Ford is Looking Back - XR8

[Luke Plaizier]

Hey, look, another 'XR8 should be....' comment. It's either that or 'can't be done'.


Lukeyson

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by prydey

xr8 was slower than its baby brother and slower than its cross town rival and apparently this is the reason for its demise??

it seems to me ford just can't take a trick with its so called fans.

True the GT is a special case, but it still proves that when they get the engine right the sales increase.

Even though I love the FG XR8, I would still never buy one, and if I did Id be swapping that engine out quick smart.

If you cant understand why the bolded means that a performance V8 doesnt sell then perhaps you might not quite get why people buy V8's.

With regards to the italics, that line is getting very long in the tooth. Your dead right, if Ford cant keep its strongest supporters "happy" then what do they have exactly? So yes, Holden does alteast make an effort to keep its supporters happy.

And look, those supporters show their support by buying the bloody things, hence the sales ratio.

So the line that you cant please Ford fans is BS. The fans are the ones that care about how the XR6 has been bastardized, how yet again like someone else mentioned, hello 1983 and the V8 is killed and in 1991 they acknowledged it was a mistake..but they do it again.

So I have lots of passion for Ford, but I am not going to sit around and say, "ah well...Ford knows what I want, ill just buy a EB Falcon..."..um no..wrong Ford.

[TMC]

Originally Posted by Windsor220

They may not of had much power back then but they were on par with the Holden offerings so performance wasn't an excuse.

True. But nothing in the Holden range excited me either back then. I remember back in 95 looking at a 92 V8 Calais to buy. Took it for a drive and what a gutless wonder that thing was. My hotted up ZK 351C was an absolute animal compared to the Calais. It must have had about double the pickup of the Calais. But yes, all the V8's were 165kW unless you had a performance version which then qualified you to have a 185i badge if it was a Holden. Wooowwwww.

[TMC]

Originally Posted by eb2monty

Respectfully you are wrong; no V8s were made in 1985.

I stand corrected.

Maybe I'm thinking of a Street Machine special build they did in 85. I remember some sort of competition with one.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Polyal

Even though I love the FG XR8, I would still never buy one,

a common theme amongst all those screaming for a XR8.

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by prydey

a common theme amongst all those screaming for a XR8.

...You are deliberately ignoring the reasons why I wouldn't...and it has nothing to do with money.

If you must know my plan is to actually buy a FG XR8..but as I mentioned, the 5.4 wont be in their long, coyote or roadrunner will be replacing it and the 5.4 will be at the bottom of the ocean...

Why would I buy a car new when I dont like what it offers?

And again you ignore the real substance of my posts, but want to play tit for tat with things that have nothing really to do with the topic.

[TMC]

Whatever a new XR8 is if it comes back, should be a manual (6spd ZF optional) with a V8 that roars when it's opened up. A bit of induction roar would be nice too, and even if you could feel the engine roar through the body of the car would be nice. You've got to feel at one with the beast, not cocooned in your loungeroom going really fast.

That's what people want from a V8 performance car. That's what makes them fun. Traction control and all that is good, but it must be easy to turn all those electronics off and enjoy the rear wheel drive experience a bit.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Polyal

...You are deliberately ignoring the reasons why I wouldn't...and it has nothing to do with money.

.

there are always reasons. the engine is no good, the brakes are too small, the interior is too basic.... the list goes on. that is why there is currently no xr8 on the market.

i'm a realist. hoping and waiting for ford to put another v8 engine in, and spend all that money on R & D, is not being real.

ford have streamlined their product range and culled all those that weren't viable. they have decided FPV will sell the v8 models.

[Polyal]

Point is they have culled and culled..to the point where even though those cars where not selling in high number it all added up to more falcons on the road. Those cars where not selling because they did not meet the requirements/expectations of the market place, or the market had simply moved past what Ford was offering because they were not spending anything on attracting people to the models...

So who do you want to blame, the company for not making what people want or the people for buying something that fitted there needs.

Its making it a very easy decision for Ford NA to look and say..nope..not worth it. Perhaps its part of the plan and all these alternatives that Ford are looking for at the moment are nothing more than study cases to work out what the Mondeo/Taurus will offer.

Giving up on the XR8 is essentially giving up on the Falcon. That sounds wild but if the Falcon offers nothing over the Mondeo then why have the Falcon at all?

If EB4 Falcon offers the same level on efficiency than the mondeo then why offer the mondeo? Why have they not put the TDi in the Falcon? its obvious that private buyers love it in the Tez.

Part of it IMO is because they have already gone so far to tarnish the Falcon that its going to be nigh impossible to come back from this.

And that is the crux as to why I get bloody annoyed at Ford just throwing their hands up and putting up the towel.

[Crazy Dazz]

It’s clear that some people don’t understand the attraction of a V8, and that’s fine, to each their own, but rubbishing that which you can’t understand is the sign of a very small mind.
Yes, an N/A Coyote would not be that far ahead of your standard I6, and would be streets behind a turbo. So what? By definition, once you get to this level, you’re not buying a car for practical reasons, you’re buying it because of how it makes you feel.

For those claiming that a basic V8 would take sales away from the I6, the irony is palpable. The I6 is dead. It’s a tragedy because the current generation is undoubtedly the best engine ever built in Australia, but it can’t last. We WILL swap over to the “modular” V6, which could actually be a good thing if it means local production of both V6 & V8.

Unless there is a major rethink at Ford, the only way of “saving” the “Falcon” is to move to the D3/D4 platform and hopefully we can assemble an Australianised version locally. Hence the Falcon will be based on the Taurus, and the Territory on the Explorer. This will mean V6 and FWD for most models, but will also open up the options for AWD, V8, and V6 Ecoboost.

[Kieron]

Originally Posted by TMC

Whatever a new XR8 is if it comes back, should be a manual (6spd ZF optional) with a V8 that roars when it's opened up. A bit of induction roar would be nice too, and even if you could feel the engine roar through the body of the car would be nice. You've got to feel at one with the beast, not cocooned in your loungeroom going really fast.

That's what people want from a V8 performance car. That's what makes them fun. Traction control and all that is good, but it must be easy to turn all those electronics off and enjoy the rear wheel drive experience a bit.

FG XR8 was a 6 spd manual with 6 spd auto as an option of course, it certainly could have done with a better exhaust note though.

Other than that, I don't really have a problem with the FG XR8.

It's clear what was going on, the XR6T appeals to the younger person in general, the XR8 appeals to the older guy in general. The older guy typically has more disposable $$'s so jack the XR8 up to FPV/GS and ask more $$'s for it, leaving the cheaper XR6T for the younger set.

Add to that, FoA's thinking was to make their range appear greener (ie fuel efficient) which is the correct move so it made sense to drop the XR8 and shift it to FPV.

[blk6t]

Two questions, IF the XR8 does make a return:
1) Who will know about it and really care (excluding the few on here that may buy one)?

2) Would you all prefer to see the money that is possibly allocated for the development of the XR8, instead used to rebate the GS and reduce the RRP down to XR6 Turbo price range?

Food for thought...

[Dr Smith]

Originally Posted by Luke Plaizier

I just ran some interesting numbers off www.redbook.com.au.

2012 VE II SS $49 790
2012 FG II XR6T $48 235

2012 VE II SS-V $57 290
2012 FG II GS/XR8 $57 990


I don't think there's any reason why a GS, simply rebadged as an XR8, with NO other changes, wouldn't be a positive step. The pricing, as we can see, would be competitive with it's natural opponent. And to say that it would steel sales away from the GS is just dumb - it IS a GS sale.

BADGES and STICKERS. That's ALL it would take to revive the XR8. Period.


Lukeyson

Is that rrp? because I'm certain '12 SS-V can be had for far less.

[Polyal]

1) So all the XR8/V8/G8 owners suddenly passed away or are now on pension?

2) no..the price is not why I dont want/need a GS

If Ford where to spend $10M (whatever..Miami was $40M but it was half a new engine all together) to make the coyote NA work in the Falcon and it worked giving the potential for further sales for the next 4 years what do they lose if it doesnt work??

$10M or a bit more...kind of chicken feed when you factor in what is going to happen when the Falcon gets canned for not selling enough in the first place. Now is a time to be taking risks, not waiting for another 24 months until EB and LPi start selling and making money..it will be to late.

[MAGPIE]

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

Yes, an N/A Coyote would not be that far ahead of your standard I6, and would be streets behind a turbo. So what?

How on earth did you come up with that little pearl of wisdom

A Coyote has 112kW advantage on the I6 and 47kW advantage on the I6T, that should be enough to get over the extra Falcon weight and at least match the XR6T.

The Coyote is underated at 412hp just like the Miami is.

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by MAGPIE

How on earth did you come up with that little pearl of wisdom

A Coyote has 112kW advantage on the I6 and 47kW advantage on the I6T, that should be enough to get over the extra Falcon weight and at least match the XR6T.

The Coyote is underated at 412hp just like the Miami is.

Exactly, there is nothing wrong with that engine in stock form. I wonder what its specs are in the F150?

[Smoke Pursuit]

As I have already said just use the supercharged V8 detuned for XR8... Or better still move the rest of the line up up in the chain.

1) FG2 XR8 - 315 KW, 19 inch alloys standard, XR front bar etc. Ford badged.
2) FG2 GS - 335 KW, 19 inch wheels, 4 pot brembos, gt interior, XR front bar with air ducts (no foglamps). FPV Badged.
3) FG2 GT - 351 KW, 20 inch wheels, 6 pot brembos, GTP interior, R spec suspension, special FPV front bar (show black edition)?. FPV Badged.

Delete GT-P and GT-E (they only sell a handful of each).

They would probably double their v8 sales if not triple them if they had the above mixture. Also add XR8 ute and Super Pursuit option.

[banarcus]

XR8 is dead. Long live the XR8.

[Luke Plaizier]

Originally Posted by Dr Smith

Is that rrp? because I'm certain '12 SS-V can be had for far less.

Yes, RRP.

2012 VE II SS $49 790

2012 FG II XR6T $48 235

2012 VE II SS-V $57 290

2012 FG II GS/XR8 $57 990


All Auto's too.


Lukeyson

[FPV GTHO]

Originally Posted by MAGPIE

How on earth did you come up with that little pearl of wisdom

A Coyote has 112kW advantage on the I6 and 47kW advantage on the I6T, that should be enough to get over the extra Falcon weight and at least match the XR6T.

The Coyote is underated at 412hp just like the Miami is.

XR6T and GS do similar performance times, an NA Coyote won't match them.

[Djrystofer]

Originally Posted by DASH GT

Delete GT-P and GT-E (they only sell a handful of each).

That's like them 'deleting' the GTHO back in the day

They weren't made to make masses of money.

[P6LTD351]

Originally Posted by Nikked

FPV is Tickford.

Incorrect. FPV (Prodrive) purchased Tickford. They are not the same. Mitsubishi bought out Chrysler Australia back in the day. Mitsubishi is not the same as Chrysler. Tickford had prestige and exclusivity. Tickford is known around the world.

[1TUFFUTE]

Originally Posted by DASH GT

As I have already said just use the supercharged V8 detuned for XR8... Or better still move the rest of the line up up in the chain.

1) FG2 XR8 - 315 KW, 19 inch alloys standard, XR front bar etc. Ford badged.
2) FG2 GS - 335 KW, 19 inch wheels, 4 pot brembos, gt interior, XR front bar with air ducts (no foglamps). FPV Badged.
3) FG2 GT - 351 KW, 20 inch wheels, 6 pot brembos, GTP interior, R spec suspension, special FPV front bar (show black edition)?. FPV Badged.

Delete GT-P and GT-E (they only sell a handful of each).

They would probably double their v8 sales if not triple them if they had the above mixture. Also add XR8 ute and Super Pursuit option.

see to me and from what ive seen and heard...this seriously sounds and looks like in the real world the only combo that would actually appeal in all models and equipemant levels......looks very appealing and lots of options...and they get to make use of that great sc engine......only wonder if 20s are a little big but id imagine the allready slightly softer setup then the competitors would do rather well

[DanielXR8]

Originally Posted by blk6t

Two questions, IF the XR8 does make a return:
1) Who will know about it and really care (excluding the few on here that may buy one)?

2) Would you all prefer to see the money that is possibly allocated for the development of the XR8, instead used to rebate the GS and reduce the RRP down to XR6 Turbo price range?

Food for thought...

The reason why the XR8 was rebadged as an FPV GS was so that they could put a premium on it. To do point 2 is the complete opposite of what they were setting out to achieve and given the GS sales have achieved. That said if GS sales ever tanked, I would expect it to be retired and the XR8 looking suspiciously like a GS would reappear.

GS is XR8 with a more premium price, sticker pack and a starter button.

[DanielXR8]

Originally Posted by 1TUFFUTE

see to me and from what ive seen and heard...this seriously sounds and looks like in the real world the only combo that would actually appeal in all models and equipemant levels......looks very appealing and lots of options...and they get to make use of that great sc engine......only wonder if 20s are a little big but id imagine the allready slightly softer setup then the competitors would do rather well

That would be a great range, but would FPV make more money?

When I see a GS I am under no illusions that I am looking at anything but a tarted up XR8. Thing is what they add on costs for the starter button and sticker pack, is no where near as much as what they ask for it over an XR8 from the FG 1 days. If enough people pay the premium for the XR8... I mean GS, then why would FPV bother?

I have no doubt from the comments made in the early days of the GS joining the permanent lineup and the internal debate at Ford and FPV, that if it didn't meet sales targets internally, it would have quietly disappeared again and the familar XR8 would have been rolled out in its place - sans stripes, FPV badges, starter button and cast off GT wheels. The 315 donk wouldn't have changed though.

[Smoke Pursuit]

Originally Posted by Djrystofer

That's like them 'deleting' the GTHO back in the day

They weren't made to make masses of money.

Maybe not then but now its all about making money and staying allive...

GT-P and GT-E are waste value... FPV makes their money out of selling more volume, not expensive chrome packs.

Ford needs an XR8... FPV needs an XR8 too... how many people progress from an XR8 to an FPV or an SS to a HSV... Many... its all about getting them in the door to start with. Many people here have started with XR8s and upgraded to an FPV on the next purchase.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Luke Plaizier

You seem to be actively promoting in here to stop any sort of XR8 from ever being made again.

Why because I took the time to explain the reasoning behind Ford's decision not to do it?
Don't shoot the messenger mate, stick to the facts and stop playing the man.

2 negative Points countered - price and impact. DON'T sell the Xr8 for $10k RRP less than the GS, because that's where the XR6T lies. The SS can live there - it's not supercharged.

Ford ran the numbers on XR8 and GS being sold singly and combined,
and they decided not to do it, your beef is with them not me.

Next you'll be telling me that the SS-V is RRP at $48k too.

Not SS-V, let's stick with Holden SS since it's on special:

2011 SS Commodore $41,990 drive away - LINK
*$1,000 less than 2012-plated!
*6.0 litre Generation IV Alloy V8 engine
*6-speed manual transmission
*Upgrade to automatic transmission for only $2,000
*Sports suspension
*18" alloy wheels#
*Touch-screen Holden-iQ System with Enhanced Bluetooth®'
*USB and iPOD® compatibility˜
*Rear spoiler
* Electronic Stability Control (ESC)

[Luke Plaizier]

Cool, points taken jeopardeighty. You're not saying anything, you're just repeating words from someone else. Gotcha.

I don't mean to sound disrespectful, but this 'Ford ran the numbers' does need to be substantiated, as much as I usually do trust you. I can appreciate that they now cannot justify developing an NA XR8. But I need a lot more convincing, as an interested observer, that Ford have run numbers and determined that the sale of a GS and XR8 as the same car with different badges at the same price would result in a reduction in the TOTAL number of sales. If you are privvy to those details, given your quite excellent research skills, then they would serve a worthwhile purpose here.

I think the debate regarding the current SS being a direct competitor for the XR8 is historical. In an NA XR8 world I might have agreed with you. In a GS/XR8 S/C world the game is quite different. In my opinion anyway.

Remember, the SS started out with an SV8 junior, and the SS was then the XR8 match. But in the VE update the old SV8 became the new SS, and the old SS became the SS-V. So I think the SS-V to XR8/GS comparison is more than appropriate.

And showing previous model year runout sales against RRP's is not exactly an apples to apples comparison. Have you got any equivalent XR6T 2011 MY runouts? Or were Ford more vigilant and only produced vehicles to order to cut out excess capacity and therefore sell all vehicles with the correct profit margin? Selling all vehicles at a profit is generally something that many people at AFF tend to consider a Ford positive trait.

Hey, for the record, all is cool by the way, I think this is a healthy debate. But I'm pretty convinced that simply rebadging the FPV GS as a Ford XR8 and selling in parallel would be a positive move and not result in any lost sales - and me highlighting your posts is in no way intended as an attack on your person. ;-)

I look forward to your next response oh worthy debater.


Lukeyson

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by DASH GT

Maybe not then but now its all about making money and staying allive...

GT-P and GT-E are waste value... FPV makes their money out of selling more volume, not expensive chrome packs.

Ford needs an XR8... FPV needs an XR8 too... how many people progress from an XR8 to an FPV or an SS to a HSV... Many... its all about getting them in the door to start with. Many people here have started with XR8s and upgraded to an FPV on the next purchase.

I dont particularly agree with the XR8 being SC, regardless of how the financials would work, but I do agree wholeheartedly about "blooding" people with the XR8. I would be one of those people.

[jpd80]

One thing you can be assured of, there was a fairly intense internal debate regarding the XR8,
those discussions were centred about exactly what car was needed and initially, the plan was to have
a S/C XR8 and FPV GT but FPV made an eleventh hour call to include a GS leaving Ford with no XR8.
There was also another lengthy internal discussion regarding the 5.0 Coyote crate engine as an XR8
but from what I gather, that decision was vetoed, there is still a lot of support internally for
either NA 5.0 XR8 or 315 S/C XR8 with 335 GS and 350 GT, it just depends on what FPV wants to do.

Personally, I would like to see Ford go after Calais by adding a 5.0 Coyote G8E
and after SS (and SS-V) with 5.0 Coyote XR8 (and Luxury pack) which would preserve FPV.

The big problem is money and unless Ford gets their volume sales going justifying other cars is hard.