Ecoboost whats the point - Page 6

Franco Cozzo · 21-05-2012, 05:19 PM

Whats the rego price for a 4 cylinder vehicle against 6/8 and 12 in QLD? Also what about 3 cylinder engines like the Suzuki Alto or 2 cylinder engine like the Fiat TwinAir?

Jim Goose · 21-05-2012, 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Damo

Whats the rego price for a 4 cylinder vehicle against 6/8 and 12 in QLD? Also what about 3 cylinder engines like the Suzuki Alto or 2 cylinder engine like the Fiat TwinAir?

8 is about $1100
6 is about $810
no idea on a 4 as i havent owned on in years!

Yellow_Festiva · 21-05-2012, 05:46 PM

I think In NSW rego is based on weight.

I remember dads XF Falcon being classed as a medium sized car as it fitted into that bracket (what were they, 1480kg or something?)... was a while back, could be wrong ;)

Auslandau · 21-05-2012, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brazen

And people forget about the ute, diesel would be the difference between life and death for a ute. The market has shifted to diesel massively. People want to buy the Falcon it's just that Ford hasn't kept up with the market shift. I love my EcoLpi but I know that for Falcon ute to hope to get around 1000 units a month it needs diesel.

If you were standing in front of the board at Ford putting a case for Deisel Falcon forward and the figures at present for sedans sold in Aust were ....

Less than 15% are deisel.
More than 30% are LPG.
More than 65% are 4 cyl

What would you be backing as a safer bet?

Deisel in a Falcon will not happen despite the overwhelming 20 that say here they would buy ....... NEW. More chance of the 2 door coupe coming back.

**Polyal** · 21-05-2012, 06:27 PM

So did you factor commercials into that figure too? Any links for those %s?

TDi territory must be a flash in the pan too, its doing well becuase it smashes the petrol version on fuel consumption and lowers the running cost. I do acknowldge some random article on tdi sales decreasing, the tez must be a freak!

Both the eco and lpg cars are good and do make good business cases and they are the right decisions, but the tdi would suit more people in terms of acceptance and fuel availability

jpd80 · 21-05-2012, 06:30 PM

There's a lot of fans (me included) who would love to point to that engine option or that body stile as a sliver bullet
but sadly, there's always the preposition of regret:
IF ONLY..... (INSERT REASON FOR SALES FAILURE HERE) was changed, everything would be fine.

Ford has been watching the market going away from the Falcon for more than a decade,
perhaps Ford thought it had more time before the last 6-8 months snapped sales in half.

I get the feeling that no matter what Ford does, no matter how much advertising there is,
Falcon is seeing permanent die back of sales, first and foremost in fleet buyer heartland
which means that 75% of Falcon's market is now imperiled by fleet managers decisions.

All Ford can hope to do is stick to their guns and sell what they can, rain or shine.

Auslandau · 21-05-2012, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polyal

So did you factor commercials into that figure too? Any links for those %s?

TDi territory must be a flash in the pan too, its doing well becuase it smashes the petrol version on fuel consumption and lowers the running cost. I do acknowldge some random article on tdi sales decreasing, the tez must be a freak!

Both the eco and lpg cars are good and do make good business cases and they are the right decisions, but the tdi would suit more people in terms of acceptance and fuel availability

No ..... SUV isnt included. The Territory deisel was produced because the opposite is fact Different market segment and if you read it once again it states sedans. I wouldn't like to bet my house on introducing a deisel with figures like this in a sedan Obviously some would take the gamble and go against the trend. It would suit MORE people? Based on ......... ? Mazda 3, Commodore and Camry deisel are flying out the door. There is a niche market for it. It is covered by most manufacturers now but again ...... Based on what is being sold and predicted sales, deisel was not an option

Nothing written for me to quote but please, prove the figures wrong. Take them on face value only if you must but having a chat to those who crunched the numbers, this is basically how it stands.

Franco Cozzo · 21-05-2012, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Goose

8 is about $1100
6 is about $810
no idea on a 4 as i havent owned on in years!

Wow thats pretty expensive, any car here in Victoria is around $500 something for me because I live in a regonal area, $100 less on one car because I have a health care card.

Nikked · 21-05-2012, 07:24 PM

Im going to suggest something, and it might be a bit of a novel concept, might even be Nuclear Physics to some.

Let see how it goes over the next few months before criticizing it.

2011G6E · 21-05-2012, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fiesta_Man69

I really, really wouldn't bring up the Starfire 4 cyl Commodore if you're trying to sing the praises of the EB Falcon...

Just bringing a bit of historical perspective into the "complaints" against the ecoboost Falcon...people forget how gutless cars of the past truly were, what mistakes manufacturers made (although the Commodore Four was perfectly acceptable given expectations at the time...and the stillborn 2 liter XD Falcon would have been much the same).

You have to remember that the Starfire Four was a decent engine at the time...it's just "at the time" no four cylinder made lots of power. A thumb through the new cars section at the back of a 1982 Wheels magazine I happen to have in my hot little hand shows that "normal" fours like the ever-popular Toyota Corolla only put out 54kw. A Gemini put out 50kw, the just-superseded Cortina 2ltr (which isn't listed) put out about 60-odd kw, the Datsun Bluebird 2ltr put out 70kw...so you can see the outputs were pretty low by todays standards. The sixes are even more of an eye opener...Fords 4.1 had 105kw, the Holden 3.3 had 83kw. The V8's boggled the mind...Holdens 4.2 put out 100kw and the five liter 126kw, and Fords 4.9 had 140kw and the "storming" 351 had 149kw...yawn.
Some people will say "ah, but they measured the power differently in the late seventies and eighties...they left all the ancillaries and a full exhaust system"...yes they did...to do otherwise was just a lie...because everyone drives their car around without an exhaust system and no water pump, air con, or alternator or air cleaner fitted. All "the new way" did was reveal what the engines actually produced in real cars, not an engine strapped to a test stand.

The ecoboost puts out more power than any previous attempt at sticking a four into a "standard large Australian sedan". It also shows that makers can do it if they put their mind to it using the latest tech.

2011G6E · 21-05-2012, 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Damo

Whats the rego price for a 4 cylinder vehicle against 6/8 and 12 in QLD? Also what about 3 cylinder engines like the Suzuki Alto or 2 cylinder engine like the Fiat TwinAir?

Four cylinder, looking at my Celica bill from a few months back, is $638. I can quote exactly a Suzuki Alto...our son has one. It's $579. The difference is the compulsory third party robbery they tack on. My Celica has a rego component of $310...same as the Alto...but the insurance part is $280 on the Celica (four seats like the Alto, but possibly it's classed as a "sports" model), and $220 for the Alto.

But more or less, a three cylinder (or two) will cost about the same as a four (the rego part anyway) and a 12 is the same as an eight cylinder. The insurance is where the difference comes in.

...I'm not looking forward to registering our old WB ute with the 253 V8...

tranquilized · 21-05-2012, 07:41 PM

There has been some convincing arguments put forward by both the Ecoboost and Deisel supporters - both have good points.

That FOA Marketing department that everyone around here loves to hate - (usually without knowing what it is a marketing department actually does)well it would have been them, who, after doing loads of market research (hopefully) decided that the ecoboost is the way to go instead of the Deisel. I would like to assume Ford Marketing have more access to information on which to base this decision than our panel of internet forum experts.

So, lets see if they did they're homework properly - the sales will tell the story.

From a personal point of view for what its worth - I'd happily take an ecoboost but would never consider a deisel. The ecoboost would be faster, better weight distribution, it'll rev - just a whole lot more fun basically. (I'm sure I'm not alone in this view)

Deisel isn't a yuppie fuel no matter what VW will have you believe - its a fuel for tight-*******! The big euro makers have publicaly stated Deisel is on its way out to be replaced with lower displacement turbo petrol engines. Merc and BMW have been reducing displacements across their ranges for the last few years.

Seems to me Ford are following in the footsteps of the market leaders.

**ebxr8240** · 21-05-2012, 07:45 PM

The Starfire engine was cut down 202 red motor..
It was NEVER a good engine...Even when fitted in Toyota's..
Yes the main reason other than economy is 4's go well these days ..
With 5 or 6 speed auto's with lock up converters the engine is ALLAYS
in the power band if wanted..
Even the early lasers with 3 speeds won't cut it these days...
If you didn't know there was a forced 4 under the bonnet IMO you would hardly know.. Yes it may rev a little more .. But with good insulation etc it doesn't really matter...
I would say turn in handling would be excellent also...
Think about how often you require full on power ??
In most cases 90% of normal driving would be less than 1/2 throttle..
With decent transmission etc...

Just going by sales and not fitting diesel to Falcon is negative IMO ..
Ford need to play off the front foot rather than sitting back...

I'm looking for tow vehicle for caravan around Aus.. I would rather the Terri have a larger engine for this purpose..

Windsor220 · 21-05-2012, 07:47 PM

Modern diesels have too much crap on them now which makes service costs higher and more unreliable.

I think the reason they have brought ecoboost out is to potentially replace the 6 cylinder in the future. They need to move onto an engine that is shared around the world and if the EB does the job then it may be it. The V8 will still be around for the performance stuff.

**ebxr8240** · 21-05-2012, 07:52 PM

IMO the V6 must come as it can be used in FWD vehicles and shoehorned in smaller cars.. Even a new re-engineered Falcon with smaller wheelbase ???
As much as I like the Falc 6...It's just not divers enough ...

Nikked · 21-05-2012, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by barra240t

Lets play a game, currently, what can you buy in the market that is a rear wheel drive four door sedan 4cylinder?

Mercedes-Benz E-Class and C-Class...BMW's?

naddis01 · 21-05-2012, 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Windsor220

Modern diesels have too much crap on them now which makes service costs higher and more unreliable.

We got our 2010 DPF equiped Mazda 6 diesel serviced at the dealership last week and cost around $250. Expensive?

Fiesta_Man69 · 21-05-2012, 08:36 PM

Ecoboost- what's the point?

Sales, obviously, so let's do a test.

On this Ford fan site, who can honestly say they will buy one as their next car (as opposed to the I6 or LPG)? And I mean buy with your own $$, not leased or choose as a company car...

So who is looking to trade their current Falcon I6, Territory, Mondeo etc and will step in to one and slap down $40K of their own cash? (and forego the cheaper to run but more powerful - and quicker LPG or silky I6 in an XR6...)

You'd want to hope their dozens and dozens on here, else Ford is in trouble..

Auslandau · 21-05-2012, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nikked

Mercedes-Benz E-Class and C-Class...BMW's?

For $35,000???

Franco Cozzo · 21-05-2012, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flappist

Are you really THAT upset that the new EB4 will thrash your car.........

Given that my EL Fairmont Ghia weighs about 1600kg, only makes 162KW of power and probably in the vacinity of 350NM or something similar, to me that Ecoboost looks pretty damn good, it'd be perfectly acceptable if I decided I wanted a new Falcon, which I don't because I already have a Falcon. (though I'd probably go XR6 in manual, if Ecoboost came in manual I'd be sold).

Nikked · 21-05-2012, 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Auslandau

For $35,000???

Nope, but, people still buy them, hence any argument about paying $35k for a 4cly invalid.

flappist · 21-05-2012, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fiesta_Man69

Ecoboost- what's the point?

Sales, obviously, so let's do a test.

On this Ford fan site, who can honestly say they will buy one as their next car (as opposed to the I6 or LPG)? And I mean buy with your own $$, not leased or choose as a company car...

So who is looking to trade their current Falcon I6, Territory, Mondeo etc and will step in to one and slap down $40K of their own cash? (and forego the cheaper to run but more powerful - and quicker LPG or silky I6 in an XR6...)

You'd want to hope their dozens and dozens on here, else Ford is in trouble..

Well it will not take too many to exceed the number of LPGs sold would it?
What new falcon/terrri/mondeo did you buy?

Auslandau · 21-05-2012, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fiesta_Man69

Ecoboost- what's the point?

Sales, obviously, so let's do a test.

On this Ford fan site, who can honestly say they will buy one as their next car (as opposed to the I6 or LPG)? And I mean buy with your own $$, not leased or choose as a company car...

So who is looking to trade their current Falcon I6, Territory, Mondeo etc and will step in to one and slap down $40K of their own cash? (and forego the cheaper to run but more powerful - and quicker LPG or silky I6 in an XR6...)

You'd want to hope their dozens and dozens on here, else Ford is in trouble..

..... As I quietly bang my head against the keyboard ..... I will not buy and many here I would hazard a guess won't either. The target market is those that buy for fleets based on govco standards and those who want a 4 cyl shopping trolley to go from A to B for a family of 5. Many here do not nessesarily fall into these categories being more enthusiasts rather than Camry drivers.

While some might be interested and have stated they are looking into it as a secondary mode of transport (or first), don't expect many to put hands in pockets. It isn't the intended market. Those you asked not to answer are the ones who could be tempted. Why would you exclude such a huge part of the intended market????

jpd80 · 21-05-2012, 08:52 PM

Have to ask whether it's fuel economy driving buyers away from the Falcon (and Commodore)
or whether fleet and private buyers now appreciate well appointed small cars as being more acceptable?

Since "small cars" have grown to just under what used to be mid sized a decade ago, it now looks like
most people are now seeing well equipped small cars like Mazda 3, Cruze, Corrola, Lancer, I30 and even
Focus as better value for money in terms of transaction price and lower running costs.

Sure, you can get an EcoLPI that gives the economy of a small car but with an extra $15,000 on the
purchase price, I'm thinking that a lot of buyers looking at Financing would welcome a smaller car
with a smaller price and very much reduced repayments, is this what's happening with novated leases?

i have a feeling that's exactly what's happening, lowered ownership costs are everything now.

**ebxr8240** · 21-05-2012, 08:59 PM

Yep plus the changeover figure is better .. Say a budget Mazda3 $20k is much easier to finance and less depreciation..

jpd80 · 21-05-2012, 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ebxr8240

Yep plus the changeover figure is better .. Say a budget Mazda3 $20k is much easier to finance and less depreciation..

And if you're on a novated lease, the FBT portion is calculated on the purchase price,
so regardless of running costs, a $20,000 small car will have half the FBT liability of a $40,000 vehicle.
It's that simple, people's hip pockets are hurting and they look for every way to reduce the hurt..

naddis01 · 21-05-2012, 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpd80

Have to ask whether it's fuel economy driving buyers away from the Falcon (and Commodore)
or whether fleet and private buyers now appreciate well appointed small cars as being more acceptable?

Since "small cars" have grown to just under what used to be mid sized a decade ago, it now looks like
most people are now seeing well equipped small cars like Mazda 3, Cruze, Corrola, Lancer, I30 and even
Focus as better value for money in terms of transaction price and lower running costs.

Sure, you can get an EcoLPI that gives the economy of a small car but with an extra $15,000 on the
purchase price, I'm thinking that a lot of buyers looking at Financing would welcome a smaller car
with a smaller price and very much reduced repayments, is this what's happening with novated leases?

i have a feeling that's exactly what's happening, lowered ownership costs are everything now.

While fuel economy may play a part it can't be the main driver otherwise SUV sales wouldn't have done what they have. I think people either want cheaper, well appointed cars (ie small cars) or they want something more practical hence the rise in popularity of SUV's and dual cabs.

Windsor220 · 21-05-2012, 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by naddis01

We got our 2010 DPF equiped Mazda 6 diesel serviced at the dealership last week and cost around $250. Expensive?

Was probably a base service. Often diesels require special oil, regular filter replacements and injector recalibration. Its good when the DPF ***** itself too.

Bossxr8 · 21-05-2012, 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

Yes, Ford is now targeting Beemer & Merc buyers. Hallelujah the Falcon is saved!

Way to add 1+1 and get 495643.

No where in my post did I insunuate they were, just that many people are paying above 6 cylinder prices for 4 cylinders.

Good job twisting my words.

jpd80 · 21-05-2012, 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Windsor220

Was probably a base service. Often diesels require special oil, regular filter replacements and injector recalibration. Its good when the DPF ***** itself too.

Was told by a fleet manager than diesel Hilux and petrol engined utes can use the same oil,
his fleet has done so for years without adverse effects.