4cyl Falcon - Who will buy one? - Page 6

The Stylist · 01-01-2012, 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prydey

maybe the rest of the mondeo package isn't up to more power. maybe more power would mean a lot of other calibrations would need to be changed. similar to FPV whacking the SCV8 under the bonnet without changing much in the way of chassis dynamics means the overall package isn't quite what it used to be. just a guess, but i'd also say, for that class and demographic, the 149kw tune is ample.

It indeed can handle more power, in the UK/Europe the Mondeo Ecoboost engine comes in two states of tune - 149kw and a higher output of 177kW/340Nm. The latter also has the same fuel economy rating as the 149kw version.

I'm thinking Ford went for the lower state of tune in the Mondeo so it wouldn't step on the toes of the Falcon Ecoboost.

2011G6E · 01-01-2012, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chevypower

it's a weird one. Torque gets it going off the line and gives the driver the throttle response, but power gives the acceleration times.

Yet another thing that people worry far too much about...when was the last time Joe Average engaged in a drag race or worried about 0-100 times? The only, literally only "acceleration times" that concern 99.9% of drivers is the 80 to 110 times...or overtaking time basically. Some reviews publish that figure, some don't, all should.

Cars are built for the mass market, and include things that the majority of people are going to want and use and need...and the lowest quarter time or zero to one hundred time are waaaaay down the list of important things for a family car.

jpd80 · 01-01-2012, 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chevypower

it's a weird one. Torque gets it going off the line and gives the driver the throttle response, but power gives the acceleration times.

That's why I-4 Ecoboost is a better balance of performance and fuel economy in Falcon that a low HP diesel..

Rodge · 01-01-2012, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Stylist

It indeed can handle more power, in the UK/Europe the Mondeo Ecoboost engine comes in two states of tune - 149kw and a higher output of 177kW/340Nm. The latter also has the same fuel economy rating as the 149kw version.

I'm thinking Ford went for the lower state of tune in the Mondeo so it wouldn't step on the toes of the Falcon Ecoboost.

Yeap, there's very little doubt about that.

Having said that customers want more fuel efficiency, economic times are tight and I concurr, the Falcon has its own charms that are unique to it so it can't be a bad thing what FOA are doing with the Ecoboost Falc.

With the diesel Terry, the liquid injection LPG Falc and now the forthcoming Ecoboost Falc all in fairly short order, nobody could accuse Ford Aust of sitting on their laurels in the fuel efficiency stakes.

Whether that's enough to encourage buyers back into larger cars... It'll be interesting to see how that plays out.

csv8 · 01-01-2012, 10:07 AM

Rodge..how about a V8 diesel!!! or talk VW into giving FORD their V10 or Audi their V12...oops..too much JD's!!!

2011G6E · 01-01-2012, 10:09 AM

Not sure about the rego price differences in other states between numbers of cylinders, but Ford would be mind-bogglingly stupid in Queensland not to remind people loud and proud of how big and roomy a car they are getting but they'd still only be paying the same rego and getting the same economy (if not better) as some little cramped Hyundai coupe...

Maybe have a TV advert where they park a generic little four cylinder car (the smaller the better) and list the costs of registration and fuel economy, then have a Falcon drive in and park beside it and show the size difference, and then say "...and this Australian built large sedan will cost you the exact same costs to run...which would you rather drive?"

prydey · 01-01-2012, 10:13 AM

rego in sa is determined by cylinder count but not sure on vic and nsw. i think one or both of them use a different system.

i'll never understand why we can't have a national system for vehicle registration. also, if we had a decent system, it should mean that i can buy a car interstate and have any roadworthy certificate acknowledged in any state.

sorry, off topic.

jpd80 · 01-01-2012, 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by csv8

Rodge..how about a V8 diesel!!! or talk VW into giving FORD their V10 or Audi their V12...oops..too much JD's!!!

Ford builds the V12 for Aston Martin, it's basically a doubling of V6 Duratec...
A lower performance 7.5 litre version for Super Duty trucks would be an interesting move

Rodge · 01-01-2012, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by csv8

Rodge..how about a V8 diesel!!! or talk VW into giving FORD their V10 or Audi their V12...oops..too much JD's!!!

not sure that will be a perfect fit for more fuel efficiency

Speaking of efficiency, someone mentioned earlier that the urban consumption of the Ecoboost Mondeo was only 11 litres per 100 km's, (which seems quite impressive) and taking that as a proxy for the new Ecoboost Falc how does that compare to the official urban consumption of a NA I6 ?

prydey · 01-01-2012, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rodge

Speaking of efficiency, someone mentioned earlier that the urban consumption of the Ecoboost Mondeo was only 11 litres per 100 km's, (which seems quite impressive) and taking that as a proxy for the new Ecoboost Falc how does that compare to the official urban consumption of a NA I6 ?

ecoboost mondeo

urban 11
extra urban 6.3

6cyl falcon xt/g6

urban 13.8
extra urban 7.6

ecoboost would be somewhere in between you would think. probably closer to the mondeo than falcon though.

TMC · 01-01-2012, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chevypower

it's a weird one. Torque gets it going off the line and gives the driver the throttle response, but power gives the acceleration times.

Actually No. Power is the rate at which torque is applied. Without torque (twisting force) there is no power. If you can apply torque at an ever faster and faster rate as the revs are applied, the power goes up accordingly.

2011G6E · 01-01-2012, 11:20 AM

The old saying applies perfectly again..."Horsepower makes a car quick, but Torque makes it pleasant to drive..."

chevypower · 01-01-2012, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TMC

Actually No. Power is the rate at which torque is applied. Without torque (twisting force) there is no power. If you can apply torque at an ever faster and faster rate as the revs are applied, the power goes up accordingly.

Well yeah it is impossible to have power with zero torque or vice-versa, but if you had to choose one over the other, what I said was correct. Engine A produces more torque than engine B, but engine B produces more power, all else being equal, engine A will launch easier off the line, but engine B will win the drag race.

Quote:

Originally Posted by csv8

Rodge..how about a V8 diesel!!! or talk VW into giving FORD their V10 or Audi their V12...oops..too much JD's!!!

Ford doesn't need to. Ford makes a 4.4L V8 and a 6.7L V8 Common Rail diesel, both with CGI blocks.

csv8 · 01-01-2012, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

Not sure about the rego price differences in other states between numbers of cylinders, but Ford would be mind-bogglingly stupid in Queensland not to remind people loud and proud of how big and roomy a car they are getting but they'd still only be paying the same rego and getting the same economy (if not better) as some little cramped Hyundai coupe...

Maybe have a TV advert where they park a generic little four cylinder car (the smaller the better) and list the costs of registration and fuel economy, then have a Falcon drive in and park beside it and show the size difference, and then say "...and this Australian built large sedan will cost you the exact same costs to run...which would you rather drive?"

Won't happen..Ford marketing aren't pro-active or forward thinking enough to have an advert campaign like that!!! But I agree, that would be a good campaign...

z80 · 01-01-2012, 12:54 PM

The Volvo ecoboost and Mondeo ecoboost being FWD have different transmission losses versus the RWD falcon (by the time the power gets to the wheels.)
(170kw and 149kw respectively)

It will be interesting to see the difference RWD makes for the same engine in the Falcon.

Will it need the same boost levels to achieve the same power output and hence the fuel consumption as the FWD adaptations?

Since those two cars are being used as the comparison it will be a very interesting outcome indeed.

burnz · 01-01-2012, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prydey

rego in sa is determined by cylinder count but not sure on vic and nsw. i think one or both of them use a different system.

i'll never understand why we can't have a national system for vehicle registration. also, if we had a decent system, it should mean that i can buy a car interstate and have any roadworthy certificate acknowledged in any state.

sorry, off topic.

NSW rego goes by tare weight.

raptorv8 · 01-01-2012, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by csv8

Won't happen..Ford marketing aren't pro-active or forward thinking enough to have an advert campaign like that!!! But I agree, that would be a good campaign...

No they aren't...oh hang on what about the $2 grand prix, the econetic fiesta vs prius did pretty much exactly that

gtfpv · 01-01-2012, 02:30 PM

power and torque are importnat sure . but its the sound of the 6cyl that i like . if i hear a datsun sounding falcon , i will not buy it .

csv8 · 01-01-2012, 02:32 PM

Econetic is a niche model..not a regular model people go out to buy..only appeals to greenies..The mainstream volume sellers need much better advertising....

Bossxr8 · 01-01-2012, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by z80

The Volvo ecoboost and Mondeo ecoboost being FWD have different transmission losses versus the RWD falcon (by the time the power gets to the wheels.)
(170kw and 149kw respectively)

It will be interesting to see the difference RWD makes for the same engine in the Falcon.

Will it need the same boost levels to achieve the same power output and hence the fuel consumption as the FWD adaptations?

Since those two cars are being used as the comparison it will be a very interesting outcome indeed.

The engines still make the same amount of power at the same boost etc, driveline friction only effects how much of that power gets to the wheels.

And the differences may be only 1 or 2%. But RWD also has the advantage of not needing to have much, if any, torque reduction to protect the transmissions as the FWD cars do. So outputs at the wheels would be similar anyway, at least in 1st gear where high powered FWD cars usually have strong torque reduction strategies to protect the gearbox.

TMC · 01-01-2012, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chevypower

Well yeah it is impossible to have power with zero torque or vice-versa, but if you had to choose one over the other, what I said was correct. Engine A produces more torque than engine B, but engine B produces more power, all else being equal, engine A will launch easier off the line, but engine B will win the drag race.

Not necessarily. Without dealing in specifics it's hard to calculate the outcome. But what if engine B with higher peak output but lower overall torque doesn't reach maximum power until after the end of the quarter mile. Engine A wins. Engine B will always be in catch up mode.

Lets look at 2 hypothetical engines.

Engine A 175kW at 5000 Rpm, 360Nm from 1800-4000 Rpm

Engine B 210kW at 6000 Rpm, 300Nm from 1800-5000 Rpm

If they ran the same transmission and vehicle weights the Engine A car would always win a drag race against Engine B car.

Looking at the Ecoboost 4, if it has a big fat flat torque curve, it will still be a relatively quick car compared to the I6 which also has a big fat flat torque curve. Compared to the peaky Omega SIDI 3L, the Ecoboost should wipe the floor with it due to it's big fat torque curve.

vztrt · 01-01-2012, 10:28 PM

I wouldn't buy one as I would prefer the LPi Falcon.

But I like this car and it should do well with fleets were a Falcon can't get a look in.

jpd80 · 01-01-2012, 10:40 PM

Sounds like we all agree that EcoLPi, Ecoboost and petrol I-6 Falcons are different enough to draw in different buyers
without encroaching on each other's sales potential, I see this strategy as a very positive move from Ford,
a great attempt to restore volume back to the Falcon range that also keeps running costs to a minimum...

Bossxr8 · 02-01-2012, 01:20 PM

Being 4 cylinder allows Ford to access 4 cylinder only fleets they never had access to before with any locally made products.

This alone makes the Ecoboost Falcon worthwhile.

naddis01 · 02-01-2012, 02:32 PM

It may give access to 4 cylinder only fleets, however you would assume they have a 4 cylinder only policy to reduce costs (although they probably say its for environmental reasons). So how does a $40k Falcon (minus fleet discounts) stack up against a $20k Corolla etc in that case?

jpd80 · 02-01-2012, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by naddis01

It may give access to 4 cylinder only fleets, however you would assume they have a 4 cylinder only policy to reduce costs (although they probably say its for environmental reasons). So how does a $40k Falcon (minus fleet discounts) stack up against a $20k Corolla etc in that case?

The priority is locally built I-4 cars, namely Camry, Cruze and now EB Falcon.
Unfortunately some govcos are breaking ranks and buying Hyundais claiming more savings.

It will be an interesting wash up, Falcon clearly has several strategies to offer retail and fleet buyers,
having that diversity in product will surely reap them big dividends, Holden has LPG too but Ford has
them covered with Ecoboost I-4, I don't think they have a suitable economic answer to that engine...

Bossxr8 · 02-01-2012, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by naddis01

It may give access to 4 cylinder only fleets, however you would assume they have a 4 cylinder only policy to reduce costs (although they probably say its for environmental reasons). So how does a $40k Falcon (minus fleet discounts) stack up against a $20k Corolla etc in that case?

It does if they want a large car, or are user choosers who can pick any 4 cyl they want.

I'm sure the policy would state 4 cylinder only, and not fuel consumption limits. The previous model Camry used over 8 litres per 100 in some versions and fleets bought thousands and thousands of them, and they aren't that much cheaper than the Falcon, especially now that the FG MkII's price has been slashed.

So can't see how its a problem.

Some fleets would have max prices they can spend per vehicle but if thats the case the Falcon wouldn't be in the hunt anyway if it all comes down to RRP.

ebwolf · 24-01-2012, 06:36 PM

i would not buy one. i like my 4lt i6 becouse it is a strong engine and it does not seem to work to hard. i dont worry about fuel economy that much becouse it only takes me to work and back. if i turned up to work and my boss handed me to keys to a 4cyl ford ute i would use it becouse it is not my ute. all i want from the 4cyl is that it can haul a decent sized load every day and not ware out to quick. the bogo hilux i use at the moment will be hard to beat.

prydey · 24-01-2012, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ebwolf

i would not buy one. i like my 4lt i6 becouse it is a strong engine and it does not seem to work to hard.

you are assuming the ecoboost won't be a strong engine and will have to work hard?!

jpd80 · 24-01-2012, 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ebwolf

i would not buy one. i like my 4lt i6 becouse it is a strong engine and it does not seem to work to hard. i dont worry about fuel economy that much becouse it only takes me to work and back. if i turned up to work and my boss handed me to keys to a 4cyl ford ute i would use it becouse it is not my ute. all i want from the 4cyl is that it can haul a decent sized load every day and not ware out to quick. the bogo hilux i use at the moment will be hard to beat.

With the greatest respect, Ford is not about converting genuine I-6 buyers to Ecoboost,
it's more about opening a new market to buyers graduating from a mid sized car,
people who want plenty of room, a bit more punch and four cylinder economy.

I for one hope you continue supporting Ford by purchasing a new I-6 Falcon every few years.