All things Solar (merged threads)

[stevejg33]

It's stories like this that make me angry, it not only stitches up the consumer but also the tradies

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/s...-1226619277629

I had my solar installed by Solar Shop a couple of years ago & they also went bust, meaning there is only warranty on the inverters & panels thru the manufacturers, no warranty on the install.
Doesn't fill the consumer with a lot of confidence
In S.A. I think we have had 3 solar companies go bust within a month.

[SmokinXR50]

Originally Posted by poppa smurf

just got a letter from Lumo stating that I have not been receiving my "early bird" payment incentive (pay the account fast and get a discount)

because my account has never been in arrears and always paid on time I am entitled to this discount, ......now it has been backdated and credited to my account

so what this means is that in the 12 months that I have had solar on I have gained well over $1,000 in credit ......after paying all power costs and charges

Hi Poppa smurf,
Being also with Lumo I also got the same letter. My case is a little different in terms of usage to you, in fact I have developed a detailed spreadsheet that analyzes each bill I have received (both electricity and gas) including funky graphs, I will post up some pics shortly (talk about being ****...lol)
In the end they owe me an extra $67.64, at least they were hones enough about it.
I remember when I built my spreadsheet, i kept wondering why the early bird discounts weren't being applied on the months when i was 100% in credit, now I know why.

Thanks,

Chris

[SmokinXR50]

All,
As mentioned in my previous post I had this idea for a while to build a spreadsheet that captures all the data from my electricity and gas bills and also captures all the data coming of my Inverter.

It took me a while as I had to dissect every bit of data on my utility bills including discounts, feed ins, service fees, power usage, the list goes on.
Once I added in the data from my Inverter I got a true picture of what power was being generated from my panels, what power I was consuming, what power was being exported and it also gave me my true daily consumption which was a bit of an eye opener.

Once this was done I was able to produce a myriad of graphs.
I am happy to share these with you as I am also keen to see how well my system is performing over time when compared to others.
Now one thing to remember is that I have based my data on monthly totals, I have not drilled down to a daily usage level as this would take me for ever.
Now to put everything in context!

In my household we are a family of 4 with 3 desktop computers (2 of which are used regularly), home theatre system, Lounge Room TV setup with Foxtel, DVD etc, amp etc…
We also have a zoned refrigerated ducted cooling attached to our ducted heating and also have a small refrigerated system in one of the rooms (it was there when we bought the house).
I have fitted LED lights in parts of the house where the lights get used the most.
I have also fitted dead man switches in most areas of the house that draw standby power.
Having said this I fell of my chair when I worked out my daily average power consumption for the month February.
It was a stinker of a month with several weeks above 33+ degrees and yes my cooling systems were running 24x7.
How does a daily average of 65kw per day sound.

I have had my 3.9KW system installed since later September 2011.
I just snuck in before the Vic PFiT shut down.
Initially I was getting 60c Ex GST, more recently this has been re-negotiated to 66c Ex GST.
I have been able to further reduce my costs by re-negotiating a new contract with Lumo which is saving me in the order of 10-15%.

Anyway time to share some data / graphs. The first should be self-explanatory.
Since I had the system installed I also combined my Electricity and Gas with the same supplier (Lumo).
I am on a monthly billing cycle for Electricity and every 2 months I get a combined Gas and Electricity Bill.

This graph is one of my most important as when I commenced this caper my goal was to reduce both utility bills.
The figures also take into account any discounts and credits.
Therefore the months that I am showing as being in credit is for both Electricity and Gas.
I do have the same graph for Electricity only and of course the number of months where I am in credit for Electricity only is much higher.
If you would like to see other data displayed in a graph format please let me know.
Chances are I have created the graph for it already or can do it quite easily (yes I am a certified geek).



Hope you like it.

Cheers,

Chris

[poppa smurf]

no worries Chris, I'm glad yours is sorted as well.......I'm not up with the spreadsheets, my accountant does that and tells me when I have to get off my backside and do a bit more

my "spreadsheet" is an 8" X 4" notepad with bits of scribble on it that I must decipher as I get time, I get a lot of folks who tell me that I didn't charge them for last times work and pay more, but I figure it all evens up over time

the thing with the early bird discount is not so much about the amounts but the dishonouring of a contract, after all it is they who offer the incentives to entice the consumer in

if I ran my affairs like a lot of these companies I would soon run out of customers but I guess my business is not "essential"

there has been and will be a lot of companies go bust, sadly, but as the prices go down and the profit margins dwindle we lose a lot but the better ones, hopefully, stay

we still have quite a few installers here who regularly come and have a yak with me about the recommendations I have made to various folks, a lot of folks trust me but not the smooth talking sales folks

well done on the graph Chris,......glad it's not my income statement!

anyway I'm dribbling again, time to shut up and get back to work!

[SmokinXR50]

Originally Posted by poppa smurf

no worries Chris, I'm glad yours is sorted as well.......I'm not up with the spreadsheets, my accountant does that and tells me when I have to get off my backside and do a bit more

my "spreadsheet" is an 8" X 4" notepad with bits of scribble on it that I must decipher as I get time, I get a lot of folks who tell me that I didn't charge them for last times work and pay more, but I figure it all evens up over time

the thing with the early bird discount is not so much about the amounts but the dishonouring of a contract, after all it is they who offer the incentives to entice the consumer in

if I ran my affairs like a lot of these companies I would soon run out of customers but I guess my business is not "essential"

there has been and will be a lot of companies go bust, sadly, but as the prices go down and the profit margins dwindle we lose a lot but the better ones, hopefully, stay

we still have quite a few installers here who regularly come and have a yak with me about the recommendations I have made to various folks, a lot of folks trust me but not the smooth talking sales folks

well done on the graph Chris,......glad it's not my income statement!

anyway I'm dribbling again, time to shut up and get back to work!

Fair point Poppa I wouldn't want this graph to be representative of my income either as I would be in serious strife....lol.

I do have data in my spreadsheets pre my solar days although it is incomplete, the short of it is I didn't give a crap back then.
Needless to say my "OH SH^&T" Moment came when I received a quarterly combined bill that was nudging the $2,000 mark.
When you put it in this context the graph looks pretty sweet.
Just have to stay focused on keeping my power consumption down.
You are right in saying that once you go down this path you eventually reach a point where you start caring less..

Cheers,

Chris

[poppa smurf]

not sure we "care less" we still watch what we are doing, my first 12 months were, say, more important than the next however many years simply to establish a base line

but I still take an interest in output to usage

I never got to $2,000 for a quarter thank christ but mine were nudging higher and higher, a few years ago they were $150 - $200 per quarter then they became $200 plus per month

we, thankfully, are lucky in that we can afford them but there are so many out there that simply can't

I'm just glad I'm not raising a nest of youngsters now.......very hard in this day and age with the prices of things

[xisled]

The 3 power retailers I have worked for all use the same account progr, but the program has different features for each company and I'm guessing Lumo is using the same program. All 3 retailers I have worked for, if you have solar you will not get the early discount for paying on time. The reason for this is the program it self does not apply it to the bill and the whole billing side of the program needs to be rewritten.

The current retailer I'm working for, just to get this small issue fixed from the owners of the program the cost is up around a couple hundred thousand. So with all the other issues in the program, it is a very costly.

The problem about not getting bills is a lot on the power distributor side and not sending reads correctly. A lot of people don't relise meter readers are contracted out, to the distributor, and once the distributor gets the read they send it to the retailer. So in short the meter reader does not work for the company you pay your bill to.

[stevejg33]

Originally Posted by xisled

The problem about not getting bills is a lot on the power distributor side and not sending reads correctly. A lot of people don't relise meter readers are contracted out, to the distributor, and once the distributor gets the read they send it to the retailer. So in short the meter reader does not work for the company you pay your bill to.

Call me a little sceptical if you must, bit it seems a little odd that then you are amounting credits the power companies seem to take their time sending out an invoice but when owing them money or you are eating into your credits (eg. over winter) the invoice comes a lot quicker?????

The reason I say this is that, as in my previous post I haven't received a bill in a long time but last winter as I was eating into my credits I received the bill within 2 weeks of the meter being read (last July) & that was my last bill.

Since putting solar on in June 2011 my accounts have been
June, solar installed, 2/3rds thru a billing cycle - first account received in November (5 months after meter read)
Next account - 2 days later (5 weeks after read) & the due date was the same date that I actually received the bill in the post, WTF??
Next 2 accounts - 4 months after read
Last July's account - 2 weeks after read
None since

There is just no consistency. Before solar, my bills were all regular & on time just as my gas bill is currently (with the same provider as my power)

[Stagg]

Originally Posted by stevejg33

Call me a little sceptical if you must, bit it seems a little odd that then you are amounting credits the power companies seem to take their time sending out an invoice but when owing them money or you are eating into your credits (eg. over winter) the invoice comes a lot quicker?????

The reason I say this is that, as in my previous post I haven't received a bill in a long time but last winter as I was eating into my credits I received the bill within 2 weeks of the meter being read (last July) & that was my last bill.

Since putting solar on in June 2011 my accounts have been
June, solar installed, 2/3rds thru a billing cycle - first account received in November (5 months after meter read)
Next account - 2 days later (5 weeks after read) & the due date was the same date that I actually received the bill in the post, WTF??
Next 2 accounts - 4 months after read
Last July's account - 2 weeks after read
None since

There is just no consistency. Before solar, my bills were all regular & on time just as my gas bill is currently (with the same provider as my power)

Second that.

My guess that it is because the more solar there is then the smaller the market and therefore the margins are on selling electricity and gas. Even when people are exporting and importing power and selling at the wholesale rate of power (i.e. 8c here in VIC) the power company is no worse out of pocket then if they were buying from the power stations; however that small amount of power which is used directly from the PV system into the home, is that which is shrinking the retailer market.

Also especially now with a lot of tariffs dropping to the wholesale rate of power there are a lot more people directly using the power instead of exporting, and therefore shrinking the market even more

[Stagg]

Originally Posted by poppa smurf

not sure we "care less" we still watch what we are doing, my first 12 months were, say, more important than the next however many years simply to establish a base line

I found that people would care more lol

It was always interesting to talk to customers after they had their systems installed to see if they were happy with everything or if there were any issues regarding account changes/meter swaps etc. I had a surprising amount of customers who would get a rather dark tone over the phone and often say "I'll be watching my bills ever so carefully..." leaving me frightened thinking if something was wrong they were going to kill me lol

Most people after buying solar will watch their bill ever so religiously, both for produced power, exported power and of course the bottom line. My assumption from the salesperson end of solar PV was that people were wondering if all the hype about Solar PV was actually worth is and it was crazy the amount of people that would buy $10k systems and still be in doubt whether it was worth it! There was never anyone though who was unhappy with solar after they bought it, which was always a relief, I would do a 3 month follow up call and their tone of voice was completely different; it went from dark and murderous, to wanting to buy me a drink at the pub for doing them such an awesome service, it was always good to make that 3 month call


There was one customer though, and it was such an ordeal for the customer, for me, and for the company. He bought a 5kW system and was still skeptical about the benefits of solar. I got a VERY angry call 3 months later, he was making threats to make sure we close up shop and calling a current affair and everything. As you would, I went out there to see the customer face to face and see what he was so p****d off about.

I went out to see him and he wouldn't even let me in the house. He was very stand off-ish and was swearing and everything. Anyway I was this 20 year old on my motorbike wondering why this 55 year old man was screaming bloody murder at me, and he shoved his bill in my face and said he wanted me to personally pay his bill that was $100 more than what it was before solar.

I asked him to show me an old bill, and his power usage in kWh had more than doubled. I showed this to him and he was still stand off-ish. "I bought solar to get a zero dollar power bill. Why the **** do I have a bigger bill??" And I showed him the original quote I had given him with power production figures that matched what his inverter showed. He was on a 31c FiT too.

He began to calm down and I had to explain to him that everything I had promised him I had delivered, the system price stayed the same up until install, the system production matched what I had given him, the FiT through his retailer was the same, everything I had told him what would happen, had happened like a perfect match. However, what was out of my control was how much power he chooses to use, in this case he thought after he bought solar he could use all the power he wanted. Hence his power bill increased.

From then on he watched his power bill consistently Anyway the point of that story was I think he was completely forgetting about his power usage and was just looking for a reason to go anti-solar at that point. I also got a call from ACA and I had to explain everything over a 90 minute phone call and asked that they call him as well. It was such an epic ordeal and I am so glad it only happened once!





I think the anti-solar brigade is constantly running out of reasons to not go solar at this point, the issue now is just the price. It still all boils down to price and payback though; which I hope people will begin to see past in the near future; without money issues I can guarantee there would be more than 3x the homes with solar power now than what there currently is!

[gtxb67]

of course they are going to hold off on sending money out as long as they can
just like they want to be paid as soon as they can

everyone is the same - they want everything, but don't want to give . . . . just human nature really


origin don't seem to be doing it to us, but obviously anyone who is watching their meter for usage is going to know when to ask for the bill aren't they
also, i would also hazzard a guess that most do not want the money straight away - they would want to keep it in the account to cover any bills further down the track or to get a bigger and better cheque each year, rather than a smaller one each quarter that will not mean as much

[poppa smurf]

I asked Lumo about the late accounts and all the feller said was that the system was geared toward a debit and that a credit actually confuses the process

all I know is that I didn't want the accounts before.......but I do now

[xisled]

Originally Posted by poppa smurf

I asked Lumo about the late accounts and all the feller said was that the system was geared toward a debit and that a credit actually confuses the process

all I know is that I didn't want the accounts before.......but I do now

The guy from Lumo has hit the nail on the head.

Everyone says that they do not get bills because of credit, IMO working in the retailer side of things. If the solar billing system worked it would save the company more money than not sending people invoices on time.

Solar is basically the biggest item that customers complain to the ombudsman. (Costing the retailer in Victoria around $300 each time a person goes to EWOV).

Also the extra staff for the phone calls, service orders, billing etc.

I wish the billing for solar worked as easy as the gas billing. I would make my Job 1 million times easier.

[Charliewool]

Ok.. Round 2 in my solar quest..
Had a mob in yesterday that measured my available roof space and reckons they can only fit 17 panels without moving some (a LOT) of my pool solar pipework.
The other companies have all said 20 no problem.. BUT they were going for 2 rows on pitching frames.. This mob stated that they'd prefer only ONE row on pitching frames to ensure no shading. (remembering it's only a 5 deg pitch cliploc roof)
Anyhow their 3 quotes are:
Quote 1/. 17 x 260w Canadian CS6P panels, SMA 5KW 5000TL invertor, Pitching frames & install $10,400
Quote 2/. 17 x 250w Canadian CS6P panels, SMA 4KW 4000TL invertor, frames etc.. $9600
Quote 3/. 17 x 250w Canadian CS6P panels, Renesola Micro-Replus invertors, frames, install $10,700
I think the 3 above sound like pretty good quality, reasonable price? and I liked their honesty about not squeezing 20 panels in??
Opinions please...

[poppa smurf]

sounds reasonable to me

given a 60 cell 250 watt solar panel is around 1.65m X .992m
you could measure your roof and see how many will physically fit

the angle of the panels and the time of year will determine the shading factor and of course must be taken into account

however the actual angle of the stands may reduce shading and could also allow extra panels on there.......only a mockup model will tell you this......I often do this to gauge the numbers

I think any of the 3 choices would see you right.......go "gut feeling" as to who you trust the most to backup the install

[Charliewool]

The 3 above quotes are all by the same company/installer.. Just 3 different options.
I've had quotes from others using cheaper Hanover panels (20 off in 2 rows) around the $9000 mark.

[poppa smurf]

yes!.....I realise that and if you trust them then I cant see you losing on any of the options

however MY choice would be option 1........larger inverter and a little more output

option 3 has its attractions as well

I wouldn't go cheaper panels......this is a long term investment

[Charliewool]

The $300 between the 260w 5kw invertor and the 250w micro-invertors is negligible.
And I'm led to believe micro invertors running AC from each panel is more efficent?
I think decision made!
Thanks Dave!

[poppa smurf]

I dont know much about the technicalities of the micro inverter only to say that what I have heard from good installers is that they are a whole lot better

yep!.....after thinking a bit about it sounds like option 3 is the go......but all are pretty good

[Rastus]

OK, got my second quarterly bill yesterday, Mid Nov to Mid Feb.(93 days)
So, bill comes 2 months after billing period finishes! Who's guessing I'm in credit! (Red Energy)
This one's a bit better than the last one.
Average power usage 2.92 kWh/Day on peak, 4.39kWh/Day off peak = 7.31kWh/day all up.
Average sold back to grid: 15.47kWh/day.
Bill comes in at $278 in credit. Awesome!
This is even with the 10th of Jan price rise of approx 25%...what a rip!
Be interesting how the next 2 bills re during the poor months, and if they eat away all the credit....time will tell.

Originally Posted by Rastus

Finally got my first full bill after having my smart meter installed in August last year. (3 months late!) This is after I rang and chased it up over 6 weeks ago. (Red Energy)
Billing period is mid August to Mid November. Averaged 8.48kwh import/11.15kwh export. Ok for that time of year I guess. We were buying over 16 kwh a day the same time last year.
End result, I would've been in credit to the tune of $119.64, but after having to pay for the new meter's installation ($355.45), subsidised partly by a loyalty credit, I'm only out of pocket $146. Of course I have to pay by the 15th of March, giving me 2 weeks to pay.
Now the silly thing is, I bet I'll get another bill in the mail very soon, for the 3 months ending mid February. That one will be in massive credit I'm sure.

[poppa smurf]

good result mate......as for eating into the credit, well, I see that as a plus, a lot of folks haven't got a credit to eat into

well done

[Charliewool]

Originally Posted by Charliewool

Ok.. Round 2 in my solar quest..
Had a mob in yesterday that measured my available roof space and reckons they can only fit 17 panels without moving some (a LOT) of my pool solar pipework.
The other companies have all said 20 no problem.. BUT they were going for 2 rows on pitching frames.. This mob stated that they'd prefer only ONE row on pitching frames to ensure no shading. (remembering it's only a 5 deg pitch cliploc roof)
Anyhow their 3 quotes are:
Quote 1/. 17 x 260w Canadian CS6P panels, SMA 5KW 5000TL invertor, Pitching frames & install $10,400
Quote 2/. 17 x 250w Canadian CS6P panels, SMA 4KW 4000TL invertor, frames etc.. $9600
Quote 3/. 17 x 250w Canadian CS6P panels, Renesola Micro-Replus invertors, frames, install $10,700
I think the 3 above sound like pretty good quality, reasonable price? and I liked their honesty about not squeezing 20 panels in??
Opinions please...

Update.. Just received an email from above Co.
Telling me they can supply 17 x 290watt panels to get to the full 5kw. Panels are 400mm taller but same width ( Canadian commercial panel)
This with the 5kw SMA inverter $11,000
Still inclined to go the above option 3??

[poppa smurf]

I'd tend to agree with you on that.....

400mm taller?....that's a lot...what size are they specifying?

[Charliewool]

1638mm for 250w, 1954mm for 290w, same width

[poppa smurf]

hell! thats a big panel!

[Stagg]

Originally Posted by Charliewool

1638mm for 250w, 1954mm for 290w, same width

That is a big panel!

Also you mentioned Canadian solar panels, if that brand is Canadian Solar, are you aware that it is a chinese owned and manufactured product and always has been?

[rancidpunx]

3000kwh's notched up today on the inverter since the beginning of December. Pretty happy with a 21kwh per day generation considering the amount of rainy cloudy days since the end of Jan. Its pumping again now though.

[supershifty]

Originally Posted by rancidpunx

3000kwh's notched up today on the inverter since the beginning of December. Pretty happy with a 21kwh per day generation considering the amount of rainy cloudy days since the end of Jan. Its pumping again now though.

I hear ya about the clouds and rain in Brissy of late. Crikey, you've got a big system James! I just checked my total generation since April last year 3542kW, an average of 9.5kW/day. I'm pretty happy with that - suits my needs well. Just had my meter read and am awaiting my first cheque refund from AGL, should be around $1300. They pay me annually.

Cheers!

[Stagg]

Since starting this new job, I've done presentations to four different councils between Horsham and Melbourne for two 15kW systems, one for a 25kW system, and one for a 50kW system. I've managed to build quite some rapport with council workers so far and they are all convinced that these systems are a worthwhile investment to them both financially and environmentally.


I'v had to educate them a lot on the importance that in order for a Solar PV system to be an environmentally worthwhile investment you must understand the environmental impact of all the items and their installation for the system.

For example one of the 15kW systems it is a ground mount system, meaning that for the mounting system concrete must be poured with mounting systems installed within the concrete. The mounting systems are to be sourced from a local supplier, panels recommended are to be Trina (as my choice always is), and the Concrete that will be used is a certain grade aggregate that is 100% recycleable, as opposed to downcycleable.


Speaking to these councils in the next few weeks we should be receiving the letters of appointment. The depth of information I was able to supply to all councils was second to none, three councils had mentioned to me afterwards that they were so surprised with the transparency and wealth of information I had given them, and they were unaware of the other aspects with Solar PV other than country of origin, and the price of the system. These councils have also offered future works with consulting to prepare tenders for other sustainable projects in the future for anything related to Renewable energy, and also any overlooking of non related tenders with a new focus on how sustainably works should be carried out.

I was at a conference last week in rural western VIC for this 25kW system. I had the opportunity to meet with the business development manager of True Value Solar (Nationwide BDM). I had the opportunity to converse with him and actually try to coax out of him a bit more information about TVS and their business model. He had this to say

We are aware that our product is constantly changing. We also however strive to give the highest level of customer service that we can whilst maintaining aggravated buying power.

I then asked him what about where the panels are coming from, what factory, how sustainably, and what about warranty issues?

The customer is not required to be aware about where the panel is coming from, after all they are only looking at the end price, and that is the market that we aim for. the market that you are encouraging as I saw in your presentation, is something that we cannot compare each other on as we are trying to win two different types of consumers

I arked up at him a little and said "You are aware that you have changed business names five times since beginning trading, and you are using one CEC accredited installer to \sign off on systems whilst employing multiple handymen to actually install the systems, in fact one of my customers neighbours had a roof fire from one of these particular systems. Is this not something that is deterring people fom the industry?"

I'm sorry to hear that our customer had an issue however this is an issue for our installers to worry about instead of myself. Regarding changing trading names that is also not something I am in charge of. We are aware of the issues that the industry is facing and instead of maintaining the current structure and operation of the industry, as the driving force with what expectations the customer has of the industry we don't believe that extended warranties or product longevity is something the customer is worried about, as you will see for yourself, it's the price at the end of the day.

Now this is coming from the BDM of Australias largest installer. As for now, I can confidently say that TVS is attempting to drive the industry into means of operation that I see have no interest in the environment at all, and now it's becoming personal with these guys.


I can tell everyone here now, although I'm not meeting householders face to face, I'm still out here doing my best to keep the industry pure. Folks like me are far and few in the industry but we are still here.


I'm going to potentially be at a great advantage in the coming months in the industry, with multiple councils consulting with myself regarding tender structures for large scale projects. I have already given them word that these tender weighted totals will have a minimum on price and an emphasis on sustainability, ethics, and environmental impacts of the projects.

If I can reach every single council in Victoria, and help convince them to structure all tenders to worry less about price than sustainability, I can guarantee, that all cheap solar businesses will be pushed out of the large scale commercial market instantly. I have the opportunity to do so. Call me hot headed, call me arrogant, but I believe in the industry and I'm not going to let any multi million dollar el cheapo dodgy solar mob get in my way or taint the industry, it's time to turn this around!!

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Stagg

Call me hot headed, call me arrogant, but I believe in the industry

i'm not going to call you hot headed or arrogant, just naive.

i don't mean to be offensive, you just seem to think that the dollar isn't a major drive in industry.

people want to be seen to be doing the right thing but when it comes to implementation, the dollar still wins out.