|
Welcome to the Australian Ford Forums forum. You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and inserts advertising. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members, respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features without post based advertising banners. Registration is simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today! If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us. Please Note: All new registrations go through a manual approval queue to keep spammers out. This is checked twice each day so there will be a delay before your registration is activated. |
|
The Bar For non Automotive Related Chat |
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
14-07-2011, 01:51 PM | #181 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 18,987
|
wouldnt trust this bunch of clowns stuff some insulation in me roof.....
|
||
14-07-2011, 01:52 PM | #182 | ||
Petro-sexual
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 4,527
|
Few questions for ya sudzy...
Human CO2 emissions equate to about 3% of global CO2 emissions.... How much difference does 3% make to the global temperature? and how many degrees will it drop in 100 years if we remove human added CO2 right now? and what effect will it have on the global climate? (extreme events, etc) What is the world 'normal' CO2 level without people inhabiting the planet? Why is Mars warming at the moment? How many degrees will the temperature increase by if we dont change anything from now? and what effect will it have on the global climate? (extreme events, etc) |
||
14-07-2011, 02:25 PM | #183 | ||
Budget Racer
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 2,421
|
I find personal attacks really help debate.
__________________
12.1@112Mph 285rwkw on n2o Cleveland Power |
||
14-07-2011, 02:39 PM | #184 | |||||||
Banned
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 776
|
Quote:
On present projections, it will add another 4-6C in the next 50-100 years, see: http://www.abc.net.au/iview/#/view/799264, why indeed ask me when the knowledge from the experts is so easily accessible. Im guessing you already know all the answers to these questions(we all have access to google dont we) and are just trying the standard Alan Jones, Andrew Bolt "gotcha" game, Ill play just to see if you try the same thing! Quote:
If we add no more co2, then we could expect to keep temps withing 1-2C, there is already some inertia to the present warming. If we remove the 40% that man has added in the last 200 years(big $ to whoever can figure out how to do that), then we could expect no further warming and a drop of 0.7C Quote:
While man has inhabited the planet(and indeed the planet has had a climate that man can survive in)(last 2 million years) co2 levels have been in the reigon of 200-280ppm, until the last 200 years where they have risen 40% to current level of 394ppm. A fairly safe bet to say 280ppm. Quote:
Quote:
yes on a yearly basis the co2 that the earth emits and reabsorbs naturally is about 32 times more than the amount put into the atmosphere by man. Unfortunately the current ANNUAL extra 3% man puts up there isnt reabsorbed by nature, its already a balanced system, the 3% extra man puts up is partially absorbed by the oceans(increasing pH) and a lot of it stays up there, why we now have co2 at 394ppm, 40% more co2 than since industrialisation. Last edited by sudszy; 14-07-2011 at 02:52 PM. |
|||||||
14-07-2011, 02:43 PM | #185 | |||
Banned
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 776
|
Quote:
|
|||
14-07-2011, 02:53 PM | #186 | |||||||
Petro-sexual
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 4,527
|
Quote:
How many degrees will it change if we reduce our additional emissions to half? Quote:
You didnt answer the second part. "Inertia" something climate change proponents use to make it sound like imminent danger is ahead of us. Inertia is a physics term. It's the resistance of a physical item to change its state of motion. Dont go and throw momentum in the mix either, it requires mass and velocity Quote:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0911150048.htm Amasingly there have been co2 fluctuations before people inhabited the planet. Quote:
Quote:
You dont think with the increase in Co2 in the atmosphere that it might create increased growth in plants that will absorb the excess? If the climate is on a razors edge, why above would you suggest that the eis a point where man's emission becomes significant? Last edited by MAD; 14-07-2011 at 03:10 PM. |
|||||||
14-07-2011, 02:55 PM | #187 | ||
The 'Stihl' Man
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: TAS
Posts: 27,584
|
Surely the way in which EURO regs have been applied to the automotive industry is an example of how change can be made without direct taxation?
Why cant a similar thing be done with industry? Have targets set (and some may differ from industry to industry) that project a reduction by a given date. That way its only the people that use those products end up paying, not eveyone. Automakers seems to have handled it ok. Last edited by Polyal; 14-07-2011 at 03:01 PM. |
||
14-07-2011, 03:02 PM | #188 | |||
Banned
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 301
|
Quote:
|
|||
14-07-2011, 03:08 PM | #189 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Filling up
Posts: 1,459
|
Quote:
__________________
VIXEN MK II GT 0238 with Sunroof and tinted windows with out all the go fast bits I actually need : |
|||
14-07-2011, 03:19 PM | #190 | |||||||
Banned
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 776
|
Quote:
Ill do it again, if man wasnt here today 2011, every indication is that co2 levels would be at 280ppm. Quote:
But is it a gotcha? I stated co2 levels had been between 200-280ppm, and you have dug something up that says 4500 years ago they were 315ppm, so be it. Hopefully your argument would be we need to go back to levels of 315ppm? no, of course not, its to try and discredit anyone telling you to use less fossil fuels. But hangon, the link you have provided doesnt even backup the 315ppm claim and hardly supports your lines of reason, another Bolt/Jones/Monckton trait. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
|||||||
14-07-2011, 03:20 PM | #191 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Filling up
Posts: 1,459
|
Sudszy any chance of providing some insight into post 181?
__________________
VIXEN MK II GT 0238 with Sunroof and tinted windows with out all the go fast bits I actually need : |
||
14-07-2011, 03:27 PM | #192 | |||
Banned
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 776
|
Quote:
One avenue is legislation, but who pays for the cost of doing it?, ie if the power station is only allowed to produce X tonnes of CO2 and has to find other ways of producing the electricity, who pays the extra for that?, we do. There is no hiding the costs. This indeed has been entertained as an option but has been rejected by economists as being too costly a way to bring about the change and that a carbon tax is more cost effective, that's what Garnaut's work was all about. |
|||
14-07-2011, 03:30 PM | #193 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Ipswich, Qld
Posts: 1,354
|
LTD...I think I love you. Worded brilliantly, and left well alone...
For the record there were 77 errors in gore's movie...
__________________
----------------------------------------------------- 2012 Focus ST Tangerine Scream Continually having a battle of wits with unarmed opponents. Sez Photo's by Sez |
||
14-07-2011, 03:38 PM | #194 | |||
Banned
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 776
|
Quote:
Yes, reducing australia's emissions wont do diddly squat to the world's temp or co2 levels. Just the same as stopping Al Gore or Julia flying around in private jets will do diddly squat too. How many out there already use the apparent hypocriscy that Al Gore exudes as an excuse to do nothing? Same thing on a global level. By sending a signal that Australians as amongst the highest per capita producers of CO2 and indeed one of the highest standard of livings in the world are prepared to take measures to cut their emissions so the planet doesnt overheat. Yes, some will say other nations wont care what we do, but they'll certainly use it as an excuse to do nothing if we dont do the right thing |
|||
14-07-2011, 04:06 PM | #195 | ||
Banned
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 301
|
Sudzy don't you mean that the aus govt is prepared to lower our standard of living to improve the third worlds living standards.
|
||
14-07-2011, 04:17 PM | #196 | |||
Banned
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 776
|
Quote:
Hardly. Inertia is a term supposedly well understood by the layman as something that is already in motion that is difficult to stop or indeed something that is not moving and is therefore difficult to change so was entirely appropriate. Im sure everyone here understands the idea that putting the brakes on a moving train wont stop it instantly? The use of the word "inertia" in the english language certainly isnt confined to the physics world, it could be used to describe some people's lack of ability to change their thinking: Intellectual/academic inertia. Im not quite sure what the "correct" term would be, perhaps thermal inertia or latent potential(but any school boy physics students could argue the case against) Language is there solely to get the message across, using a bigger word than inertia simply isnt necessary and I believe most would interpret it as intended. If you have a better term, Im all ears. So in the given context, there are warming phenomenons going on that even if we stop extra co2 tomorrow they will continue. ie the melting of the permafrosts releases large quantities of methane and co2 which will cause more warming, this will continue at present temperatures as there is no reason for the permafrost to freeze over and stop the effect. Last edited by sudszy; 14-07-2011 at 04:35 PM. |
|||
14-07-2011, 04:36 PM | #197 | ||||||
Petro-sexual
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 4,527
|
Quote:
If we are to be expected to beleive the "rock solid" science, then they should be able to deliver "rock solid" answers. Quote:
Why dont you link us to some science papers that atmospheric carbon increases following increases in temperature, not the other way round? Or maybe that ice core CO2 measurement is also disputed? I know why, because we are just supposed to do what we're told and not question anyting. BTW, You've qouted the wrong part. The comment "amasingly there have been fluctuations" goes with the sciencedaily link. It wasnt meant to back up the claim of 315ppm, it again shows fluctuations occur even when we're not around. No comments on Mars warming? Quote:
Quote:
But earlier you said any extra is 'not' absorbed by the planet because it is in a fine state of balance. Therefore 'any' man added CO2 should be of concern. |
||||||
14-07-2011, 04:44 PM | #198 | ||||
Petro-sexual
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 4,527
|
Quote:
Quote:
I guess that means the Carbon tax really is useless. |
||||
14-07-2011, 04:48 PM | #199 | |||
Banned
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 776
|
Quote:
No, I didnt state that the earth was in a 'fine" state of balance and that a 10-30 ppm variation from the pre industrial 280ppm level would start an apocalypse. The reference to significant amounts caters for the relatively small amount of land clearing that man was able to achieve before industrialisation and the small amounts of fossil fuels that man was managing to "fossick" and burn in pre industrial times, that would indeed change the co2 concentration by small amounts mate you simply aren't interested in addressing the science, all you are trying to do is shoot the messenger. I wont be responding to anything you direct on this issue in future, play games with someone else, thankyou. |
|||
14-07-2011, 04:51 PM | #200 | ||
Banned
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 301
|
Sudzy do you pay tax?
|
||
14-07-2011, 04:54 PM | #201 | |||
IWCMOGTVM Club Supporter
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern Suburbs Melbourne
Posts: 17,799
|
http://www.caradvice.com.au/128429/a...nk-carbon-tax/
Quote:
__________________
Daniel |
|||
14-07-2011, 05:03 PM | #202 | ||||
Petro-sexual
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 4,527
|
Quote:
Heres you're quote to refresh your memory. Quote:
Not addressing the science.... And what I am doing os so different to what you are doing how? Sorry if asking the science to provide solid answers is just asking too much. I guess I just better believe it and move on. There are too many contrary pieces of information out there that we are just supposed to agree with in their context, but we should never relate one to something else. If the world is such a sweet, awesome balanced system and volcanoes and earthquakes and bushfires occur naturally, are we not upsetting the balance by trying to put out these bushfires? Anyone that questions about bushfires is shot down with an answer along the lines of "The world can take care of that, it's natural" But the idea that stopping/slowing such events could be detrimental to the balance is regarded as ridiculous. I'm not trying to shoot the messenger, I'm trying to get the messenger to open his eyes and perhaps look at all sides of the argument, rather than relying on a few beloved scientists opinions and using them as your own. I see lots of statements, discounting other views but they are rarely backed up with any evidence. Just a one liner "that's been shown to be incorrect" or similar. Sorry but I dont accept that. |
||||
14-07-2011, 05:58 PM | #203 | ||||
Size it up
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: big blue ball of mostly water
Posts: 591
|
Quote:
In 2000 we had 49% of the vote for the party proposing a GST, and 51% of the vote for the party opposed to a GST. We got the GST anyway. This time we had 52% of the vote for the Lib's, and 48% of the vote for the ALP. We got the ALP anyway. Quote:
It's not that I have a problem with the GST, getting a tax cut year after year after year used to be very nice. I do however think it a bit disingenuous that people maintain Howard had a mandate for it's introduction. Regardless of that, I think the above two cases give a good example of why democracy simply doesn't work. |
||||
14-07-2011, 06:13 PM | #204 | |||
335 - STILL THE BOSS ...
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Melb East
Posts: 11,421
|
Quote:
__________________
'73 Landau - 10.82 @ 131mph '11 FG GT335 - 12.43 @ 116mph '95 XG ute - 3 minutes, 21.14 @ 64mph 101,436 MEMBERS ......... 101,436 OPINIONS ..... What could possibly go wrong! Clevo Mafia [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] |
|||
14-07-2011, 07:27 PM | #205 | |||
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,729
|
Quote:
Howard went to the election saying he would introduce the GST and was elected, yes by less than 50% two party preferred, but he got the numbers. Gillard (and Abbott) went to the election saying that they would NOT be introducing the carbon tax and was elected by getting the numbers and now they ARE introducing one. You don't see the difference? One we got to vote on the introduction of the tax, the other we didn't. Who do you think would have won the election if Labor went to the election saying they would be bringing in the carbon tax? |
|||
14-07-2011, 07:40 PM | #206 | |||
.
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 6,197
|
Quote:
|
|||
14-07-2011, 07:43 PM | #207 | ||
GT
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: SYDNEY
Posts: 9,205
|
the democrats approved the GST , not the voting public , where are the democrats and the liberals today ? the democrats and gone as a direct result . the liberals are in opposition, because of a direct result of work choices .
i dont remember voting on a GST . ALL GOVTS LIE . whats the thing that everyone will remember about the new state govt ? 2.5% PA CAPPED at best public servant increases , even if inflation is uncapped ? did anyone see that coming ? it was the public servants who swung thier votes towards this state party. i'm not infavour of this carbon tax . but the bells and whistles here are amazing and self boasting .not argumentive with substance. i should add to clarify my points . we can see govts go down when they deceive the public . under the same scenario the exact same result will occur . however we still have the GST . BUT work choices is gone on paper only but still exists in everyday life i can assure you . itsd a mixed can of worms , its not really the voting publics fault . there are a few here who have arrogant one sided opinions . this is the ones who pretty much always take themselves and the rest of us out with them , just look at what happens to arrogant govts . Last edited by gtfpv; 14-07-2011 at 07:52 PM. |
||
14-07-2011, 07:46 PM | #208 | |||
Banned
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 776
|
Quote:
|
|||
14-07-2011, 08:00 PM | #209 | ||
335 - STILL THE BOSS ...
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Melb East
Posts: 11,421
|
Sent you a PM Sudzy to say I never received a report today nor yesterday but you have decided not to receive PM's so don't know what button you are pushing but if you feel that way about the post I will delete it .......
Back to topic ...... please discuss as calmly as possible without the insults. I am not going to close the thread as I have been a part of it (Admin or other Mods can do so if they wish) but any more posts where there is a direct or personal attack on someone will get warnings. It is an important subject ...... worth discussing but needs to do so without being personal. I know it is hard to discussion these topics without getting too involved in the actual politics of it but keep it civil.
__________________
'73 Landau - 10.82 @ 131mph '11 FG GT335 - 12.43 @ 116mph '95 XG ute - 3 minutes, 21.14 @ 64mph 101,436 MEMBERS ......... 101,436 OPINIONS ..... What could possibly go wrong! Clevo Mafia [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]Last edited by Auslandau; 14-07-2011 at 08:06 PM. |
||
14-07-2011, 08:08 PM | #210 | ||||
Size it up
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: big blue ball of mostly water
Posts: 591
|
Quote:
My real point is that we're living in a democracy but we never seem to get what the majority want. Quote:
|
||||