All things Solar (merged threads)

[prydey]

i have 11 panels on the north face, and 9 panels on the west face. to have them all on the north face was going to result in some panels have shadows from a/c unit which would drag the whole string down for the duration of the shadow, so it was unavoidable to split the panels to the north and west faces.

so not sure if poppa is thinking of something else, as he is pretty clued in on this solar game, but i see many houses with panels on 2 faces.

as for noticing other houses with much smaller systems, you'd be surprised at how many people don't actually work things out correctly, or just simply can't afford a bigger system. i'd say there is a fair percentage of people who have solar who are still getting a reasonable sized bill each quarter.

edit-just re read what you said about splitting the system and realised you were talking about different structures so disregard everything i just said ;-)

[poppa smurf]

I was referring to the statement about a set of panels on one roof of the house and another set on the shed

two sets of panels on the one roof would be fine as it is still on the one structure

to split the system onto two roofs would have to involve two inverters...well as I've been told anyway

in my previous post I should have said if you wanted to place one set of panels onto the house roof and another set on to the shed and tie the two into one inverter at the house .....then I am sure this cannot be done

[poppa smurf]

Originally Posted by MDS69

^^^ Hi Dave. I can't remember if it was this inverter or another one the solar man had in his range but it can do 2 strings of panels. Well the way he explained it you could have two segments and if one string got shaded it wouldn't pull down the system.

I just had another read and think about this statement "if one string got shaded it wouldn't pull down the system!"

this is a worrying statement as it is of course wrong.....any shading on any panel in any string or system will affect the rest of the system exponentially.

I cant chant the exact percentage as my memory is poor but it is something in the region of 10% shading = 30% loss of the total system the numbers may be greater but it is significant

[Stagg]

Originally Posted by MDS69

OK my AFF Solar Brains Trust friends.
We had the solar sales consultant come around over the weekend. He presented a good sales pitch and seemed to know his stuff. Didn't over sell by bagging the oppositions just stated his companies history and future. After looking at different options he recommended a 5.5kW system comprising 22 x 250W Renesolar panels and a Fronius inverter. We would need to go to smart metering apparently and I wasn't to keen on that but that is another story for another day. Anyway the quoted price is $12,504.00 inc GST for a tiled 2 storey roof inc meter install. We apparently qualify for a Diamond Energy contract of $0.20/kW feed in for 2 years.

By going over our electricity bills we are using an avg of 22kW per day. This is averaged out over the year.

Now at the time of the quote as mentioned above we were recommended a 5.5kW system. This unfortunately will not fit on the northern apsect of the roof (side of the house) and the recommendation was to slpit 11 panels on the north and the other 11 panels on the western aspect which is the street front which I am not happy with.

Now considering the above and after sleeping on it and talking to the wife since the quote can anyone reply with why if the western aspect is considered good enough for half the system then why couldn't the eastern aspect (rear of house) be just as a good an alternative.
Another question is whilst driving around the local area with similar size houses with what you would think would be similar enery usage why do 4 out of 5 houses have between 6 and 12 panels yet our salesman strongly recommended 22 panels. Is it just the sales aspect and likely commission or are the other installs undersized and just what the homeowners could afford.

Now an alternative is we can install 3.25kW worth of panels by putting 11 on the big roof facing north and 2 panels on the garage also facing north. Is this a decent size system considering our avg daily consumption.

I would stay right away from renesolar, a few pages back I posted a photo of inside the Renesola factory, none of the factory workers wearing any protective gear, and handling the solar cells with bare hands; their solar cells are some of the most contaminated in the industry. I still stand by the brands Trina, Yingli, Suntech, and SunPower.

regarding splitting the arrays 11 panels one side and 11 on the other, the beauty is that you will still be making a reasonable amount of power in the afternoon, because the sun will be in the western sky, beating down on those western facing panels; also meaning you can feel less guilty about turning the TV on when you get home from work.

If you're unhappy about placing panels on the western roof, or unhappy about the size of the system, it is also worth doing an energy audit on your home, pretty simple stuff. Have a look at all of your appliances, see what kin of power consumption they use; have a look at any old appliances that might need replacing soon, and when you do buy new appliances, make your purchases based on those with the lowest kWh consumption. You'll be surprised. When I lived in Perth I got my power bill from $150 down to $50 by just replacing old appliances and made no compromise to my lifestyle. By doing this you can reduce your kWh consumption, meaning that you need less panels to break even, meaning you may need less or no panels at all on the western roof, and can get away with just 11 panels also meaning you have a lower upfront cost. Energy audit = win win!


The salesman is correct about not recommending 11 panels, this is a common mistake that without explained properly gives the industry a bad name. When you buy solar, more often than not, your electricity tariffs increase. When you undersize a system, and then your tariffs increase, what can happen is those savings from an 2.75kW 11 panel system, will be undermined with the increased cost of electricity, meaning you see no savings at all; which leads to those believing that 'solar is a scam'. So the salesperson was spot on with the system sizing; go too small, you don't get any return on investment at all!

Also, why people have systems of sizes from 6 to 12 panels could be any reason. They might be a single retired pensioner, or they might use just as much power and be mislead by a dodge salesperson. Every household is different. One week I sold someone 2 x 250W panels to be installed on a caravan, later that week I solar a 15kW system to someone who operated a screenprinting factory out of his garage! everyone is different.



Essentially, here is the step by step process I would go through:

Step 1: Go through every single appliance in your home with a fine tooth comb and see what can be used less, replaced, or not used altogether.

Step 2: by calculating how much power can be saved through an energy audit, you can see how many less panels you require.

Step 3: ask for an alternative quote to suit your new power habits.

Step 4: ask for a quote with some of the panels that are my recommendations lol

Step 5: Up to you which way to to. My recommendation is just that; change habits if possible, and if possible, go for a smaller system with premium panels.

[MDS69]

Originally Posted by poppa smurf

you cant split the system, it would have to be two installs with separate fuse boxes and wiring

Thanks everyone for your replies. I just realised I may have misled Poppa Smurf with my comment about putting 11 on the 2 storey roof and 2 on the garage. The garage is attached to the house and is where the meter box is. It is not a separate building just a lower roof at the front of the house.

[poppa smurf]

ah! in that case you wont have a problem.....should still be the same structure

although we had a case here not long ago where the sparky determined the structure as separate even though it was attached.....council agreed and the install could not go ahead, only one we've had around here though

hopefully common sense will prevail and you can install

what sort of longevity/performance warranty comes with the system you enquired about and did you ask if you could get any claims dealt with locally?

[sgt_doofey]

Originally Posted by prydey

as for noticing other houses with much smaller systems, you'd be surprised at how many people don't actually work things out correctly, or just simply can't afford a bigger system. i'd say there is a fair percentage of people who have solar who are still getting a reasonable sized bill each quarter.

We were in that category. We couldn't afford to get a bigger system installed. I would have loved to have been able to afford a 3kW system at least, but only had enough money for the 1.5kW system.
For me, it wasn't a matter of getting rid of electricity bills but to reduce them so the financial pressure wasn't as great. On our last bill, we were $250 in credit due to the amount we pay monthly to cover electricity bills and the reduction in our usage due to using solar instead. Winter is our big killer as we're an all electric house and our only heating is electric.

[poppa smurf]

Originally Posted by sgt_doofey

We were in that category. We couldn't afford to get a bigger system installed. I would have loved to have been able to afford a 3kW system at least, but only had enough money for the 1.5kW system.
For me, it wasn't a matter of getting rid of electricity bills but to reduce them so the financial pressure wasn't as great. On our last bill, we were $250 in credit due to the amount we pay monthly to cover electricity bills and the reduction in our usage due to using solar instead. Winter is our big killer as we're an all electric house and our only heating is electric.

if you find yourself in this situation, not able to afford the system necessary to cover your needs, at the initial time of purchase, and before the install, of the system, say to the sales person that you will be applying for a greater P.V.S.E.G. number

this number (photo voltaic small energy generator) is a license from the government for you to generate and sell (hopefully) excess power back to the grid

the number initially applied for is the maximum generative amount you are stuck with when claiming your credits

I.E. if you apply for and install a 3.5 KW system but later expand to a 5 KW you will lose your initial 3.5 KW credits (breach of contract)

however if you initially apply for a 5 KW system but only install a 3.5 KW then later expand to a 5 KW all is peachy in the FIT stakes

[SB076]

Originally Posted by poppa smurf

if you find yourself in this situation, not able to afford the system necessary to cover your needs, at the initial time of purchase, and before the install, of the system, say to the sales person that you will be applying for a greater P.V.S.E.G. number

this number (photo voltaic small energy generator) is a license from the government for you to generate and sell (hopefully) excess power back to the grid

the number initially applied for is the maximum generative amount you are stuck with when claiming your credits

I.E. if you apply for and install a 3.5 KW system but later expand to a 5 KW you will lose your initial 3.5 KW credits (breach of contract)

however if you initially apply for a 5 KW system but only install a 3.5 KW then later expand to a 5 KW all is peachy in the FIT stakes

Damn wish I knew that earlier, I have an older system (probably been up for about 5 years, anyway its a 2.1 KW system and it costs around $9000) I too wanted to go for a bigger system but the costs were quite high compared to what we see today. I was thinking of adding another system (separate to the existing one) however it will still feed in through the meter box and I was worried about losing my feed in (need to check how long that's lasts as I believe I am currently being paid $0.66 per KW)

[poppa smurf]

I reckon mine is around 25 years.....but like everything that has already changed once......

as far as I'm aware the FIT from the government does not change unless you break the contract then it is dropped completely

the "top up" we get from retailers will vary enormously and can be withdrawn

[xisled]

Originally Posted by SB076

Damn wish I knew that earlier, I have an older system (probably been up for about 5 years, anyway its a 2.1 KW system and it costs around $9000) I too wanted to go for a bigger system but the costs were quite high compared to what we see today. I was thinking of adding another system (separate to the existing one) however it will still feed in through the meter box and I was worried about losing my feed in (need to check how long that's lasts as I believe I am currently being paid $0.66 per KW)

It will depends on the state you live in. Papa talking about SA. Because your getting 66 cents, I am going to guess you’re in Victoria or NSW. Basically if you upgrade panels/inverter or add another system on your will lose your current FIT. This applies to NSW and VIC only.

In VIC and NSW you could not say you wanted to go 5kw, and install a 3kw system then upgrade to 5kw later. In VIC if you are on the PFIT, TFIT, SFIT and you upgrade your system, you will drop to the current FIT of 8 cents.

[poppa smurf]

yep! shoulda mentioned my references mostly pertain to South Australia.......but I'm pretty sure the PVSEG quoted figures would go everywhere

just make sure you enquire about it first.....if the answer is no then nothing lost if yes then a lot to gain

[Stagg]

Originally Posted by xisled

It will depends on the state you live in. Papa talking about SA. Because your getting 66 cents, I am going to guess you’re in Victoria or NSW. Basically if you upgrade panels/inverter or add another system on your will lose your current FIT. This applies to NSW and VIC only.

In VIC and NSW you could not say you wanted to go 5kw, and install a 3kw system then upgrade to 5kw later. In VIC if you are on the PFIT, TFIT, SFIT and you upgrade your system, you will drop to the current FIT of 8 cents.

To further clarify here, if you add a second entirely standalone solar PV system onto your home, you don't lose the FiT at all. However the second system must be entirely off grid rather than grid connect with battery back-up.

Most people are still ignoring the fact that these FiT rates all over Australia are only current and in place for the next few years, there will be a tipping point that will start in the next 2-3 years when existing PV customers with premium tariffs will lose their premium rates and the rates will drop to as they are currently for new PV customers (wholesale electricity tariff), and I am sure of it that there will be a lot of people jumping up and down when they lose these premium tariffs too, potentially a lot of people taking down panels.

In the next few years before tariffs drop, is most definitely going to be the best time to go retrofit battery backup systems, to beat these premium tariff cutoffs!

[poppa smurf]

ah! standalone.....totally different scenario......pretty much open slather here

[Stagg]

Yeah that's true, but honestly, most people who bought solar justified the reasons to go solar because of the payback which was greatly due to premium tariffs; although none of these premium tariffs are permanent, nor were they ever permanent. What worries me is in the next few years when people on a 68c feed in tariff all of a sudden have their tariff drop to 10c (which it will in the coming years) I think that a lot of people are going to take down their systems.

[poppa smurf]

nah! I, and many others, will go stand alone.....most will look at generating the needs of the household then shut the system down so as to not let the companies have free power.

I'll do this until I look at all my options.

[supershifty]

Originally Posted by Stagg

Yeah that's true, but honestly, most people who bought solar justified the reasons to go solar because of the payback which was greatly due to premium tariffs; although none of these premium tariffs are permanent, nor were they ever permanent. What worries me is in the next few years when people on a 68c feed in tariff all of a sudden have their tariff drop to 10c (which it will in the coming years) I think that a lot of people are going to take down their systems.

I won't ever pull my panels down, although I'll cry tears of blood if govco drops the FIT anytime soon -I'll be happy if it stays just 2 more years, then it's paid for itself.

Sure I'd like to see the FIT's stay longer, but I don't think they will - that's the one part of solar that is not sustainable.

Cheers!

[SB076]

Originally Posted by xisled

It will depends on the state you live in. Papa talking about SA. Because your getting 66 cents, I am going to guess you’re in Victoria or NSW. Basically if you upgrade panels/inverter or add another system on your will lose your current FIT. This applies to NSW and VIC only.

In VIC and NSW you could not say you wanted to go 5kw, and install a 3kw system then upgrade to 5kw later. In VIC if you are on the PFIT, TFIT, SFIT and you upgrade your system, you will drop to the current FIT of 8 cents.

Correct I am in Victoria, so based on the above I think I will stay with the current setup. Unfortunately when i was purchasing the large larger units were quite expensive (next system up from memory was $15K 3 KW) which was out of my budget

[Stagg]

Originally Posted by supershifty

I won't ever pull my panels down, although I'll cry tears of blood if govco drops the FIT anytime soon -I'll be happy if it stays just 2 more years, then it's paid for itself.

Sure I'd like to see the FIT's stay longer, but I don't think they will - that's the one part of solar that is not sustainable.

Cheers!

Cheers man, keep them up for me!

[ute83]

Originally Posted by Stagg

Yeah that's true, but honestly, most people who bought solar justified the reasons to go solar because of the payback which was greatly due to premium tariffs; although none of these premium tariffs are permanent, nor were they ever permanent. What worries me is in the next few years when people on a 68c feed in tariff all of a sudden have their tariff drop to 10c (which it will in the coming years) I think that a lot of people are going to take down their systems.

Here we go again.

http://www.dpi.vic.gov.au/energy/env...feed-in-tariff

[poppa smurf]

yeah! mate......my contract states my F.I.T. is guaranteed until around the same.

supplier contribution has actually increased as competition increases.

any new installs will be subject to whatever is around at the time!

[comagutsa]

or you could be in WA and if you wernt lucky enough to get the 47c and 27c for 10years or what ever it was lucky ..but everyone else gets to enjoy the whole 8.6c for every unit you sent to synergy and then they sell it back to you at 22.8c unit .. i love making stuff and buying it back at a higher price ..and then the power company goes we are not making any money lets put power prices up more ...WTF they are making 14.4c from every unit of power they get from us solar people from every solar system in the synergy area
how many thousands of homes have solar in that area and what would the average system be ? between 2-3kw maybe ..thats alot of extra power they are getting for nothing

[poppa smurf]

that analogy can be used for any purchase you have made, or are about to make on any product one could think of.

"greed is good"......profit is king, shareholders demand ever increasing dividends!

[Stagg]

Originally Posted by ute83

Here we go again.

http://www.dpi.vic.gov.au/energy/env...feed-in-tariff

I would still call that in the next few years; bear in mind, every incentive that has been put in place for Renewable Energy has been cut back prior to the finish date, even though it's in writing I still believe that the premium tariffs will be cut back in the next few years. The reason, is because it has happened multiple times in the past.

[Stagg]

Originally Posted by comagutsa

or you could be in WA and if you wernt lucky enough to get the 47c and 27c for 10years or what ever it was lucky ..but everyone else gets to enjoy the whole 8.6c for every unit you sent to synergy and then they sell it back to you at 22.8c unit .. i love making stuff and buying it back at a higher price ..and then the power company goes we are not making any money lets put power prices up more ...WTF they are making 14.4c from every unit of power they get from us solar people from every solar system in the synergy area
how many thousands of homes have solar in that area and what would the average system be ? between 2-3kw maybe ..thats alot of extra power they are getting for nothing

Keep in mind that there is logic behind buying your power at a cheaper rate; that 8.6c is the wholesale rate of power which is what the coal or equivalent power stations are charging synergy for their power. Fair or unfair, that's the logic of the wholesale feed in tariffs as to why they are that cheaper rate.

[ute83]

Originally Posted by Stagg

I would still call that in the next few years; bear in mind, every incentive that has been put in place for Renewable Energy has been cut back prior to the finish date, even though it's in writing I still believe that the premium tariffs will be cut back in the next few years. The reason, is because it has happened multiple times in the past.

A few is three years. The LEGISLATION is for another 11 years. Stop talking *****.

[Stagg]

Originally Posted by ute83

A few is three years. The LEGISLATION is for another 11 years. Stop talking *****.

Legislation was also for the 5x STC multiplier to remain at 5x until the year 2015. It's now at 1x multiplier.

Legislation was also for the Solar homes And Communities Package (SHCP) rebates of $8000 to be indefinite. That was eliminated in 2009.

Please, understand that there is credibility to what I say based on experience and history of changed government legislation. It has happened on every previous incentive without fail. It is legislation to be there until the year 2024 and my opinion is tariffs are as guaranteed to remain at the premium rates just as much as the previous incentives were guaranteed to remain in place, which did not happen.

[Spinner77]

Anyone here running an electric hot water system off solar electricity?

My understanding is that in Melbourne at least, the rules prevent you from having a conventional electric hot water system if natural gas is available; but you can get an exemption - how, I don't know.

I am not attracted by the dedicated thermal solar hot water systems, on account of cost and stories of problems. I am unsure whether the heat pump solutions are any good, or, as I fear, a technology in progress, e.g. I have seen reports of problems with noise.

However, I am worried about the likely price hikes down the road, as China's appetite for our gas increases. It is easy to predict that the Federal Treasury and Productivity Commission will say everyone will be better off by forcing consumers to pay the world price for gas.

At present we have a natural gas hot water system (only 136 litres, but we get by). How much power, in general terms, would a conventional electric system of that size be likely to use?

[sgt_doofey]

Originally Posted by ute83

A few is three years. The LEGISLATION is for another 11 years. Stop talking *****.

Just remember that government can repeal or amend any legislation they put in place in the first place...

[Spinner77]

http://www.smh.com.au/business/carbo...508-2j7df.html