Covid 19 -

[arm79]

Originally Posted by zilo

A politician who seems to understand immunology to a level I haven't wittnessed before.

Doesn't seem like he is delivering an anti-vax message yet an impressive delivery of concern regarding Pfizer, why haven't we heard of this before.

Ahhh... Senator Rennick. The champion of anti-vaxers and conspiracy theorists Australia wide.

Based on your other posts you're normally pretty well informed. I'm surprised you haven't heard of him or aren't aware of the info he promotes.

Check out his website and FB page.

[zilo]

Originally Posted by arm79

Ahhh... Senator Rennick. The champion of anti-vaxers and conspiracy theorists Australia wide.

Based on your other posts you're normally pretty well informed. I'm surprised you haven't heard of him or aren't aware of the info he promotes.

Check out his website and FB page.

I don't do facebook, so that probably explains it.

The video struck me as well informed and eloquently delivered.

[T3rminator]

Originally Posted by zilo

A politician who seems to understand immunology to a level I haven't wittnessed before.

Doesn't seem like he is delivering an anti-vax message yet an impressive delivery of concern regarding Pfizer, why haven't we heard of this before?

If what he says is true then it is indeed a worry.

Novavax (uses a different tech) only just got FDA approval a couple of months ago. The delay has been due to sides effects, including heart inflammation, seen in trials and they wanted more data. So.....how did Pfizer and Moderna get their approvals "warp speed"?

[russellw]

Australia / New Zealand
NSW records 12,908 cases for a 10-day average growth rate of 1.0098.



VIC records 7,502 cases for a 10 day average growth of 0.9613.



Here is the predictive trend graph for four States based on cases since Omicron was identified which, for our purposes, will be taken as December 1st. Queensland passes 1.5M cases in 2022.



New Zealand data goes back to January 15th and the actual line remains below the predictive trend line.

[russellw]

Originally Posted by T3rminator

Novavax (uses a different tech) only just got FDA approval a couple of months ago. The delay has been due to sides effects, including heart inflammation, seen in trials and they wanted more data. So.....how did Pfizer and Moderna get their approvals "warp speed"?

Must be the fault of the aliens/Leprechauns/Yeti/Zombies/insert mythical creature of your choice here.

[russellw]

05/08/22
The current 15 day period of UK data for cases and elapsed mortalities has finished.

There were 402,611 (+78.0%) cases in the period to 10/7 and > 600 more deaths with 2,132 deaths between 11/7 and 25/7 for a CMR of 0.530% - a fair bit lower than the previous period (0.670%).

Thus, in the 360 days (pretty much a full year) since 'freedom day' they have totalled 17,529,654 cases and 54,019 deaths for an overall CMR of 0.308% which is above the 0.303% at day 345. That’s about one third of the adult population infected during the year if we assume that there weren’t people with multiple infections (which we know there were).

Here it is graphed - note that the base column at the end is the 2 week period prior to freedom day.

[arm79]

Originally Posted by zilo

I don't do facebook, so that probably explains it.

The video struck me as well informed and eloquently delivered.

I avoid Facebook as well. Just whenever I do go for a scroll I get hit with reposts of his staff from anti-vax friends. He's like their hero.

I lose interest when I see things like this post he's put up today:

Which part of almost 10 million Australians (most of them jabbed), have caught Covid don’t the authorities understand. The Covid vaccines don’t work. End all mandates.

For someone so well informed they should understand the difference between a vaccine and a cure. It's like saying you should avoid your measles or whooping cough vaccine because they don't work either, you can still catch either even if you've had the shot.

While the rest of the country is looking at moving on he's become a one trick pony it seems. A more refined and relaxed version of Craig Kelly.

Originally Posted by T3rminator

Novavax (uses a different tech) only just got FDA approval a couple of months ago. The delay has been due to sides effects, including heart inflammation, seen in trials and they wanted more data. So.....how did Pfizer and Moderna get their approvals "warp speed"?

OK... A little devils advocate here.

Go back to 2020 when Covid was new and scary and people didn't know what it was or what to do.

The government comes to you and says "I'm sorry, this is beyond us, we cant control it and don't know what to do. Our heath system wont be able to cope with the predicted current outcomes. The solution is a vaccine, but they are at least 5 years off. Until then we have to continue current lockdowns and border control strategy".

Would you have been happy to accept at least 5 years of Melbourne style lockdowns until the vaccine became available? Ruining economies, businesses and peoples livelihoods?

My basic understanding is in an effort to be first to market Pfizer and Moderna threw everything they had a the vaccine. They stopped work on everything else they did and poured billions into developing these things.

Did they cut corners? Probably. Did they get it right? Not entirely. Did their work get us out the doghouse far earlier than would normally be expected? I think we have to believe it did.

Novavax being so late to the market had to be different. They had the benefit of time and hindsight. They have to be near perfect because people won't tolerate the same outcomes as the other 2.

And I very much doubt they can afford the bad PR or financial losses, nor the initial financial requirement to get the thing to market quickly.

Pfizer is an $81b a year company, Moderna $19b. And don't forget Pfizer didn't actually have a licence to use mRNA technology, that belonged to their partner BioNTech, a $19.5 a year company itself.

Novavax is a $1.2b a year company. They are a half a drop in the bucket compared to the others.

[FTE217]

well said arm79.
For the record this is my SM and I find some posters here are just as I read about what carries on in FB/Insta etcetc.....

[T3rminator]

Originally Posted by arm79

OK... A little devils advocate here.

Go back to 2020 when Covid was new and scary and people didn't know what it was or what to do.

The government comes to you and says "I'm sorry, this is beyond us, we cant control it and don't know what to do. Our heath system wont be able to cope with the predicted current outcomes. The solution is a vaccine, but they are at least 5 years off. Until then we have to continue current lockdowns and border control strategy".

Would you have been happy to accept at least 5 years of Melbourne style lockdowns until the vaccine became available? Ruining economies, businesses and peoples livelihoods?

My basic understanding is in an effort to be first to market Pfizer and Moderna threw everything they had a the vaccine. They stopped work on everything else they did and poured billions into developing these things.

Did they cut corners? Probably. Did they get it right? Not entirely. Did their work get us out the doghouse far earlier than would normally be expected? I think we have to believe it did.

Novavax being so late to the market had to be different. They had the benefit of time and hindsight. They have to be near perfect because people won't tolerate the same outcomes as the other 2.

And I very much doubt they can afford the bad PR or financial losses, nor the initial financial requirement to get the thing to market quickly.

Pfizer is an $81b a year company, Moderna $19b. And don't forget Pfizer didn't actually have a licence to use mRNA technology, that belonged to their partner BioNTech, a $19.5 a year company itself.

Novavax is a $1.2b a year company. They are a half a drop in the bucket compared to the others.

Lots of topics in the one response, but I'm not talking about whether it was "worth it". Its about whether relevant information was disclosed. If you don't have the latter then you are just gambling on the first. Here's the thing, the FDA and TGAs of the world don't conduct their own trials, they rely on the manufacturer doing their trials and fully disclosing all the data. You could argue that, had we had all the info, maybe it would have been better to give only the vulnerable that had a lower chance of survival with an infection...rather than force feed it into hundreds of millions of the healthy.

IMHO you are giving some of these organisations way too much credit. I do not for one second believe that they did not see any of these side effects during their trials (and I'm not just talking about the heart issues). So naturally, I ask, what others are buried?

Originally Posted by arm79

I lose interest when I see things like this post he's put up today:

Agree with this. They don't help themselves when they misquote or mispeak on the design and purpose of the vaccines. To be fair, various of our own CHOs have made the same errorneous statement......and so has Fauci and POTUS.

[russellw]

Data valid as at 00:00 GMT August 4th 2022.

37,261 new cases for Australia and 85 deaths so the CMR is 0.127% (é).

NZ reported 6,342 cases and 47 deaths for a CMR of 0.141% (é).

The UK reported 64,120 cases and 1,099 deaths this week for a CMR of 0.792% (é).

138,119 new cases in the USA yesterday and 580 deaths sees CMR at 1.129 (ê).

Other notable points:
Global cases pass 586M;
Azerbaijan passes 800k cases;

Japan (231,597) recorded a new high; those in blue for the second consecutive day and those in red for a third or more consecutive day.

Chile moves above the 90th percentile for the 10 day period while Malta drops below.

Global case numbers are down again to 6,352,886 this week compared to the 7,058,516 last week and the number of deaths also dropped from 15,587 last week to 14,803 this week.

It should be noted that the week to week numbers change quite substantially as extra data comes in which is why the number of cases and deaths for the previous week is considerably higher than we reported last week.

[zilo]

Originally Posted by russellw

Must be the fault of the aliens/Leprechauns/Yeti/Zombies/insert mythical creature of your choice here.

I thought his point was quite valid where your response is ridiculous.

[russellw]

Originally Posted by zilo

I thought his point was quite valid where your response is ridiculous.

No surprise there.

[MITCHAY]

I must admit I have for the most part forgot Covid even exists.

Office has gone back to not much better than lockdown levels. As soon as they said you can work up to 100% from home they were out the door.

Suits our team fine, at least 3-4 of us always turn up. Even bets on who of us gets it next since only myself and another hasn't had it or at least been symptomatic.

Talk as much **** as we like, do what we like, and it's not high tide in the toilets any more

[FoxtrotGolfXray 5.0]

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

I must admit I have for the most part forgot Covid even exists.

Office has gone back to not much better than lockdown levels. As soon as they said you can work up to 100% from home they were out the door.

Suits our team fine, at least 3-4 of us always turn up. Even bets on who of us gets it next since only myself and another hasn't had it or at least been symptomatic.

Talk as much **** as we like, do what we like, and it's not high tide in the toilets any more

Gee, you're lucky. My immediate team, of about 12, would have two to three people absent at any time, due to covid and/or colds/flus/gsstro etc.

Mind you, we have very few of our immediate team working from home on a regular and frequent basis (sans me who's on a week on site, week at home basis). Our broader engineering team, of probs something like 50 to 60 people across two office lications, are all predominantly on site tho, essentially operating in pre-psndemic conditions. Mind you, we've predominantly been doing that throughout the pandemic being an essential service provider.

I think the density of people in the office environment certainly plays a part in it all.

[tweeked]

Originally Posted by T3rminator

So.....how did Pfizer and Moderna get their approvals "warp speed"?

Did you know that Novavax got a $1.6 billion dollar grant from "Operation Warp Speed" to assist in developing its vaccine?

Everything points to governments assisting vaccines to protect the population when we moved forward to living with the virus, and this has overwhelmingly been successful.

Rather than continually posting open questions, tell us how we would be today without AZ and Pfizer, plus the couple of latecomers to our suite of vaccines?

[T3rminator]

Wow. We are now defending manufacturers who may have not disclosed some very important health information...the same information that has contributed to delays in approvals of other manufacturers. Crazy stuff.

Originally Posted by tweeked

Rather than continually posting open questions, tell us how we would be today without AZ and Pfizer, plus the couple of latecomers to our suite of vaccines?

It wasn't an anti vax statement.

Originally Posted by T3rminator

You could argue that, had we had all the info, maybe it would have been better to give only the vulnerable that had a lower chance of survival with an infection...rather than force feed it into hundreds of millions of the healthy.

[russellw]

Data valid as at 00:00 GMT August 5th 2022.

32,611 new cases for Australia and 90 deaths so the CMR is 0.127% (-).

NZ reported 5,492 cases and 17 deaths for a CMR of 0.142% (é).

152,249 new cases in the USA yesterday and 849 deaths sees CMR at 1.128 (ê).

Other notable points:
Global cases pass 587M;
Asia passes 172M cases;
France passes 34M cases;

Japan (253,392) recorded a new high; those in blue for the second consecutive day and those in red for a third or more consecutive day.

No countries move above the 90th percentile for the 10 day period while Germany drops below.

[FoxtrotGolfXray 5.0]

I'm into day 4 (halfway mark) of my iso and I thought I'd share my experience so far with covid, for those who have not had the pleasure.

I had minor symptoms prior to testing positive: predominantly a minor sore throat.

Woke up day 0 after a bad night's sleep, feeling sore, runny nose and just 'off'. That was Wednesday.

Thursday saw chills, more runny nose, soreness in my knees and hips and a lack of energy.

Yesterday saw the nose starting to clear up, but the phlegm causing coughing and a minor headache as a result. Body was still a little sore but not as bad as Thursday. Similarly, the soreness was not as bad as the previous day.

Had the sweats last night but woke up this morning with further clearing of the nose (apologies for details but blowing nose is now green instead of clear), less phlegm in the throat, soreness almost gone and just a congested head feeling.

Got up today for my first shower at a normal time since day 0. Even got dressed in normal clothes instead of pj's and dressing gown.

Whilst I hadn't not wanted food over the last couple of days, I wasn't interested in it either. I just didn't feel like getting anything prepared, but once I did I didn't have any problems eating it. Today, I'm hungry and actually looking forward to eating. I didn't completely lose taste or smell but it was certainly dulled. I put that down to the congested head.

After having the shower and hanging a load of washing on the line, I need a rest, so clearly the fatigue is still hanging around.

My daughter went to work today and text me to tell me that she's suffering a bit of brain fog, which I have noticed in me as well.

Having lost all hearing in one ear a couple of years back, I already have balance issues, but I have noticed today that my balance is worse again. Need to be careful as a simple change in head direction can see me finding my feet. Certainly won't be climbing any ladders any time soon.

So there you have it. My summary of covid experience at the halfway mark through covid isolation.

[zilo]

Originally Posted by arm79

For someone so well informed they should understand the difference between a vaccine and a cure. It's like saying you should avoid your measles or whooping cough vaccine because they don't work either, you can still catch either even if you've had the shot.

.

Wooping cough is caused by bacteria so not a virus.

Measles vaccination has a 97% success rate. ( A well proven viral treatment)

Current Covid vaccines have far less, they mitigate the number of deaths, but people still get sick and become infectious.


Like every politician, you have to filter the bull**** through the swamp.

The point of having vaccine mandates is to prevent transmission by vaccinated people and it appears to not be stopping vaccinated people from transmitting the disease....I think that is his point.

[Mulva]

I thought there were several reasons for the vaccine, which also included reducing the impact on health system. That, and of course Bill Gates rolling out 5G trackers in our bodies on behalf of the cabal of shape-shifting lizard people.

[arm79]

Originally Posted by T3rminator

Lots of topics in the one response, but I'm not talking about whether it was "worth it". Its about whether relevant information was disclosed. If you don't have the latter then you are just gambling on the first. Here's the thing, the FDA and TGAs of the world don't conduct their own trials, they rely on the manufacturer doing their trials and fully disclosing all the data. You could argue that, had we had all the info, maybe it would have been better to give only the vulnerable that had a lower chance of survival with an infection...rather than force feed it into hundreds of millions of the healthy.

I don't think there are alot of topics there. Your current stance is one of hindsight and ongoing experience. But I'm asking you to go back to the beginnings of covid when there was little knowledge of the virus and the prevailing wisdom of the time.

At that time the world felt the best way forward was a vaccine. The vast majority of Australia felt the same. Remember them demanding vaccines arrive immediately so lockdowns could end and the flack ScoMo got for not ordering enough at the right time.

The main arguments I've seen against the vaccine are:

• We dont know whats in it
• We dont know how its made
• It takes 10 years to develop and release a vaccine normally. How can it be done so quickly now.
• Theres not enough testing been done
• The results are dubuous because its been done so quickly
• We dont have enough information to make a decision

To answer all those questions and provide the information people now want takes time. Let's say it took 5 years to develop a vaccine that FULLY satisfied all the criteria and provide all the info to give definite consensus and direction, like the one you suggested.

So the question I always ask, which rarely gets answered, is would you have patiently waited the required 5 years in a Melbourne style lockdown until a vaccine was developed in its normal full process? One that provided all the answers everyone desires?

Originally Posted by T3rminator

IMHO you are giving some of these organisations way too much credit. I do not for one second believe that they did not see any of these side effects during their trials (and I'm not just talking about the heart issues). So naturally, I ask, what others are buried?

Pfizer has apparently shipped 3.6b doses of their vaccine and you'd have to assume that near to all of them have been injected. One of the things that frustrate me is the way this vaccine type is talked about 99% of the recipients should be thankful they are alive. Every dose is high chance death sentence.

I know they saw side effects, it's no secret. Go back to the pages for these vaccines when they first came out and there was a list of side effects beyond heart issues. Sure there were others added as the program progressed, but there was already a list.

It was the reason I avoided being an initial adopter. I wanted to wait and see what happened.

I just think in some cases they aren't given the credit they deserve. These companies came up with a largely effective and very safe with minimal risk vaccine in a short amount of time.

Everything in medicine is a risk at some level. It's why I had to sign a form saying I accept I might die while getting my wisdom teeth surgically removed. Insulate the doctors from something completely out of left field unexpected.

People are largely willing to accept that risk too. They do it every day with every new medication they take.

I suppose, look at it this way... Millions upon millions of women suck down millions upon millions of contraceptive pills every day without caring that they are 1000 times more likely to develop a clot and 30 times more likely to die from that clot than from clots caused by the AZ vaccine.

I was started on a new for me medication about 15 years ago that triggered red welts all over my body apart from my neck up and wrist down. I had to wear long sleeve shirts and jumps for 3 months until it went away. These doctors had prescribed this drug over 1000 times, but I was the first with this supremely rare and completely unexpected reaction.

Ultimately you shouldn't be angry at the drug companies, they only made the thing. I there is blame to be assigned it should be directed to the government for allowing the use of a "faulty/risky" vaccine.

Originally Posted by T3rminator

To be fair, various of our own CHOs have made the same errorneous statement......and so has Fauci and POTUS.

Even if that's the case it doesn't excuse people from ignoring the dictionary definition of a medical "solution" that has been the same for over 200 years. A failure of common sense.

If they said the sky was green do you just believe them when you know its just stupid to even consider so?

Originally Posted by zilo

Wooping cough is caused by bacteria so not a virus.

Measles vaccination has a 97% success rate. ( A well proven viral treatment)

Current Covid vaccines have far less, they mitigate the number of deaths, but people still get sick and become infectious.


Like every politician, you have to filter the bull**** through the swamp.

The point of having vaccine mandates is to prevent transmission by vaccinated people and it appears to not be stopping vaccinated people from transmitting the disease....I think that is his point.

That's not the point, but you already know that.

Since when do vaccines prevent people from spreading something? As you said they mitigate the chances of something bad happening, but people can still become sick and infectious.

I have the flu shot every year. A couple of years in a row I felt a bit down and had the sniffles. It was likely I had the flu, but the vaccine did its job. And its likely when Mum, Dad and sister experienced the same thing I probably gave it to them.

Whooping Cough vaccine recipients can still catch, spread and suffer symptoms of the infection. All it does is lower the risk and likelihood.

The covid vaccine my not be as effective as some of our other traditional ones, but they still serve the same purpose. Or is only the mandating of vaccines make them less effective?

P.S. A little late to the party. Been a bit busy.

[russellw]

Data valid as at 00:00 GMT August 6th 2022.

28,479 new cases for Australia and 88 deaths so the CMR is 0.128% (é).

NZ reported 4,885 cases and 24 deaths for a CMR of 0.143% (é).

106,674 new cases in the USA yesterday and 454 deaths sees CMR at 1.128 (-).

Other notable points:
Global cases pass 588M;
Europe passes 217M cases;
Asia passes 173M cases;

No countries recorded a new high; those in blue for the second consecutive day and those in red for a third or more consecutive day.

No countries move above the 90th percentile for the 10 day period while Italy drops below.

[zilo]

Originally Posted by arm79

Since when do vaccines prevent people from spreading something? As you said they mitigate the chances of something bad happening, but people can still become sick and infectious.

Measles vaccine as you mentioned is not mandated and is highly contagious as is tuberculosis...in fact no vaccine in my living memory was ever mandated.

So why is the Covid vaccine mandated again ?




I am not taking one side or another in the vaccine debate, in fact I am more vaccinated than anyone I know, just seeing an inconsistency in policy and seeing as how you attacked the youtuber politician complaining about it I am curious at your answer...(apart from a personalized attack on him)

.

[KobiXR6T]

Originally Posted by arm79

Ultimately you shouldn't be angry at the drug companies, they only made the thing. If there is blame to be assigned it should be directed to the government for allowing the use of a "faulty/risky" vaccine.

As you've stated, given the circumstances I wouldn't even hold blame against them for allowing it..

My personal issue is that they weren't just allowed. They were promoted.. and then mandated.

Safe and effective. Somewhat and kind of...

The disclaimer you signed as part of your surgery, you were made very aware of the risks and the dangers, some options, and then made the choice to proceed. I think the point T3 is making is that somewhere between the drug companies and the regulative authorities, these risks were well known and not to all be mild, but were very poorly communicated and rarely weighed up against the individual risk of not using them.

Any other topic we would agree that not one size fits all, but in this it's different.

[T3rminator]

Originally Posted by arm79

To answer all those questions and provide the information people now want takes time. Let's say it took 5 years to develop a vaccine that FULLY satisfied all the criteria and provide all the info to give definite consensus and direction, like the one you suggested.

I remember all the experts on here lecturing us that it was not rushed and no short cuts were taken. Oh, and all side effects come out in the first 2 weeks of administration apparently. So harry hindsight shouldn't be in the discussion.

Originally Posted by arm79

So the question I always ask, which rarely gets answered, is would you have patiently waited the required 5 years in a Melbourne style lockdown until a vaccine was developed in its normal full process? One that provided all the answers everyone desires?

The suggestion is either one or the other. Its not. I've given one possible scenario. I'm sure plenty of smarter people can think of others.

Originally Posted by arm79

It was the reason I avoided being an initial adopter. I wanted to wait and see what happened.

So you didn't really trust what was being presented in the first place. "Initial adopters" were just a larger trial in your eyes?

Originally Posted by arm79

Everything in medicine is a risk at some level. It's why I had to sign a form saying I accept I might die while getting my wisdom teeth surgically removed. Insulate the doctors from something completely out of left field unexpected.

People are largely willing to accept that risk too. They do it every day with every new medication they take.

Correct. At the dentist, you had all the relevant information given to you to make a choice. The point here is, if you are not given all the information, you can't make a credible risk calculation.

[KobiXR6T]

We also have to consider that this topic is not binary.

On one hand we have people who advocate that the methods applied are/were the best and our government is our saviour acting purely and only with our best interests in mind; for our health.

On the other we have people who are skeptical of all things government. Everything is a ploy to bend us over and turn us into a communist country.

At both of these extremes I see a large emotional/logical bias. Heavily blinded by ones own beliefs and a willingness to push said belief onto everyone else. How is everyone so dumb not to see that this is what's happening?? etc.

I personally don't give two rats if you believe one or the other, or somewhere in between... but when you start name calling, shaming, belittling and pushing your beliefs onto others I feel that you have lost touch with your humanity. Don't care if it's cars, churches, schools, or medical treatments. A little respect goes a long way.

And like most things also, the actual truth will often lie somewhere in the middle.

[russellw]

Data valid as at 00:00 GMT August 7th 2022.

22,616 new cases for Australia and 32 deaths so the CMR is 0.128% (-).

NZ reported 3,518 cases and 18 deaths for a CMR of 0.144% (é).

13,529 new cases in the USA yesterday and 25 deaths sees CMR at 1.128 (-).

Other notable points:
Global cases pass 589M;
Brazil passes 34M cases;
Japan passes 14M cases;

No countries recorded a new high; those in blue for the second consecutive day and those in red for a third or more consecutive day.

No countries move above the 90th percentile for the 10 day period while France drops below.

[five 7]

Originally Posted by KobiXR6T

On the other we have people who are skeptical of all things government.
And in New Zealand......
https://youtu.be/ENEUktOrQV8
https://youtu.be/RgnEJXdV_Qk
Just a example of Cindy's "Be Kind" as we were told ad nauseam.

Everything is a ploy to bend us over and turn us into a communist country.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9rsxFaq6Ig&t=99s

They like to call it progressive politics.

[arm79]

Originally Posted by zilo

Measles vaccine as you mentioned is not mandated and is highly contagious as is tuberculosis...in fact no vaccine in my living memory was ever mandated.

Not totally correct. The measles and whooping cough vaccine, among others, is essentially mandated. I'm sure you've heard of the "No Jab, No play" policy in effect at both federal and stricter state levels. A mandate by another name.

Originally Posted by zilo

So why is the Covid vaccine mandated again ?

Because both the feds and states decided it should be. I didn't say it was right, nor do I agree with it. Never have.

Originally Posted by zilo

seeing as how you attacked the youtuber politician complaining about it I am curious at your answer...(apart from a personalized attack on him)

I'm not complaining about him, I just think he's a d*ck. For every video he releases like that, yes informed and eloquent, he has a half dozen FB posts that play fast and loose with the truth, facts and statistics that seem to play to his out there supporter base. If you'd spent anytime following his moves you'd see what I mean.

It's hard to respect someone like this and what they say when it seems they are playing games to maintain a personal relevance.

Originally Posted by KobiXR6T

Safe and effective. Somewhat and kind of...

I'm talking about overall statistically, not personally or anecdotally. I know yours and T3rminators personal experience differs greatly to mine.

Originally Posted by KobiXR6T

The disclaimer you signed as part of your surgery, you were made very aware of the risks and the dangers, some options, and then made the choice to proceed.

Originally Posted by T3rminator

Correct. At the dentist, you had all the relevant information given to you to make a choice. The point here is, if you are not given all the information, you can't make a credible risk calculation.

The difference here is I feel like I was. I did my research and watched what was coming out of places like the US and countries who were getting the vaccine first. I actually learnt of the Bells Palsy and heavy menstruation side effect before I learnt of things like Myocarditis.

But it turned out that while Bell's Palsy was observed during trials in people given the vaccine, it was also observed in people given the placebo. And the rate observed was within the otherwise standard national rate. Which is why it wasn't considered an actual adverse reaction. And I've since read of explanations to reactions such as Myocarditis.

When I booked Dad and I in for our jabs I had to go through an electronic form confirming family and personal history and confirming i understood the risks and side effects. When I fronted for my jab I went through the same thing again on paper, which had the prevailing major and minor side effects listed at the time, and had to sign off on it.

I also recognise and accept that there were potentially side effects not listed or expected. And that can happen with any medication.

Maybe my experience was different to yours.

When I broke out in hives that time I wasn't even warned it could happen because no one had ever seen it happen and it wasn't listed as a typical side effect. But regardless the minute risky unknowns wouldn't have stopped me anyways.

Originally Posted by KobiXR6T

I think the point T3 is making is that somewhere between the drug companies and the regulative authorities, these risks were well known and not to all be mild, but were very poorly communicated and rarely weighed up against the individual risk of not using them.

I completely understand and accept what he is saying.

All I am saying is there is zero regard given to the time that is normally required to adequately collect and report on the tests, trials and results to give provide a person clarity with the desired informed opinion. And would that person have been happy to wait that time, given government controls, until these adequate results became available.

The other thing that is not considered is the scale of the operation. It's speculation to say that the risks were well known but not communicated. For all we know the risks were considered acceptable and inline with any other medication.

If vaccination X has a 1 in 1,000,000 major adverse reaction rate, but only 500,000 doses are delivered in a year, then it will never be heard of. But in this case we were attempting to vaccinate the entire country, and the world for that matter, in a matter of months. Of course that reaction rate would quickly pile up to noticeable and staggering numbers that would be immediately communicated and scrutinised in our age of instant media and information sharing.

But in reality it could be within the bounds of acceptable for the regulations.

Originally Posted by T3rminator

The suggestion is either one or the other. Its not. I've given one possible scenario. I'm sure plenty of smarter people can think of others.

Sounds like you're trying to say I'm dumb.

But, yes and no. In reality there are 3 answers. Yes I am happy to take to take the risk, yes I'm happy to wait the extended development time or no I refuse to take it because I haven't been offered enough information, which then circles back to the former.

Given what the states did to their residents the options and answers are quite limited.

Originally Posted by T3rminator

So you didn't really trust what was being presented in the first place. "Initial adopters" were just a larger trial in your eyes?

I trusted what was being presented. But I also wanted to see what came out of the mix once it was being used in Australia given our guidelines and reporting are by my understanding stricter.

Plus I'm never an early adopter of anything. The person who buys the new model of a car is crazy to me. And I suppose I was personally lucky that I could leave it till later. Which in the end became moot because it wasn't available to me until much later than I planned.

Anyways... Enough from me. I'm out!

[KobiXR6T]

Originally Posted by arm79

Because both the feds and states decided it should be. I didn't say it was right, nor do I agree with it. Never have.

Plus I'm never an early adopter of anything. The person who buys the new model of a car is crazy to me. And I suppose I was personally lucky that I could leave it till later. Which in the end became moot because it wasn't available to me until much later than I planned.

Anyways... Enough from me. I'm out!

Good response arm.

I don't even know what the point that is trying to be made is anymore.

All the data I saw coming out of other countries was that the risk predominantly increased with age and co-morbitidy. The countries that struggled the most throughout the pandemic were aging, high density populations.

This was never officially stated by our government/health officials or media until well into it, post mandates.

I entirely agree that hindsight is a very useful tool, and that time wasn't something that we had working in our favour. I would argue that the lockdowns we had were unnecessary and that the damages to health and wellbeing outweighed the risks of the virus itself for many.

If we had a vaccine that actually significantly reduced transmission of the virus I would be able to begin to justify the actions that have been taken, but given that they don't it becomes a very difficult.