Wheels COTY

[PALE ALE]

GEEEZ, i,ve been watching the cricket and these add's come on saying Falcon won car of the year, V8 supercar championship, etc, they must be lying! I think people should take a bex and have a good lie down. All this is, is motoring journalists opinion on new cars, the true test of a car is time(how long until that annoying squeak appears, things start falling off and stop working).

When I was younger, we bought magazines called "street machine", "performance street car" etc.Young lads today are commodore heads,Wheels magazine has commodores on the cover, probably selling more magazines than they ever have.

My neighbour has a Wheels/Holden calender hanging up in his shed. A mates teenage son has a HSV book published by Wheels, so if you want to read rave reviews about the new Falcon, you're buying the wrong magazine

[ILLaViTaR]

Without even reading it'll be some stupid accord, mazda or audi.

[b2tf]

Originally Posted by PALE ALE

My neighbour has a Wheels/Holden calender hanging up in his shed. A mates teenage son has a HSV book published by Wheels, so if you want to read rave reviews about the new Falcon, you're buying the wrong magazine

They've also done mini mags on the Mitsubishi 380 and Ford Territory. I think BA also got one and it got a lot of magazine space over numerous issues when it came out.

[FalconXR6]

Originally Posted by mik

if i recall correctly the fg xt was given the big thumbs up when first released for having more improvement than any other car in the range, as for not having 5 stars on some models due to optional curtain air bags that is entirely up to the consumer whether they want to spend a little more on a option to make the car heavier allbeit slightly safer.

Spot on!!!

It's not the fact that the Falc DIDN'T win that irks me.
It's the major inconsistencies within the publication that are of concern.

[4Vman]

What would you do if you started to sell less of your product because you favored 1 brand...?

[SVTVNM]

Just got my copy of wheels in the mail today, I am wandering has anyone counted the amount of times "SCOOP! New TORANA" has appeared on the front of WHEELS mag.

[BigAL_250]

Strange that the only mechanical reason for rejecting the FG was the steering rack, yet the Showroom section at the back comments on how great the steering is.

Originally Posted by Wheels

It needed to be great and it is; more interior space, better ergonomics; sophisticated ride/handling balance; wonderful steering; classy interiors of G6s; turbos are bloody quick

And how the hell can you mark it down for having a localy developed and manufactured straight 6 that blows two imported (though localy modified) V8's into last century.

[damir05]

i just saw mag on shelf at local petrol station ``shock why falcon didnt win coty`` i felt like calling those pricks and going off at them, they made it sound so bad and its on the cover a lot of people will read that at petrol stations. Just wondering how much holden pays these pricks, i wish i knew where they park their cars it must be ve omegas heaven there, all i can say *** wheels i aint buying another copy evaa

[damir05]

:

[AUXRVIII]

Originally Posted by bigal_250

Strange that the only mechanical reason for rejecting the FG was the steering rack, yet the Showroom section at the back comments on how great the steering is.

And how the hell can you mark it down for having a localy developed and manufactured straight 6 that blows two imported (though localy modified) V8's into last century.

They criticised the rack rattle they were getting in certain situations, not the steering feel of the vehicle.

[Danny]

Originally Posted by melbzetec

For those who consider the Accord Euro a boring accountants car, akin to a camry......have you ever been in one, or driven one?

Whilt the Falcon has been badly treated, the dimissal of the Euro appears to be based on lack of any knowledge of the car, or based on old models, or the old Accord (not Euro) models.

And Wheels has never been an enthusiasts mag, but a general car mag for the broad base of people looking for a new car. Motor is more aimed at enthusiasts

Ahh Steve yes, a voice of reason FINALLY!

Only can agree with you there, the last gen accord euro was an amazing vehicle in every way, sleek, classy looking with just enough sportiness to not be over the top, a lot of kit, and Honda engineering. Clearly, they've raised the bar here with this new one.

I can only imagine it IS a fantastic car, and will DEFINITELY concede that it is probably a better car than the FG. I said it when FG was released and I will say it again. FG is not the jump over the brilliant BF that many assumed it would be. There are STILL no Xenons, Projector headlamps, GPS emergency buttons, integrated DVD Systems, and true high performance V8's. Unfortunately these small little niggling things are what seems to add up to people's perception of Commodore being the whole kit and caboodle where Falcon continues to seem like it is behind.

YES, It is a brilliant car, YES I have driven the non turbo and turbo variant and they are VERY impressive. They don't however offer a huge difference in looks, and in my opinion from afar, they still look too high, and like they're running on VERY small rims (most apparent in the XR/FPV variants). To boot, there are obviously some dynamic flaws in the range that we here have all acknowleged, as has wheels; Rack rattle, LPG models, half baked utes. Problems and minor issues that seemingly have not been attended to in the update.

In short, to me FG has always bothered me in that Ford had a chance to blow away the competition in the time it had to develop the vehicle. But it didn't, I can very easily see the point of view of Wheels. FG is a fantastic car, but it's not a quantum leap in this modern company, and it's not a winner.

-Dan

[irlewy86]

Originally Posted by Danny

Ahh Steve yes, a voice of reason FINALLY!

Only can agree with you there, the last gen accord euro was an amazing vehicle in every way, sleek, classy looking with just enough sportiness to not be over the top, a lot of kit, and Honda engineering. Clearly, they've raised the bar here with this new one.

I can only imagine it IS a fantastic car, and will DEFINITELY concede that it is probably a better car than the FG. I said it when FG was released and I will say it again. FG is not the jump over the brilliant BF that many assumed it would be. There are STILL no Xenons, Projector headlamps, GPS emergency buttons, integrated DVD Systems, and true high performance V8's. Unfortunately these small little niggling things are what seems to add up to people's perception of Commodore being the whole kit and caboodle where Falcon continues to seem like it is behind.

YES, It is a brilliant car, YES I have driven the non turbo and turbo variant and they are VERY impressive. They don't however offer a huge difference in looks, and in my opinion from afar, they still look too high, and like they're running on VERY small rims (most apparent in the XR/FPV variants). To boot, there are obviously some dynamic flaws in the range that we here have all acknowleged, as has wheels; Rack rattle, LPG models, half baked utes. Problems and minor issues that seemingly have not been attended to in the update.

In short, to me FG has always bothered me in that Ford had a chance to blow away the competition in the time it had to develop the vehicle. But it didn't, I can very easily see the point of view of Wheels. FG is a fantastic car, but it's not a quantum leap in this modern company, and it's not a winner.

-Dan

high performance V8's? 290kw and 315kw not enough for ya.


VERY small rims? Seems to be a problem across all cars, high belt line doesn't help

LPG Models? I'm sorry name me one factory offered LPG car in the world that offers what the Falcon has?

Half baked Utes? Really once again they blow the competition out of the water in both a commercial sense and as a recreational vehicle.

Quantum leap in this modern company? Well in the true meaning it is a quantam leap ahead of the overall winner the Accord Euro. One is 4 Star safety car, one is a Quantam leap up and a 5 star car

Nothing against the Honda however I wonder how it managed to pull of a win with such high running costs (insurance/repairs and spares)

[4Vman]

The "small rims" comments make me laugh... what do people want? freaking rubber bands for tyres that get a pinch flat if you run over a pebble or dint the rim and rattle your teeth out?

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

The "small rims" comments make me laugh... what do people want? freaking rubber bands for tyres that get a pinch flat if you run over a pebble or dint the rim and rattle your teeth out?

lol, if you look hard enough at any car you will find faults or issues.

Honda have a good car, but they also had the budget to make it as its a car sold around the world. If Ford had 4x the budget that they had I wonder how good the Falcon would be.

[Paxton]

I don't know whether this has made it across to here, but you know that XR6 Turbo with the bad Clutch? It was Automatic. I have a list of the cars they were sent, all brand new.

Wheels have some explaining to do.

[BLUEYBA]

I think the front page title shows how biased Wheels is against the Falcon. The headline is all about the Falcon not winning rather than saying that the Honda got the award. They don't even think there award is that important to put a front page picture of the car that won. They're more concerned about the car that didn't.
Also they have put on the front page the new small car Holden is looking at building, did they do this when Ford announced that they were building the Focus here?

[mrbaxr6t]

Originally Posted by Paxton

I don't know whether this has made it across to here, but you know that XR6 Turbo with the bad Clutch? It was Automatic. I have a list of the cars they were sent, all brand new.

Wheels have some explaining to do.

Really! well somebody (Ford) probably didn't pay wheels enough money for the car of the year award.

there I said it, flame away...............

[Auslandau]

Originally Posted by Danny

I can only imagine it IS a fantastic car, and will DEFINITELY concede that it is probably a better car than the FG. I said it when FG was released and I will say it again. FG is not the jump over the brilliant BF that many assumed it would be. There are STILL no Xenons, Projector headlamps, GPS emergency buttons, integrated DVD Systems, and true high performance V8's. Unfortunately these small little niggling things are what seems to add up to people's perception of Commodore being the whole kit and caboodle where Falcon continues to seem like it is behind ............. etc

Speechless!

Just before you wrote all that can you please put .... "Unlike the Honda Euro ........ "

V8 or Turbo Honda Euro in a 1 tonne configeration with E-gas ........ just can't decide which one to buy!



| [/url] |

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Paxton

I don't know whether this has made it across to here, but you know that XR6 Turbo with the bad Clutch? It was Automatic. I have a list of the cars they were sent, all brand new.

Wheels have some explaining to do.

Thats funny.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Danny

I can only imagine it IS a fantastic car, and will DEFINITELY concede that it is probably a better car than the FG. I said it when FG was released and I will say it again. FG is not the jump over the brilliant BF that many assumed it would be. There are STILL no Xenons, Projector headlamps, GPS emergency buttons, integrated DVD Systems, and true high performance V8's. Unfortunately these small little niggling things are what seems to add up to people's perception of Commodore being the whole kit and caboodle where Falcon continues to seem like it is behind.



-Dan

In the section of WCOTY where they rate each cars headlights with an expert from Hella scoring it, the Falcon had the second best headlights, so replacing them with more expensive headlights for little gain is pointless to me. More **** value than anything else.

[Matt P]

Originally Posted by Danny

Ahh Steve yes, a voice of reason FINALLY!

Only can agree with you there, the last gen accord euro was an amazing vehicle in every way, sleek, classy looking with just enough sportiness to not be over the top, a lot of kit, and Honda engineering. Clearly, they've raised the bar here with this new one.

I can only imagine it IS a fantastic car, and will DEFINITELY concede that it is probably a better car than the FG. I said it when FG was released and I will say it again. FG is not the jump over the brilliant BF that many assumed it would be. There are STILL no Xenons, Projector headlamps, GPS emergency buttons, integrated DVD Systems, and true high performance V8's. Unfortunately these small little niggling things are what seems to add up to people's perception of Commodore being the whole kit and caboodle where Falcon continues to seem like it is behind.

YES, It is a brilliant car, YES I have driven the non turbo and turbo variant and they are VERY impressive. They don't however offer a huge difference in looks, and in my opinion from afar, they still look too high, and like they're running on VERY small rims (most apparent in the XR/FPV variants). To boot, there are obviously some dynamic flaws in the range that we here have all acknowleged, as has wheels; Rack rattle, LPG models, half baked utes. Problems and minor issues that seemingly have not been attended to in the update.

In short, to me FG has always bothered me in that Ford had a chance to blow away the competition in the time it had to develop the vehicle. But it didn't, I can very easily see the point of view of Wheels. FG is a fantastic car, but it's not a quantum leap in this modern company, and it's not a winner.

-Dan

Some one who bags a car for wheels that are too small has never had to pay for a decent set of 19". With that much grunt you don't want to put crap on so you are looking at $500 min a tyre.

As far as Euro being sporty 148 kws sporty i doubt it thats a startermotor for a good V8.

I drive 2 or 3 a day let to hear the claimed rattle rack.

Don't remember any LPG honda's or honda utes for that matter.

You cant compare the two accord euro 4 cars in the range standard man and auto lux man and auto against 29 not including fpv.

As for half baked utes you have driven an F6 or a turbo ute have you? I'll tell you now they aint half baked. I cant comment on v8 utes have not driven one yet.

Bossxr8 is right I am more than happy with the lights on my XR they don't need xenon crap at twice the price.

[XR Martin]

I drove a G6E and noticed the rattle rack in hard cornering....

[Danny]

Originally Posted by Matt P

Some one who bags a car for wheels that are too small has never had to pay for a decent set of 19". With that much grunt you don't want to put crap on so you are looking at $500 min a tyre.

As far as Euro being sporty 148 kws sporty i doubt it thats a startermotor for a good V8.

I drive 2 or 3 a day let to hear the claimed rattle rack.

Don't remember any LPG honda's or honda utes for that matter.

You cant compare the two accord euro 4 cars in the range standard man and auto lux man and auto against 29 not including fpv.

As for half baked utes you have driven an F6 or a turbo ute have you? I'll tell you now they aint half baked. I cant comment on v8 utes have not driven one yet.

Bossxr8 is right I am more than happy with the lights on my XR they don't need xenon crap at twice the price.

A. It's been acknowleged even by guys on here, that the width of the rubber on the XR's and F6's is too narrow to provide the sort of off the line performance inherent in HSV's with their wider rubber. So long as they still run 245's (or whatever it is), they will be behind. Look at the F6 in particular it's 80-100 times. It is HUGELY fast, it's potential is massive, however hampered it is by silly small wheels on it.

And yes, I do know what it's like to desire decent rubber on your vehicle. The 182 cup has specific Michelin Pilot Exalto tyres that should be kept on the car, as they were developed for this particular car. There is an 8 week wait for them, and the pricing is ludicrous.

Ps sporty is not all about engine's power. I was referring to the sleeker looks of the thing. Besides Accord Euro is 148kW, closer to what falcons big heavy 4 litre was pushing from 92 till the BA. Hell my 2.0 Renaultsport is punching a little over 141kW now, but it is not a big car. Euro's not as big as a falcon, I bet it drives fantastically!

And last comment, Yeah, I've driven the F6, XR6T utes (close friends of the family are the Carryboy canopy owners) and we had in our family fleet a BFII XR8 ute. You're right they're a lot of engine, but they're STILL hampered by archaic rear suspension, and they've carried over the rear tailgate!!!! are they MAD?

Yes, the leaf springs are great for carrying loads et al, but driving one hard through corners is horrible, they rock and roll and have no rear stability over bumps etc etc. The XR8 continues to be the weakest link. Noe of you asks me; "Is 290kW not enough?" Well theoretically, yeah it should be, but the Boss is a flawed engine, ever present lethargy down low, you're waiting for it to wind up like a VTEC Honda 4 cylinder. Yes, the power is AMAZING, but it is not useable when the boot hit's the carpet, and the driver gets an oh so fleeting glimpse of the true punch momentarily before it swaps cogs and you're waiting for it to wind up again.

I know some of you will never be told, I can understand. Yeah I know you're biased and can't see why the Falc was harpooned. I reckon personally it should have done better. I do agree that it's unfair to pit ONE model against a range (where more than one model within the range has SERIOUS flaws). Maybe Wheels do need to take a hard look at how they do this. But rubbishing them and their decision, and rubbishing my non biased opinion isn't going to win COTY for the FG. It's done, It's over. Accord Euro is a good car, the one car on its own clearly better than the average of the whole FG range (remembering some FG models are STILL ONLY 4 STAR ANCAP RATED). I'll stand by what I said

[Swordsman88]

Originally Posted by Danny

A. It's been acknowleged even by guys on here, that the width of the rubber on the XR's and F6's is too narrow to provide the sort of off the line performance inherent in HSV's with their wider rubber. So long as they still run 245's (or whatever it is), they will be behind. Look at the F6 in particular it's 80-100 times. It is HUGELY fast, it's potential is massive, however hampered it is by silly small wheels on it.

And yes, I do know what it's like to desire decent rubber on your vehicle. The 182 cup has specific Michelin Pilot Exalto tyres that should be kept on the car, as they were developed for this particular car. There is an 8 week wait for them, and the pricing is ludicrous.

Ps sporty is not all about engine's power. I was referring to the sleeker looks of the thing. Besides Accord Euro is 148kW, closer to what falcons big heavy 4 litre was pushing from 92 till the BA. Hell my 2.0 Renaultsport is punching a little over 141kW now, but it is not a big car. Euro's not as big as a falcon, I bet it drives fantastically!

And last comment, Yeah, I've driven the F6, XR6T utes (close friends of the family are the Carryboy canopy owners) and we had in our family fleet a BFII XR8 ute. You're right they're a lot of engine, but they're STILL hampered by archaic rear suspension, and they've carried over the rear tailgate!!!! are they MAD?

Yes, the leaf springs are great for carrying loads et al, but driving one hard through corners is horrible, they rock and roll and have no rear stability over bumps etc etc. The XR8 continues to be the weakest link. Noe of you asks me; "Is 290kW not enough?" Well theoretically, yeah it should be, but the Boss is a flawed engine, ever present lethargy down low, you're waiting for it to wind up like a VTEC Honda 4 cylinder. Yes, the power is AMAZING, but it is not useable when the boot hit's the carpet, and the driver gets an oh so fleeting glimpse of the true punch momentarily before it swaps cogs and you're waiting for it to wind up again.

I know some of you will never be told, I can understand. Yeah I know you're biased and can't see why the Falc was harpooned. I reckon personally it should have done better. I do agree that it's unfair to pit ONE model against a range (where more than one model within the range has SERIOUS flaws). Maybe Wheels do need to take a hard look at how they do this. But rubbishing them and their decision, and rubbishing my non biased opinion isn't going to win COTY for the FG. It's done, It's over. Accord Euro is a good car, the one car on its own clearly better than the average of the whole FG range (remembering some FG models are STILL ONLY 4 STAR ANCAP RATED). I'll stand by what I said

I agree with much of your post. In particular Wheels' method of comparing an entire range. Most of us know why this came about (the infamous chrysler incident)

The unwritten rule has always been that if you have a car with a very extensive range, you are given a bit of leeway if one or two of the models isn't quite up to scratch. How else do you think VE won in 2006 (base drivetrain rubbish). However, another unwritten rule was that if you delivered a truly good driving experience, then you it could be forgiven if a few features/spec issues went by the wayside.

Both these assumptions are now well and truly out the window. If this hurts the local products, so be it. However, whiel the competition may have been tougher this year, it is clear that in 2006 wheels had no such issues applying both rules to allow the Commodore a win.

My objection, and that of many others, is why the FG coudn't even make the final four if a car it betters in pretty much every area (as noted by wheels itself) managed to win just two years prior?? The conservative choice of final four confirms the reason.....its more about features/build quality than driving pleasure. Hell an Accord euro is a great car, no doubt, but it isn't anywhere near as much fun as a G6E, let alone XR6T. The mazda 6, a better handling finalist, lost because of noise issues and concerns over the diesel drivertrain (something Honda doesn't even offer?????). The tiguan (along with the Ford kuga, not sold here) have revolutionised the small SUV segment because they handle like hatchbacks, but it loses out because its boot is too small???

I have read the posts on here and respect the opinions presented on both sides, but after reading the mag i still find some of the decisions this year very confusing.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by Danny

A. It's been acknowleged even by guys on here, that the width of the rubber on the XR's and F6's is too narrow to provide the sort of off the line performance inherent in HSV's with their wider rubber. So long as they still run 245's (or whatever it is), they will be behind. Look at the F6 in particular it's 80-100 times. It is HUGELY fast, it's potential is massive, however hampered it is by silly small wheels on it.

Where do i start....

The acceleration times of the 6T powered cars would suggest tractiion is no more of an issue for then than it is for the HSV models, there's more to be gained by changing to grippier tyres than adding 30mm of rear width.

Originally Posted by Danny

And last comment, Yeah, I've driven the F6, XR6T utes (close friends of the family are the Carryboy canopy owners) and we had in our family fleet a BFII XR8 ute. You're right they're a lot of engine, but they're STILL hampered by archaic rear suspension, and they've carried over the rear tailgate!!!! are they MAD?

Yes, the leaf springs are great for carrying loads et al, but driving one hard through corners is horrible, they rock and roll and have no rear stability over bumps etc etc. The XR8 continues to be the weakest link. Noe of you asks me; "Is 290kW not enough?" Well theoretically, yeah it should be, but the Boss is a flawed engine, ever present lethargy down low, you're waiting for it to wind up like a VTEC Honda 4 cylinder. Yes, the power is AMAZING, but it is not usable when the boot hit's the carpet, and the driver gets an oh so fleeting glimpse of the true punch momentarily before it swaps cogs and you're waiting for it to wind up again.

ITS a ute champ!! its meant to carry loads and do "work" the flip side of what you say is the holden ute is rubbish for doing what its designed to do, you know, carry stuff???!!!
How inflexible ias the holden ute? you cant remove the tub and replace it with a pod or tray, the falcon kils it for versatility at what it was designed for...
Iits rear suspension means anything over 100kg's will eventually chop the inside of the rear tyres out and wallow... ive seen it all too often with low profile tyres. If you want decent performance drivability buy a sedan....

Originally Posted by Danny

I know some of you will never be told, I can understand. Yeah I know you're biased and can't see why the Falc was harpooned. I reckon personally it should have done better. I do agree that it's unfair to pit ONE model against a range (where more than one model within the range has SERIOUS flaws). Maybe Wheels do need to take a hard look at how they do this. But rubbishing them and their decision, and rubbishing my non biased opinion isn't going to win COTY for the FG. It's done, It's over. Accord Euro is a good car, the one car on its own clearly better than the average of the whole FG range (remembering some FG models are STILL ONLY 4 STAR ANCAP RATED). I'll stand by what I said

The Euro is a model, not a range, i'm not sure how or why its being compared to the FG range?? Why not compare the whole accord range to the FG range? or the Euro with the G6ET? Seems like selective comparisons for the purpose of supporting your warped views....

[Rodp]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Where do i start....

The acceleration times of the 6T powered cars would suggest tractiion is no more of an issue for then than it is for the HSV models, there's more to be gained by changing to grippier tyres than adding 30mm of rear width.

It was quite awhile ago and possibly on the old Fordforums site but I seem to recall a post that had proven that tyre patch largely remained the same regardless of the width of the tyre between certain widths. Therefore, the wider tyres on the HSV doesn't necessarily translate to more straightline grip as the contact patch of the tyre would be the much the same as the F6 with a narrower tyre.

[mcnews]

Originally Posted by Danny

And last comment, Yeah, I've driven the F6, XR6T utes (close friends of the family are the Carryboy canopy owners) and we had in our family fleet a BFII XR8 ute. You're right they're a lot of engine, but they're STILL hampered by archaic rear suspension, and they've carried over the rear tailgate!!!! are they MAD?

You might have driven some cars but you know very little.
The ute breaks away at the rear later than the sedan, we had both for many years... It is also easier to control when it brakes away due to its geometry.

On broken and rough tarmac the IRS of the sedan shines through and this is where the ute falls down with the leafs, but only on really crap surfaces. I don't know many racetracks that are that rough, Qld Raceway maybe, but that's about it.

The versatility of the Foulcan ute is great. My F6 ute is just brilliant at trackdays, I can't believe how well balanced it is front to rear and I am talking serious racetrack driving here. Yet also completely stock it tows a big caravan, carries loads of sand and mulch in the back, carries two motorcycle to the racetrack and returns economy on average under 13 litres per 100km.

Posers will buy Commonwhore utes, people who like to use a ute will buy a Falcon ute.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by Rodp

It was quite awhile ago and possibly on the old Fordforums site but I seem to recall a post that had proven that tyre patch largely remained the same regardless of the width of the tyre between certain widths. Therefore, the wider tyres on the HSV doesn't necessarily translate to more straightline grip as the contact patch of the tyre would be the much the same as the F6 with a narrower tyre.

The tyre "width in isolation" debate is largely BS...
Yes "wider is better" is a paradigm that's existed because of logical reasons, but those reasons revolve around the theory that the contact patch is greater with a wider tyre, great for slicks, but not that simple for treaded tyres. If you got every brand 245 tyre and were able to actually measure the actual rubber contact surface area and compare them from 1 tyre to the next i bet they'd vary greatly just because of tread pattern design...
The compound, tread pattern and structure of the tyre will have a greater effect on "grip" than just the physical width notated on the side wall...
Even suspension geometry will alter the contact patch of any given tyre and circumstance..

Hell, i've even seen an XYGT with 500hp run low 12's on red walled 205 no brand tyres... But tyres are designed to perform on corners more than just in a straight line.....
You can't just say a "275 is better than a 245" without looking at far more elements....

[Fireblade]

Originally Posted by mcnews

You might have driven some cars but you know very little.
The ute breaks away at the rear later than the sedan, we had both for many years... It is also easier to control when it brakes away due to its geometry.

I know that you have experience with your vehicle so I cant really doubt what you say, but in my experience between my Phoon running 300+ at the treads and a mates Tornado with the same mods and power, I found the ute was a little more unstable and tended to spin up easier under the same conditions, also found the sedan seem to track a little better when this happens compared to the ute. I dont really care about this but was just giving my experience. This wasnt on a race track either so those conditions could change it to the other way.

[mcnews]

That may be the case when boosted up, but stock the ute certainly breaks away later and is easier to catch, which when looking at the difference in the chassis geometry is easily explained.