breaks EVERY TIME sounds predictable to me?

I agree, we have a Mini Cooper S with JCW engine tuning kit and find the same thing. Yes it has torque steer but it is predictable, it will pull to the right so you quickly learn to weight the wheel to the left a bit when you plant the throttle (especially when over boost comes in). We also get a gentle pull to the left under heavy brakes so you learn to weight the right side of the wheel. Very predictable and very easy to control, kind of adds to the driver involvement.

A good friend of mine has a VW Golf GTI with a APR tuning kit (heaps more grunt than the mini) but it has less torque steer than our Mini, he actually says he prefers playing in our Mini because it is more involving to drive.

388cube_edxr8 · 19-03-2010, 07:47 PM

Lift off understeer, power understeer, lift off oversteer, pulling left/right under wheelspin, need I go on?

At least with a RWD its easier to guess what its going to do next.

jpd80 · 19-03-2010, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by geckoGT

I agree, we have a Mini Cooper S with JCW engine tuning kit and find the same thing. Yes it has torque steer but it is predictable, it will pull to the right so you quickly learn to weight the wheel to the left a bit when you plant the throttle (especially when over boost comes in). We also get a gentle pull to the left under heavy brakes so you learn to weight the right side of the wheel. Very predictable and very easy to control, kind of adds to the driver involvement.

A good friend of mine has a VW Golf GTI with a APR tuning kit (heaps more grunt than the mini) but it has less torque steer than our Mini, he actually says he prefers playing in our Mini because it is more involving to drive.

Yes, those with the RWD blinkers on can't appreciate good cars no matter what they are.

geckoGT · 19-03-2010, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 388cube_edxr8

Lift off understeer, power understeer, lift off oversteer, pulling left/right under wheelspin, need I go on?

At least with a RWD its easier to guess what its going to do next.

Understeer and power oversteer are both situations that hit a RWD. Similarly lift-off oversteer occurs in RWD too, particularly in cars that have a higher weight bias to the rear, with spectacular results in rear engine cars such porsche.

A rear wheel drive car, particularly one with a LSD, when planted and breaks traction, will pull one way or the other. Normally they will slip to the side that is "down hill" according to road camber (you guess which way). At least torque steer is always the same way.

My point is both have characteristics and neither is more predictable than the other. It is about learning to drive your car according to its characteristics, not some crazy idea of which is better or what it should be doing.

As a side note, in the upper ranges of performance driving, I find our Mini Cooper S a lot more predictable and less likely to turn around and bite my head off than the Super Pursuit.

cosmo20btt · 19-03-2010, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 388cube_edxr8

Lift off understeer, power understeer, lift off oversteer, pulling left/right under wheelspin, need I go on?

At least with a RWD its easier to guess what its going to do next.

+1 torque steer may make it predictable but it means your at the limit of adhesion, whereas a good driver becomes better when he knows how his RWD will react.

geckoGT · 19-03-2010, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpd80

Yes, those with the RWD blinkers on can't appreciate good cars no matter what they are.

Yep, we all know that FWD is the product of the devil and makes baby Jesus cry

:

geckoGT · 19-03-2010, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cosmo20btt

+1 torque steer may make it predictable but it means your at the limit of adhesion, whereas a good driver becomes better when he knows how his RWD will react.

You need to drive a modern, high performance FWD (one that comes with decent tyres) such as the Golf GTI, Mini Cooper S etc. By torque steer we are not talking wrist snapping, lane jumping torque steer. It is now more like a gentle tug that is easily controlled. How many high performance FWD's have you driven, that are less than 5 years old?

So a RWD with tyres spinning is not at the "limit of adhesion"? A FWD driver can not learn how his car reacts, and become a better driver in the process?

Actually, a FWD that is displaying torque steer on acceleration is also showing it has adhesion, as adhesion is required at the front wheels for torque steer to occur. Once adhesion is exceeded, you get wheel spin.

cosmo20btt · 19-03-2010, 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by geckoGT

You need to drive a modern, high performance FWD (one that comes with decent tyres) such as the Golf GTI, Mini Cooper S etc. By torque steer we are not talking wrist snapping, lane jumping torque steer. It is now more like a gentle tug that is easily controlled. How many high performance FWD's have you driven, that are less than 5 years old?

So a RWD with tyres spinning is not at the "limit of adhesion"? A FWD driver can not learn how his car reacts, and become a better driver in the process?

I have an sp23 ( which I believe has the Focus chassis) and it handles pretty darn good so I know what a modern day car drives like, and yes I still prefer to drive my old Falcon ute ( mate of mine has a BMW and was quite surprised how well an old Falcon can go in the wet)as I can pump through some corners if I wanted to.

jpd80 · 19-03-2010, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by geckoGT

Yep, we all know that FWD is the product of the devil and makes baby Jesus cry

:

AWD systems now are becoming sophisticated with varying the torque split, if the Americans
can put the Ecoboost V6 and AWD into the next Fusion/Mondeo, that will be a rocket.

Could this be the carrot being dangled in front of Ford Australia?

Falcon V8 car sales are barely 2,500/year and continue to fall.
by 2015 they might be gone and as the XR6T and G6ET show
a six cylinder turbo car would surely be the heir apparent...

Dave_au · 19-03-2010, 08:41 PM

Three points:

1) More people will lose control in a RWD experiencing oversteer than in a FWD experiencing understeer, period.

2) More people will buy small and medium FWD cars from now on. Large, rear wheel drive Australian cars will never recover to the levels of sales that they experienced in the 1980s and 1990s.

3) RWD, largely driven by marketing, will become an exclusive feature of premium brands. The Ford Falcon and the Holden Commodore will never be accepted in this prestigious league and are doomed for eventual failure, not because they are flawed, but because they are, or will never be accepted by the public as a creditable competitor to BMW, Mercedes, or Lexus. Unless your willing to pay the premium, you will be driving an AWD or a FWD within the next 2 decades.

geckoGT · 19-03-2010, 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cosmo20btt

I have an sp23 ( which I believe has the Focus chassis) and it handles pretty darn good so I know what a modern day car drives like, and yes I still prefer to drive my old Falcon ute ( mate of mine has a BMW and was quite surprised how well an old Falcon can go in the wet)as I can pump through some corners if I wanted to.

I had a SP23 and yes they are good but I am sorry, they are not in the same class. Not sure what experience you are basing your previous comment on. By this I mean, in one post you slam FWD handling , but in your next you comment that your FWD handles "pretty darn good".

geckoGT · 19-03-2010, 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave_au

Three points:

1) More people will lose control in a RWD experiencing oversteer than in a FWD experiencing understeer, period.

2) More people will buy small and medium FWD cars from now on. Large, rear wheel drive Australian cars will never recover to the levels of sales that they experienced in the 1980s and 1990s.

3) RWD, largely driven by marketing, will become an exclusive feature of premium brands. The Ford Falcon and the Holden Commodore will never be accepted in this prestigious league and are doomed for eventual failure, not because they are flawed, but because they are, or will never be accepted by the public as a creditable competitor to BMW, Mercedes, or Lexus. Unless your willing to pay the premium, you will be driving an AWD or a FWD within the next 2 decades.

All that will make baby Jesus inconsolable!

cosmo20btt · 19-03-2010, 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by geckoGT

I had a SP23 and yes they are good but I am sorry, they are not in the same class. Not sure what experience you are basing your previous comment on. By this I mean, in one post you slam FWD handling , but in your next you comment that your FWD handles "pretty darn good".

I never said that FWDs cant handle, I just said that a good RWD will be better, I admit that if you have a good driver in a Good FWD, they would run rings around a not so experienced RWD driver, but put a good driver in a good RWD car and they will pip them at the post..
This is if all things are equal.

jpd80 · 19-03-2010, 08:56 PM

The battle of FWD Vs RWD for mass produced cars was won and lost years ago,
Apart from expensive exotics, Falcon, Commodore, Cadillac CTS,
and Chrysler 300 are the last bastions of old Detroit.

Enjoy them while you still can.

geckoGT · 19-03-2010, 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cosmo20btt

I never said that FWDs cant handle, I just said that a good RWD will be better, I admit that if you have a good driver in a Good FWD, they would run rings around a not so experienced RWD driver, but put a good driver in a good RWD car and they will pip them at the post..

What a load of rubbish, tell you what. I will meet you at QR, you can drive our live axle RWD high performance ute (Super Pursuit) and I will drive the mini, I will win. Then we will swap and you will win. It is not only about FWD vs RWD, there is a lot more to it than that. To say that FWD is inferior period, is being way too simplistic about the matter.

cosmo20btt · 19-03-2010, 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by geckoGT

What a load of rubbish, tell you what. I will meet you at QR, you can drive our live axle RWD high performance ute (Super Pursuit) and I will drive the mini, I will win. Then we will swap and you will win. It is not only about FWD vs RWD, there is a lot more to it than that. To say that FWD is inferior period, is being way too simplistic about the matter.

Well it appears that F1 and all the great motor sports of the world have been doing it wrong for years then as FWD would have been better then, and I am not going to get into a ****ing contest with you over this, My only concern is that Ford do not go FWD as it would no longer represent production in Australia, there will be no utes to buy, it will look like little America (no offence to Americans) we will lose what is Australian to me and some, obviously there are some who don't.

whynot · 19-03-2010, 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 388cube_edxr8

Lift off understeer, power understeer, lift off oversteer, pulling left/right under wheelspin, need I go on?

At least with a RWD its easier to guess what its going to do next.

These test results are getting a bit dated, but interesting nevertheless

http://www.carsales.com.au/reviews/2...8-results-6328

While my favourite vehicle is still the Territory and my daily driver is a G6E, I love taking the wife’s Mazda 3 out for a spin. Purely for the sheer driving pleasure it gives.

jpd80 · 19-03-2010, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cosmo20btt

Well it appears that F1 and all the great motor sports of the world have been doing it wrong for years then as FWD would have been better then, and I am not going to get into a ****ing contest with you over this, My only concern is that Ford do not go FWD as it would no longer represent production in Australia, there will be no utes to buy, it will look like little America (no offence to Americans) we will lose what is Australian to me and some, obviously there are some who don't.

Then show your support and buy a new Falcon, unless you do that Ford don't know you exist.
If you already own a nice FG then good for you because there are too many
would be Falcon buyers sitting on the sidelines buying second hand and then
bemoaning Ford wanting to do something else...

geckoGT · 19-03-2010, 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cosmo20btt

Well it appears that F1 and all the great motor sports of the world have been doing it wrong for years then as FWD would have been better then, and I am not going to get into a ****ing contest with you over this, My only concern is that Ford do not go FWD as it would no longer represent production in Australia, there will be no utes to buy, it will look like little America (no offence to Americans) we will lose what is Australian to me and some, obviously there are some who don't.

You are actually reinforcing my point, which is neither is superior or inferior, they have individual characteristics that suit different applications. Many features and characteristics on a F1 would make for a crappy road car. Anyway, enjoy your RWD ute, like we enjoy ours. I agree with jpd80, you better buy a new one or you might be hanging onto yours a lot longer.

Dave_au · 19-03-2010, 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by geckoGT

All that will make baby Jesus inconsolable!

Well baby Jesus drives a prius (fwd) or a hummer (4wd). Either or, there's no RWD involved!

cosmo20btt · 19-03-2010, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by geckoGT

You are actually reinforcing my point, which is neither is superior or inferior, they have individual characteristics that suit different applications. Many features and characteristics on a F1 would make for a crappy road car. Anyway, enjoy your RWD ute, like we enjoy ours. I agree with jpd80, you better buy a new one or you might be hanging onto yours a lot longer.

Well by the way you were commenting it sounds more like FWD is superior to RWD, When you go by category then, motorsport RWD is more popular, when carrying a load IE: 1 to 4.5 tonne then RWD is more popular, when carrying people IE: buses or charters then RWD is more popular, when off road work is required then 4WD seems to be popular, but when it comes to making smaller cars for the masses cheaply it appears that FWD seems to be popular, FWD is being forced onto car buyers whether they like it or not, because it is what it is a form of cheaper manufacturing, if you a happy in your FWD fine, just don't try convincing me.

geckoGT · 19-03-2010, 10:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cosmo20btt

Well by the way you were commenting it sounds more like FWD is superior to RWD, When you go by category then, motorsport RWD is more popular, when carrying a load IE: 1 to 4.5 tonne then RWD is more popular, when carrying people IE: buses or charters then RWD is more popular, when off road work is required then 4WD seems to be popular, but when it comes to making smaller cars for the masses cheaply it appears that FWD seems to be popular, FWD is being forced onto car buyers whether they like it or not, because it is what it is a form of cheaper manufacturing, if you a happy in your FWD fine, just don't try convincing me.

I am not trying to convince anyone that FWD is the best, not by a long way. I am just trying to convey a point that it has its application, and in the sense of the family hack that never gets pushed to its limits and does not tow, it does fine. Of course many here do not see that as the majority here are car enthusiasts and like to give their cars a nudge, so therefore it may not suit them. In terms of small hi performance cars, in many ways FWD is superior as it is more predictable rather than having a SWB RWD high performance car trying to end swap powering out of corners. If our Mini was RWD, the moment the rear wheels lost traction under power through a corner, it would flick around so fast you would be off the road before you realised it was happening. Hell, on heavy braking into a corner the rear can get very light. This is without mentioning weight distribution, interior space and cost on this class of car. I hope that makes sense.

Of course this is all the resulting debate out of the original gross generalisation from the start of this thread.

cosmo20btt · 19-03-2010, 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by geckoGT

I am not trying to convince anyone that FWD is the best, not by a long way. I am just trying to convey a point that it has its application, and in the sense of the family hack that never gets pushed to its limits and does not tow, it does fine. Of course many here do not see that as the majority here are car enthusiasts and like to give their cars a nudge, so therefore it may not suit them. In terms of small hi performance cars, in many ways FWD is superior as it is more predictable rather than having a SWB RWD high performance car trying to end swap powering out of corners. If our Mini was RWD, the moment the rear wheels lost traction under power through a corner, it would flick around so fast you would be off the road before you realised it was happening. Hell, on heavy braking into a corner the rear can get very light. This is without mentioning weight distribution, interior space and cost on this class of car. I hope that makes sense.

Of course this is all the resulting debate out of the original gross generalisation from the start of this thread.

May be you should look at driving an earlier Mazda RX7 (FD) , RX8 or perhaps mx5 as they are still standard RWD cars that when others want to get into the motorsport scene the RX7 is the 1st car of choice. I feel it is a shame that cars like the V6 Capri and some of the Cortina's and Escort's are no longer made today, I wonder sometimes what they would be like if continued on past the Eighties.

geckoGT · 19-03-2010, 11:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cosmo20btt

May be you should look at driving an earlier Mazda RX7 (FD) , RX8 or perhaps mx5 as they are still standard RWD cars that when others want to get into the motorsport scene the RX7 is the 1st car of choice. I feel it is a shame that cars like the V6 Capri and some of the Cortina's and Escort's are no longer made today, I wonder sometimes what they would be like if continued on past the Eighties.

I think you will find most of these have a longer wheelbase than the Mini, Golf and the BMW 1 series hatch. My comment still stands, its all a question of application.

cosmo20btt · 19-03-2010, 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by geckoGT

I think you will find most of these have a longer wheelbase than the Mini, Golf and the BMW 1 series hatch. My comment still stands, its all a question of application.

According to Wikipedia Mini 2470mm, MX5 2330mm, FD RX7 2426mm

geckoGT · 19-03-2010, 11:59 PM

Of these, only one has the cabin restrictions of seating 4, FWD wins in small cars with cabin requirements for reasonable seating capacity.

jpd80 · 20-03-2010, 07:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cosmo20btt

I feel it is a shame that cars like the V6 Capri and some of the Cortina's and Escort's are no longer made today, I wonder sometimes what they would be like if continued on past the Eighties.

It's a pity that FoA and FNA couldn't get their heads together on a common RWD platform,
US do LHD T'Bird/Maverick/Mustang and we do RHD markets - Falcon/Cortina/Capri

cosmo20btt · 20-03-2010, 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpd80

It's a pity that FoA and FNA couldn't get their heads together on a common RWD platform,
US do LHD T'Bird/Maverick/Mustang and we do RHD markets - Falcon/Cortina/Capri

Very true, but right now I would settle with knowing whether FOA will keep the Falcon in it's current guise or at least go Project Pegasus.

cosmo20btt · 20-03-2010, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by geckoGT

Of these, only one has the cabin restrictions of seating 4, FWD wins in small cars with cabin requirements for reasonable seating capacity.

My point being that RX7 and RX8 and MX5 are serious track cars if you really are interested in going to meets, and the RX8 can accommodate 4 people and uses no turbo or charger, albeit that the wheel base is slightly longer than the mini.
http://www.caradvice.com.au/3766/maz...nce-drive-day/
http://www.caradvice.com.au/3766/maz...e-drive-day/6/

jpd80 · 20-03-2010, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cosmo20btt

Very true, but right now I would settle with knowing whether FOA will keep the Falcon in it's current guise or at least go Project Pegasus.

Like the rest of us, you'll just have to wait...

We still have nearly five years of E8 Falcon, something the red squad media completely overlooks....
In that time it's quite possible that Falcon and Mustang could simply evolve towards each other,
in doing that we receive all the benefits of a major platform without the engineering constraints..