The Death of QANTAS

[SteveJH]

Originally Posted by brydie76

But that's straying off-topic. Today should be interesting at the FW hearing. Read on Twitter from one of the big news companies that the tribunal may request documentation (sent to a catering company) that could show Qantas' actions were pre-meditated. That could throw a few issues up for QANTAS in regards to getting on the tribunal's side.

Wouldn't it depend on whether it was an actual *change* to deliveries or if it was just asking about the *possibility* of a change?

[brenx]

Originally Posted by SteveJH

Sure, but all these workers have done now is to throw away their jobs. If QANTAS isnt flying, these people don't have jobs.

They should have thought about that.

Companies forget without the little people there is no company. The ones at the top loose touch as generally they've never worked at the lower end of the scale.

For the small amount of investment in employee happiness Qantas could have been still functioning without disruption.

[brydie76]

Originally Posted by SteveJH

Wouldn't it depend on whether it was an actual *change* to deliveries or if it was just asking about the *possibility* of a change?

Either could show pre-meditation. Definitely a letter stating "don't supply us with anything from xx date" is going to look worse than "we may not require anything from xx date depending on yy occurring" though.

There was no way this was a snap decision by the Board though, I imagine a good 12-24 hours of planning would have needed to go into it. Letting codeshare partners and airports know, external 3rd party suppliers (eg the caterers), etc. I personally don't see any issue with that, I think the issue is if this letter was sent a few days to a weeks ago explicitly stating not to supply any goods from a certain date and time onwards.

[SpoolMan]

Originally Posted by AMGC63

I seriously doubt the TWU's agenda here is safety......

Make no mistake they play the most active roles of enforcing safety in the workplace, remembering the workers are the Union.

Originally Posted by Nikked

When CEO's give themselves payrises, whilst ignoring workers,

But, the hand that feeds...

True the worker wants/needs job security, whilst corporate executives continue to take large percentage pay rises.

[gtxb67]

Originally Posted by Full Noise

What’s the medium house price in those countries?

bearing in mind in the philippines the exchange rate is around 40-1, but the cost of living is probably 5-1


our house here is valued at around $350,000. the equivalent house there would be 6,000,000php which is $150,000aud, but with the cost of living adjusted is $750,000
$400,000 more expensive to buy in manila

Originally Posted by Full Noise

What’s the tax rate in those countries?

value added tax is 20%, 10% less than our gst

Originally Posted by Full Noise

What are the interest rates in those countries?

the interest rate can be up to 28% - a little more than ours

Originally Posted by Full Noise

What’s the cost of electricity in those countries?

well that all depends if you are the one piggy backing your neighbours line or if you are the one being piggy backed. either way, it is very expensive for the average person

Originally Posted by Full Noise

What’s the cost of water in those countries?

bottled drinking water is maybe $1aud. it may convert to up to $5, but the thing is they have to buy drinking water from a sealed bottle - they do not drink from the tap. the cost (although i do not know what it is), is irrelevant if you cannot drink it

Originally Posted by Full Noise

What’s the cost of gas in those countries?

if you mean gasoline, it was a similar price to ours if i remember correctly, which means very expensive to them - either way, since not many can afford a car, the price of gas is irrelevant

Originally Posted by Full Noise

What’s the cost of maintaining a motor vehicle in those countries?

very minimal (providing it is just labour and not new parts you need), because since not many can afford a car, a lot of trade type works are done by back yard tradies. once again, if you cannot afford a car, then the maintenance is irrelevant

Originally Posted by Full Noise

What’s the cost of educating children in those countries?

much more expensive than us, i believe. put it this way, in manila the educated kids speak english, not tagalog - go though manila and find me a child fluent in english

Originally Posted by Full Noise

What’s the cost of maintaining your health in those countries?

services are relatively cheap (i "believe" medications are not, but i am not going to interogate my mother in law any more, just to prove to her how bad her country of birth is) - however, there is no medicare and seriously, would you rather get sick there or here
and by the way, don't get injured over there. the ambulance will have no hope of getting to you in time. people may think our service is bad, but ours is great - theirs is likely to take you to heaven

Originally Posted by Full Noise

What’s the cost of basic foodstuffs in those countries?

a can of beer (330ml) costs 39php. that translates to around 90 cents to us. once the 5-1 cost of living comes into it, it is very close to $5.00


please don't go one about how good people in third world countries have it. they smile because they have their priorities right. maybe it is because they can see just how dumb the western world is, and they realise that soon we will all be equal

when that happens, they won't be better, but there is nothing like dragging down the wealthy is there

[Nikked]

Quite
A
Nightmare
To
Australian
Shareholders

[Jim Goose]

Alan Joyce on ABC 24 right now....

"Business leaders have given me thier support"..... sure why not, who else would other CEOs support but their own kind?

[SpoolMan]

Can we keep the thread within the topic of an airline, the cost of a can of beer or bottled water will only add/separate topics within the thread.

The cost of living and international comparisons best have its own thread.

[Rodp]

I have a good mate who's a baggage handler at the airport. Over the last 20 years his pay has almost halved (that's not taking CPI into consideration) and is currently on ~15/hour. He's being offered a 3% pay rise while taking shift loading away - essentially cutting 33% of his wage since he does a lot of overtime to supplement his income.

I don't know about you, but I'd be pretty peeved if I was in that predicament after working 20+ years for the same company.

[Jim Goose]

AIPA media release...

Published on Saturday, 29 October 2011 20:23

Alan Joyce’s decision to ground the entire Qantas fleet is nothing short of a maniacal overreaction, the Australian and International Pilots Association said today.

AIPA Vice President Richard Woodward said the move was pre-meditated, unnecessary and grossly irresponsible.

“Alan Joyce is holding a knife to the nation’s throat,” Captain Woodward said.

“No one predicted this – because no one thought Alan Joyce was completely mad. This is a stunning overreaction. It is straight-up blackmail.

“I knew he was trying to kill Qantas, but I didn’t know he wanted to do it this quickly.

“This is a grave and serious situation and the board should move to sack Mr Joyce immediately. This is the saddest day of my 25 years with Qantas.

“AIPA’s industrial action has been limited to making brief, positive in-flight announcements and wearing red ties. In response to this, Mr Joyce has now locked out every pilot working for Qantas. This is nothing short of crazy behaviour.

“Mr Joyce is stranding thousands of Qantas passengers all across the globe so he can engage in his mad game of one-upmanship. All so he can pursue his delusion that Qantas should be an Asian airline, instead of an Australian one.

“We believe this action is unlawful and we are currently seeking legal advice. He has locked out short-haul 737 pilots who aren’t even involved in any action at all.

“This would have been planned months in advance. Let’s be clear about this: Mr Joyce would have planned to strand thousands of Qantas passengers all across the globe months ago.

“To ground your entire fleet – when doing so is completely unnecessary – is not the act of a sane and reasonable person.

“He has snatched his ill-deserved millions on Friday and grounded the airline on Saturday. It’s just tragic and unnecessary.”

[TruBlu351]

Originally Posted by Adamz Ghia

People who complain that Joyce gave himself a pay rise have no idea about the corporate world. Qantas have to pay this to keep him, it's what he's worth. If another company offered you higher pay to defect to them would you stay? Doubt it.

While unions have their place and do some good, they are thugs in this instance. Unions helped kill off Ansett in the end, no lessons have been learnt...

He's not worth $10 as a CEO. He literally does not have the skills and ability to run a premium airline. His budget airline apprenticeship has him trying to run a premium airline the only way ne knows how.

He was handed the reigns on an undertable deal with the previous CEO, and the guy that should be running Qantas today, is actually the new Virgin Aust CEO!

......have you noticed how they have taken on a premium type makeover in this last year!!

[DJR-351]

Originally Posted by cs123

I'm not asking you to believe what is written in the article. If you're an auditor and those claims surprise you then do some research.

I think you'll also find that the pilot pay claims posted here are wrong too. I think this is more accurate regarding classifications. Which makes a little more sense.

A point i made earlier in the thread, but it seems that those here that are been vocal about it cannot be bothered finding the truth....

Originally Posted by mondo_broady

joyce is a hired gun tasked with shifting QANTAS operations offshore. this "battle" is just part of the justification process of stealing away an Australian icon...

You have hit the nail on the head there....

Originally Posted by Scott

Also don't be surprised if Qantas have the support of some very deep pockets that want to set a precedent.

Qantas will win this war, the unions don't have the support to take on the stakeholders in a fight like this.

Major companies within Australia know things are out of whack and that they need to be redressed. If it gets further out of control, you can kiss goodbye to the good times in the boom sectors.

There is no precedent to be had here, the whole gambit is to move Qantas offshore..............thats it!.......don't anybody missunderstand this, if the unions completely backed down tomorrow Qantas will still go offshore, this is not about teaching anybody a lesson.....

As far as quoting my mention of other unions getting involved, in all politeness i think you missed my point, if the unions i am talking about decide to support the three involved in this action and boycott Qantas from flying their members, you can bet you left nut the companies involved (and these companies could buy Qantas out of there lunch money) will be signing up another airline to carry it's workers quick smart.
Anyhow that is all moot......it's what motivates A. Joyce that most Australians should be looking at and mondo_broady has already pointed that out......

I'm also a 6 year QFF Platinium member.......i also still have 275000 FF Points......hmmmm, maybe it would be a good idea to visit the FF store and do some panic buying...

[TruBlu351]

Originally Posted by SteveJH

They may not have had a choice, remember the airline has to pay him the going rate if they don't want him to go elsewhere.

I'd also like to point out, that a $2 million pay rise for one person is equivilent to a $66 increase for 30,000. Assuming a $50,000 average wage, thats an increase of 0.13%/PA.

Don't want him to go!?? Trust me.....him going elsewhere would be a good thing for Qantas longterm......but a bad thing for whoever gets him ;)

[TruBlu351]

Originally Posted by pulpist

The lockout is designed to back the government into a corner and force them to intervene to settle the dispute.

The CEO could have asked the government for assistance at any time. There was no requirement to ground the fleet @ $20M/day loss and inconveniencing thousands of passengers vs a 20c phone call.

[ebxr8240]

Where's Bob ??? Or is he too old to sort this out ???

[gtxb67]

it is amazing isn't it - so many educated people putting down alan joyce and yet they don't seem to know which one he is
http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/...ted-on-twitter

[zak88]

The uniion had pushed too far and they will soon see that the days are numbered.
Qantas can shut down qantas, pop up jetstar and create jetstar premium. This will freed them from the unions and gives them a blank sheet of paper for their cost cutting plan.

[TruBlu351]

Originally Posted by SteveJH

A couple of points.

1) If it was illegal Qantas wouldn't have gone ahead with it, the stakes are too high to risk it.
2) Qantas cannot be sold overseas, there is an act of parliament that specifically prohibits this.

1) Qantas management will break any law they can "get away with" to make a buck. Go and google how many millions they have been fined over the last decade! Freight price fixing for example.....they have a huge legal team to help management fly under the radar.....sometime they just popped their heads up too high and got caught. If they could make $100M in profit and only get fined say $30M when caught, they'll do it.

2) No, but they have been trickle charging the offshore employment for ages. An example, all New Zealand Qantas flights are now operated by a NZ company that Qantas setup called JET CONNECT. It's simply a "SHELL" company with no serious manangement and all the bills go to Qantas....just a smoke and mirrors way to create some offshore creative accounting and cheap employment. But the customer still keeps paying the premium air fares! So dispite the aircraft being painted up in Qantas colours and the pilots wearing Qantas uniforms.....it's not Qantas.

That's just the tip of the iceberg.

[PHATXR8]

The way the Unions in Australia carry-on, I'm sure they don't want any company's to make any profits. The Unions seem to think that all of the profits should go to the "workers". They seem to forget that shareholders, be they institutional or mums and dads, want a decent return on their capital invested, otherwise they will take their cash and invest elsewhere.

I remind you all that the Union bosses are quick to whinge when their members superfund returns are low or negative.....that is irony!

Joyce has Qantas operating as the most profitable airline in the world, hence the recent approval by shareholders to give him a significant payrise.

I would love to see the Unions attempt run any business at a profit. It wouldn't happen because they are disfunctional, immoral, corrupt and are effectively the fund raising arm of the Australian Labor Party. And we all know what a great job Labor governments do when they are in power, regardless of whether it is state or federal politics. They can't manage money, can't run an economy and can't be held to account.

Well done Qantas. It's time to put the unions back in their place and show them that the Australian business community is sick of being held to ransom

[PHATXR8]

Here is a perfect example of what I was talking about earlier....

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/skyhigh-re...029-1mpex.html

[Jim Goose]

Originally Posted by PHATXR8

The way the Unions in Australia carry-on, I'm sure they don't want any compaany's to make any profits. The Unions seem to think that all of the profits should go to the "workers". They seem to forget that shareholders, be they institutional or mums and dads, want a decent return on their capital invested, otherwise they will take their cash and invest elsewhere.

So your saying the worker.. who actually does the work... doesnt deserve job sercurity and instead should be thinking about shareholders who by definition do nothing to contribute to the company?
What a strange set of morals.... sorry i must remember that next time "think of the shareholders!!! they have families and children!!!"

As opposed to the workers.... who are evil people lacking in morals, with no families or bills to pay and utterly selfish!

Originally Posted by PHATXR8

Joyce has Qantas operating as the most profitable airline in the world, hence the recent approval by shareholders to give him a significant payrise.

I would love to see the Unions attempt run any business at a profit. It wouldn't happen because they are disfunctional, immoral, corrupt and are effectively the fund raising arm of the Australian Labor Party. And we all know what a great job Labor governments do when they are in power, regardless of whether it is state or federal politics. They can't manage money, can't run an economy and can't be held to account.

Well done Qantas. It's time to put the unions back in their place and show them that the Australian business community is sick of being held to ransom

Yes well done to the CEO for moving jobs offshore to cheap asian countries...

[DJR-351]

http://www.aipa.org.au/

Qantas pilots are currently engaged in a dispute with management for the first time since 1966, over chief executive Alan Joyce’s plans to shift operations to Southeast Asia and replace Qantas pilots with outsourced alternatives.

^^^.....Obviously unionism gone mad.......vvv

Following Qantas management’s unprecedented and unilateral decision to ground its fleet on Saturday there have been several erroneous reports both in the media and directly from management that we would like to clarify:
•Industrial action by AIPA pilots has not cost the company a single cent in revenue.
•Industrial action by AIPA has not delayed a single passenger or grounded a single flight.
•Our entire public industrial action over the past 4 months has been to make positive in-flight announcements and to wear red ties with our campaign message on them.

For Qantas management to respond to these reasonable and non-disruptive actions in this way is more than a gross over-reaction. It is a sign that the current management has lost touch with the travelling public, its workers and the basic Australian ethos of free speech.

We are hoping for a positive outcome from today’s talks and will provide updates as soon as we can.

In the meantime we’d like to thank all of you who have expressed support for our pilots. Your kind words have been much appreciated.

Barry Jackson
President
Australian and International Pilots Association

[TruBlu351]

Originally Posted by ebxr8240

The books may have been cooked too...

If Jetstar was a stand-alone company I would love to see it's financial figures! It leaches so many freebies from Qantas it's not funny.

[AMGC63]

Originally Posted by Jim Goose

So your saying the worker.. who actually does the work... doesnt deserve job sercurity and instead should be thinking about shareholders who by definition do nothing to contribute to the company?
What a strange set of morals.... sorry i must remember that next time "think of the shareholders!!! they have families and children!!!"

As opposed to the workers.... who are evil people lacking in morals, with no families or bills to pay and utterly selfish!







Yes well done to the CEO for moving jobs offshore to cheap asian countries...

Job security comes from doing a good job and making sure you're employers business remains viable, not from hijacking their business and bullying them.

[DJR-351]

I cannot for the life of me believe the level of support shown here for Qantas to be moved offshore......

[gtxb67]

Originally Posted by Jim Goose

What hijacking have the workers done?

i do not know what is happening in the qantas situation, but the only union situation i was in, the members hijacked the company
most of the workers were hoping for the company shut down our department, because they were only interested in their payout. most were ectastic when it happened because of the payout. it didn't matter that 50 jobs were lost, just they received the money for the here and now . . . and now there are less jobs around - go figure

unions do hijack companies, just like ceo's take advantage of workers. there are good points on both sides, but to suggest only one side is greedy is naive to say the least

[Jim Goose]

Originally Posted by gtxb67

i do not know what is happening in the qantas situation, but the only union situation i was in, the members hijacked the company
most of the workers were hoping for the company shut down our department, because they were only interested in their payout. most were ectastic when it happened because of the payout. it didn't matter that 50 jobs were lost, just their payout for the here and now . . . and now there are less jobs around - go figure

unions do hijack companies, just like ceo's take advantage of workers. there are good points on both sides, but to suggest only one side is greedy is naive to say the least

Yes i wanted a responce by the poster AMGC63.... he claims the unions have hijacked qantas...

What industrial action have the 4 unions and its members commited against qantas?

[dogfish]

Originally Posted by flappist

I used to be in the ETU and saw it from the inside. The ETU held the people of QLD to ransom in the SEQEB strikes of 1984/5 therefore giving JBP the mandate to smash them completely.

TWU obviously did not learn from that lesson.

For those who don't get it or look with only one eye the lesson is:

DO NOT ANNOY THE GENERAL PUBLIC. They/we do not care about anything that does not affect us directly and will turn on whomever is causing us grief regardless of right or wrong.

In this case the perception is:
1) There is a dispute and the unions repeatedly stopped work causing grief.
2) The unions threatened to destroy QANTAS.
3) QANTAS stops flying because of the union so the general public now have huge amounts of grief which they believe is because of the union.
4) The Fed Gov will have to act to sort this and as the general public are against the union the Fed Gov will snot them.

My bet is the TWU like the ETU will now be singing soprano......

But The Federal Government will have it's hands tied as Labor is controlled by the Unions thats how the Red witch got in.
So I don't think you will see the Federal Government do much at all except.
It's just another Blow to Labor.

[svo347]

Id like to rephrase my post and say "That" would be abit of a foolish thought

[kevino]

An age old problem of who gets the cash return on a business
-the workers
-or the shareholders

The facts are that shareholders (not necessarily the Qantas ones) have been taking more and more and the workers get less and less job security.

The Occupy protests are against the fact that the rich are getting richer and the middle and poor are getting more and more squeezed.

Dont bash unions. Unions are the members. The workers.