Unions urge Toyota workers to reject reforms

[neptune blue]

A lot of posts about the fact we can't compete with car manufactures overseas
Antiquated greedy concepts like RDO's union pick nick days, ridiculous wages for leading hands , unions protecting workers that the unproductive and lazy don't help

Neither does the over inflated wages of executives and over administration

Toyota workers wont help them selves
They are so lazy that the cannot place cardboard for recycling into a cardboard recycling bin
So Toyota pay a contractor to go through the bin and separate the cardboard from the waste to reduce landfill costs

This is a cost that could very easily be avoided
A very smart CEO of a major company once said to me , take care of the pennies and the pounds will take car of themselves

The production costs because of inefficient labour is staggering

There ain't no more gravy train its time to roll up your sleeves and get on with the job and stop insisting on frivolous conditions like RDO'S ( as an example) cos soon you may be on a permanent RDO

[irish2]

Originally Posted by neptune blue

A lot of posts about the fact we can't compete with car manufactures overseas
Antiquated greedy concepts like RDO's union pick nick days, ridiculous wages for leading hands , unions protecting workers that the unproductive and lazy don't help

Neither does the over inflated wages of executives and over administration

Toyota workers wont help them selves
They are so lazy that the cannot place cardboard for recycling into a cardboard recycling bin
So Toyota pay a contractor to go through the bin and separate the cardboard from the waste to reduce landfill costs

This is a cost that could very easily be avoided
A very smart CEO of a major company once said to me , take care of the pennies and the pounds will take car of themselves

The production costs because of inefficient labour is staggering

There ain't no more gravy train its time to roll up your sleeves and get on with the job and stop insisting on frivolous conditions like RDO'S ( as an example) cos soon you may be on a permanent RDO

Why the anger against RDO's? It is time that has already been worked but is not paid until the RDO is taken. So they should still work 4 hours per week unpaid and get no RDO now?

[BA GT-HO]

How would you like if you have a business and demand for your product if through the roof, your at capacity, but oh damn! Monday is an RDO! Shut the place down!

Or

You ask everyone to work, knowing that you will have to pay out that RDO at the end of the year at time and a half!

[b0son]

why not reduce the working day to get rid of the 4hrs extra, and do away with RDOs?

[MAD]

Originally Posted by gtfpv

ALL jokes aside chevy power your undermining my intelligence .
Of course i get it .
my 1st reply in this thread #3 whic i will insert here . is the very reason why the union has told the toyata employees not to bargain with them .
it's an un winnable proposal , in which the workers will ultimately lose .
we cannot compete with mass produced cars and wages way below our minimum wages , and currency exchange rates not in our favour .
do you think unionists are that stupid to negotiate a battle already lost ??
it's the people here that blame the union for the down fall of the company that need re educating .
we have a lifestyle that was won by our forefathers with demands that met a certain lifestyle , our other races around the earth somehow got manipulated into a far lesser lifestyle by our elite people , which are smarter and more witted , bullyier and more collective than them the front runners are smarter and harder to beat for the average majority people on every front . however our tendancies are on boith sides of the fence . there is eveil intelligence kind haertedness and bulliness on both sides of the fence which has nothing to do with the highest IQ .
RIGHT NOW , the cleverer more powerfull people are collectively winning . they are gaining power and intelligence , greed and control ( which everyone has in them ) over the lesser people which they had once before .
therefore . my 1st post in this thread remains , and it is why bthe unions told the employees not to negotiate with toyota . as they did with ford and holden . any head kickers who think the union is going to beat these corperates by trying to negotiate less wages with them is perly kidding themsleves .
so you see Chevy power . i do get it .
have a look at post 3 . here .

This sounds an awful lot like, "oh well we can't win, let's hurt them as much as possible before we have nothing"

Sounds a bit like a self-fulfilling prophecy too.


I would have thought a bit more of a thanks toward the company for supplying such a great environment while it lasted would have been more appropriate. Or even some gratitude for having the job in the first place.
I think that word a couple of pages back sums this up... "Entitled".

Entitled to work somewhere you don't get beaten, or exploited? yes.
Entitled to a job? NO!

[stazza]

Originally Posted by BA GT-HO

How would you like if you have a business and demand for your product if through the roof, your at capacity, but oh damn! Monday is an RDO! Shut the place down!

Or

You ask everyone to work, knowing that you will have to pay out that RDO at the end of the year at time and a half!

Create two shifts and alternate RDO's

[BA GT-HO]

Originally Posted by stazza

Create two shifts and alternate RDO's

Yeah right-o. And then the union says no because the EBA says nothing about alternating rdos..

[irish2]

Originally Posted by BA GT-HO

How would you like if you have a business and demand for your product if through the roof, your at capacity, but oh damn! Monday is an RDO! Shut the place down!

Or

You ask everyone to work, knowing that you will have to pay out that RDO at the end of the year at time and a half!

I work in an industry with a 9 day fortnight. You get 1 day off a month and a few days banked up around Christmas, and Easter. Not really a big deal to a company to allow for 1 day off in production, that has not really occured, due to the fact those hours were worked already.

Whilst the bosses never liked the RDO scenario, we still worked 10 hours a day, and 8 hours on Saturday. The RDO allowed the workers time to sort some things out like car servicing or other general household duties.

If you need more work done, then hire more workers or have existing workers do more hours. If employers had their way we would work 7 days a week, 24 hours a day in the name of productivity.

[stazza]

Originally Posted by BA GT-HO

Yeah right-o. And then the union says no because the EBA says nothing about alternating rdos..

Another assumption? I have been on several union jobs with alternating shifts and rdo's.

[b0son]

Originally Posted by irish2

If employers had their way we would work 7 days a week, 24 hours a day in the name of productivity.

Rubbish, we want our weekends too.

[Wretched]

Originally Posted by b0son

Rubbish, we want our weekends too.

not to mention the fact that employers don't encourage long hours for the fact the quality of work drops after a period of time which in turn looks bad on the business.

Employers are not all bad as they're made out to be.
My organisation does require after hours work at times, sometimes more often than not. In the instance of that occurring there is an agreement between the TL and the engineer as to the type of remuneration for those extra hours (TOIL or overtime payment), added to that is the ability to either work from home or start late the next day if required.

[neptune blue]

Originally Posted by BA GT-HO

How would you like if you have a business and demand for your product if through the roof, your at capacity, but oh damn! Monday is an RDO! Shut the place down!

Or

You ask everyone to work, knowing that you will have to pay out that RDO at the end of the year at time and a half!

Spot on

The Argument is that they work extra to cover RDO'S ( only in some cases not all )

So what happens, you need to shut down the plant so no production
One does not off set the other and you need to incur extra cost if you want to keep the plant running ( employ more people)
And we still have posts saying leave the RDO's alone and they honestly still don't get it
The 90's are over but many refuse to accept that we are in a global competitive economy

So if you were told give up your RDO and keep your job would you say no ?

Go right ahead and dig your heels in you may win the battle but ultimately loose the war

[|||]

the bosses should get together & start their own business & not employ any greedy workers. that way all the bosses can just build stuff themselves without the crazy wage costs & make giant profits

[BroadyFord]

The AMWU is about to succeed in the Federal Court in its bid to disallow a vote by Toyota workers.

Goodbye Toyota.

The unions deserve to wear every bit of this.

[neptune blue]

Originally Posted by |||

the bosses should get together & start their own business & not employ any greedy workers. that way all the bosses can just build stuff themselves without the crazy wage costs & make giant profits

Please honestly
No point spending millions of dollars to set up a business to make less money than you would putting it in the bank and earning interest

Business needs to make good profits so the can grow, invest ,employ and make more money
This is how the free enterprise system works .... Where do you live Cuba , North Korea ?

[neptune blue]

Originally Posted by BroadyFord

The AMWU is about to succeed in the Federal Court in its bid to disallow a vote by Toyota workers.

Goodbye Toyota.

The unions deserve to wear every bit of this.

The AMWU has dug their graves for them
Perhaps all the Toyota workers can get jobs with the AMWU

[Brazen]

Originally Posted by neptune blue

The AMWU has dug their graves for them
Perhaps all the Toyota workers can get jobs with the AMWU

I dont understand the AMWU position on this, they represent the workers right? Let the workers vote on the new proposal. Im sure many workers would be willing to give some concessions to save their job.

[BroadyFord]

Dowling has called it.

Why Toyota is next to go | comment

http://www.carsguide.com.au/news-and...80796_20131212

The fate of Toyota Australia’s manufacturing operations has effectively been sealed by a decision in the Federal Court late today.
But workers and the rest of the industry will face a lengthy wait before the final call to shut Toyota’s Altona factory comes from head office in Japan. A formal decision from Toyota may not come until the middle of next year, even though it is as inevitable as Holden’s factory shutdown.

The Federal Court’s decision to block Toyota from asking its factory workers to vote tomorrow (Friday) on changes to shift flexibility and overtime bonuses means that it is now highly likely that the company will not be meet its stringent cost-reduction targets that are key to securing investment in the 2018 Camry.
It had been trying to slash $3800 from the cost of each car it builds, or about 15 per cent of the production cost. The changes to the workplace agreement -- as well as supplier cost reductions -- were key to Toyota Australia achieving its targets.
But the lack of any adjustment to Toyota’s workplace agreement means the entire Australian car industry is likely to grind to a halt after Ford’s factory shutdowns in 2016, Holden’s closures in 2017 and a likely end to Toyota’s operations in 2018, when the current Camry ends its run.
Toyota and the unions appeared in court twice today (Thursday) after the judge deemed in the first hearing that it was illegal for the company to seek an amendment to the current workplace agreement.
According to the interpretation of the Federal Court, Toyota could not commence new negotiations until after the current workplace contract expires in March 2015.
However, Toyota challenged this because in the second half of the wording of the regulation it says “unless there is worker consent”.
Toyota had interpreted that asking workers to vote was a form of consent, and that if 50 per cent plus one worker voted yes to the changes, then they would be enforced. Even before today’s Federal Court decision, unions had foreshadowed a “no” vote so the result is likely the same.
It is difficult to understand what Toyota workers and the unions disliked so much about the new deal. Holden workers had to agree to a three-year wage freeze; Toyota workers were still entitled to two pay rises next year (3.25 per cent in April and 2 per cent in September).
A statement from Toyota said: “Action in the Federal Court has today resulted in Toyota Australia not being able to proceed with its planned employee vote on the proposed changes to its Workplace Agreement terms and conditions.
“The move comes after four employees lodged a complaint with the Federal Court that Toyota Australia could not vary its agreement until it has expired in March 2015.
“Justice Bromberg today supported the four employees and directed Toyota Australia to stop any action it was taking to vary the Workplace Agreement, including the employee vote scheduled for this Friday 13 December 2013."
Toyota Australia President and CEO Max Yasuda said: “We believe that we are within our rights to vary our Workplace Agreement provided the majority of our employees support the changes through a formal vote.
“The company is doing everything that it can to secure the future for our employees and their families.
“GM Holden’s planned closure in 2017 will put our manufacturing operations and the local supplier network under unprecedented pressure, so it is now more important than ever before that we make urgent changes.
“A decision will be made next year on the next generation Camry and export program and we need to take urgent action if we want to stay at the negotiating table for future investments.
“The proposed changes were designed to remove outdated and uncompetitive terms and conditions that make it difficult to compete with other Toyota plants throughout the world.”
Toyota Australia said it may appeal the decision.
But in reality, the Federal Court has given Toyota just the excuse it needs to shut its loss-making Camry factory.
Here’s hoping Toyota factory workers are not put through the same misery and months of uncertainty endured by Holden factory workers.

[SumoDog68]

No concessions will save Toyotas jobs - it is a smokescreen to show workforce as non cooperative . Toyota is looking for exit strategy and asking for what cant be given.
Naturally union bashers jump to the opportunity and serve as screaming old ladies doing Toyotas PR...
Some would want 3rd world conditions for workers in Australia while pocketing the "savings" .

[SumoDog68]

Originally Posted by neptune blue

A lot of posts about the fact we can't compete with car manufactures overseas
Antiquated greedy concepts like RDO's union pick nick days, ridiculous wages for leading hands , unions protecting workers that the unproductive and lazy don't help

Neither does the over inflated wages of executives and over administration

Toyota workers wont help them selves
They are so lazy that the cannot place cardboard for recycling into a cardboard recycling bin
So Toyota pay a contractor to go through the bin and separate the cardboard from the waste to reduce landfill costs

This is a cost that could very easily be avoided
A very smart CEO of a major company once said to me , take care of the pennies and the pounds will take car of themselves

The production costs because of inefficient labour is staggering

There ain't no more gravy train its time to roll up your sleeves and get on with the job and stop insisting on frivolous conditions like RDO'S ( as an example) cos soon you may be on a permanent RDO

Something for you to think about - you talk about our country being uncompetitive with overseas production. Why did we have to manufacture in Thailand , China or India ? Did workers demand globalisation ?
or it was mulitinationals looking for cheaper manufacturing who started it and now we are suddenly non competitive ?

[|||]

Originally Posted by neptune blue

Please honestly
No point spending millions of dollars to set up a business to make less money than you would putting it in the bank and earning interest

Business needs to make good profits so the can grow, invest ,employ and make more money
This is how the free enterprise system works .... Where do you live Cuba , North Korea ?

no i live in australia. what a weird question.

i was agreeing with you about greedy workers. get all the bosses to work together building stuff. no RDOs and no unions. pure free enterprise with no greedy workers.

where do you live?

[neptune blue]

Originally Posted by |||

no i live in australia. what a weird question.

i was agreeing with you about greedy workers. get all the bosses to work together building stuff. no RDOs and no unions. pure free enterprise with no greedy workers.

where do you live?

sorry
I miss interpreted your post as sarcastic
now that you have clarified this, I withdraw my comment

[fte50]

Originally Posted by BroadyFord

The AMWU is about to succeed in the Federal Court in its bid to disallow a vote by Toyota workers.

Goodbye Toyota.

The unions deserve to wear every bit of this.

Not really. From within Toyota .....
The IR Commission initially advised Toyota its quest for reform was not legal during the fixed term of current EBA, therefore went to the High Court for an over ruling but have actually ruled against Toyota as the reforms sought were not adequately costed and could not be shown to have a distinct make or break advantage.
Time and news updates will reveal more

[neptune blue]

Originally Posted by SumoDog68

Something for you to think about - you talk about our country being uncompetitive with overseas production. Why did we have to manufacture in Thailand , China or India ? Did workers demand globalisation ?
or it was mulitinationals looking for cheaper manufacturing who started it and now we are suddenly non competitive ?

The costs difference between building a car in Australia compared to the average price overseas is around $3, 800.00 per vehicle as reported in the press

it doesn't sound like all that much
how easy or difficult would it be to bridge the gap ?


As I have already posted its not about screwing workers its about being more efficient and realistic about how labour resources are best used

ultimately if Australians purchased locally made vehicles (which I have all my life ) we would not be having this discussion

I think we can all agree on one thing - the demise of the automotive manufacturing industry in Australia is a bad thing

[PlukaDuck]

Originally Posted by BA GT-HO

How would you like if you have a business and demand for your product if through the roof, your at capacity, but oh damn! Monday is an RDO! Shut the place down!

Or

You ask everyone to work, knowing that you will have to pay out that RDO at the end of the year at time and a half!

BA GT-HO

You have no idea what your talking about.
RDO.s were introduced by business in the late 80.s early 90, when Australia was in a recession to cut costs and screw the worker.The unions agreed to the concept knowing that things would eventually improve
and would leave a void to be filled by hiring MORE workers.
So while the going was good everyone was happy.
Now that times are tough again business wants to blame someone else. The fact remains that if EVERY worker has RDO days then ALL BUSINESS is on a level playing field with each other.No business has an advantage.

I have worked in several other countries overseas and they don't need unions. Because they will walk of the job without them.
Even the chinese don't work on public holidays.
You should get your facts right before you shoot your mouth off

[superyob]

I had RDOs in early 80s already as an apprentice with M.I.M... I thought it had something to do with a 38 hour week as we had one a month...

[Rodge]

I think if the workers don;t take on board the work reforms that Toyota are asking for they are bloody stupid...just have a look at what's happenned at Holden, do you want a job or want to be on the dole, its really that simple.

[2011G6E]

The Australian car industry and work practices are only partly to blame for what's happening.

A couple of basic issues hinder us severely.
* We're not building the cars the public wants and needs...in the past they have happily spent many hundreds of millions developing new V8's for sale to a tiny handful of buyers, sold each year to a vanishingly small niche market. They build larger and larger "traditional" sedans when people just don't want them anymore in economic numbers, etc. Other car makers in other parts of the world (notably the USA) have been stung very badly in the past when public buying trends changed (sometimes with plenty of lead time and in an obvious way that was totally ignored) and all of a sudden they found they'd read the market wrong...look at the vast unsold numbers of massive SUV's a decade or so ago when people suddenly didn't want a 10mpg oversized truck as a family car.
* Location location location...we're a prosperous first world country with a high standard of living and good wages, however we're unfortunately set smack dab in the middle of countries with teeming billions of people, with staggeringly huge well funded (usually government run) industrial bases where a wage of a few dollars a day (because of lower cost of living) is seen as perfectly normal and rather good in some places. To us from our point of view someone working in a skilled trade for twenty bucks a week might seem criminal and ludicrous, but when everything in the shops and the price of goods and services is (again, from our point of view) dirt cheap, it's a "normal wage" for them.
* Not keeping up with the standard of imports...how long did it take our makers to include as standard features and accessories that were always standard on imports?

Telling the public what they "really want" doesn't even work for selling candy bars...people have their favourites, and usually stick to what they know they want.
Why would anyone think it would work for a very large purchase item like a motor car?

[2011G6E]

Originally Posted by fte50

The IR Commission initially advised Toyota its quest for reform was not legal during the fixed term of current EBA, therefore went to the High Court for an over ruling but have actually ruled against Toyota as the reforms sought were not adequately costed and could not be shown to have a distinct make or break advantage.
Time and news updates will reveal more

I'm not entirely sure how this works...at my workplace we have an EBA with "fixed terms", yet I have literally lost count of the times over the last three years of the agreement where the company has gone before the Fair Work commission and had conditions and work practices modified, overturned, "interpreted", and other things, all of which have gone against us workers. Not one decision has ever come down on the side of the employees here, and this is supposedly a "fixed" EBA that has a set of conditions that can't be changed without workers agreement.

I'd like to read the Toyota one and find out how it gets around that by being "fixed and unchangeable"...

[UberKnee]

Its foolish and moronic, I don't get the point in the union preventing any changes like this when it ends up costing them their jobs later on. They've seen Mitsubishi, Ford, Holden all end/announce the end of Aussie manufacturing. Toyota is the last one standing, loses several grand on every single Aussie made car sold here. Has to try and keep the parts industry afloat all by itself yet unions still want every penny.

Why is it its perfectly fine for employees to strike whenever they want to get something that isn't in the agreement they signed but if an employer trys to renegotiate its considered dasterdly and shut down?

Originally Posted by SumoDog68

No concessions will save Toyotas jobs - it is a smokescreen to show workforce as non cooperative . Toyota is looking for exit strategy and asking for what cant be given.
Naturally union bashers jump to the opportunity and serve as screaming old ladies doing Toyotas PR...
Some would want 3rd world conditions for workers in Australia while pocketing the "savings" .

Getting paid the standard wages Aussie get paid could never be 3rd world. I'm a sub contractor, the only benefit I get is superannuation that I've organised myself. I dont get holiday pay, sick leave, RDO's or anything else and you know what I survive perfectly fine. I live withing my means, if a person cant maintain their lifestyle if the have one day off work unpaid then they're living outside their means and its their fault not their works fault.