Split thread: Older cars and safety

[Nikked]

Originally Posted by svo supporter

And then we go back to an older post of mine to do with an accident I had in an older car, vs a newer car. The newer car driver ended up in hospital whilst the older car driver went home.

Oh, I forgot. The older car hit the new car in it's weak spot.

Abs can fail. Airbags can fail. Same applies to seat belt tensioners. I just hope they don't fail in time of need for those that rely heavily on them.

ABS relies primarily on a thin black wire. Airbags rely on power. Seat belt tensioners have been around for many years and have been known to fail. Do some research on those items then come along with the next round

We have already discussed that, compareing your injuries in your frontal impact into the otherdriver's side impact is Apples V's Oranges, hence the vid that i posted, and will post again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OF6JUB7bCEk

It shows to cars, 50 years apart crashing into each other in the exact same spot. It shows, in very basice visuals that the "driver" of the older car is worse off.

If you crashed into a, say, XW falcon, the poor bloke in the AU will most likely be in a worse state then he was.

Your ignorance is childish in unintelligent, those systems are tested to prove there reliability. Yes, they are all electronic, and everytime a car goes in for a service, they are checked. When ABS, Airbag systems have a problem, a light shows up on the dash and then is check buy a mechanic, just like any other part of the car. The fact that the reliy on power is no worry, your car is running when you crash...

Funnly enough, car safety systems are no different to Aircraft, the things that fly millions of people around the globe, and the systems rarely fail

I suggest you put your ill-informed arcane thoughts to rest.

[russellw]

Let's put a little bit of common sense into this discussion.

1. The laminated windscreen is a proven life saver
2. Padded interior surfaces and collapsible steering columns are proven life savers
3. Seatbelts are proven life savers
4. Air Bags are proven life savers
5. ABS is a proven accident prevention technology and...
6. I suspect DSC will prove to be the same

These are some (but by no means all) of the life saving / accident reduction technologies that have been deployed during the last 5 decades and in some cases within the last decade or two. To ignore these is to ignore the reality. The tech section of this forum has some accident statistical data that supports the above view and those who are serious about understanding the relationship between technological improvements and accident survivability could learn something from reading it - or the excellent research done by MUARC.

Older cars have a find place in our memories and for may they are a pleasure to be enjoyed on the right day (and for some that is every day) but let us not kid ourselves into thinking that they represented a safer form of transport than almost any 3 star + ANCAP rated vehicle would today. To do so would be to live in a fools paradise.

Russ

[Giant Cranium]

that sums it up perfectly. id close it now before anyone can argue

[xy500]

Originally Posted by captain awesome

that sums it up perfectly. id close it now before anyone can argue

ah but where is the fun in that, I want to stir up flappist some more!

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by russellw

These are some (but by no means all) of the life saving / accident reduction technologies that have been deployed during the last 5 decades and in some cases within the last decade or two. To ignore these is to ignore the reality. The tech section of this forum has some accident statistical data that supports the above view and those who are serious about understanding the relationship between technological improvements and accident survivability could learn something from reading it - or the excellent research done by MUARC.

Russ, I would be interested in reading the articlesyou have referred to that are in the tech section but I have not been able to find them, could you please post a link?

[svo supporter]

Older cars have brake upgrades that work better than a modern car braking system, inclding those equipped with ABS.

Yes, a modern car will show up a fault with the ABS system, but it's too late when it shows the fault when you're depending on it.

The ABS sensors are located right near the wheel hub. If people look underneath their ABS equipped cars, they'll see a little black wire strapped to the strut. Once that brakes (and it is very thin), the system fails.

These systems, like ABS and the airbags run off fuses and relays. These relays and fuses do blow. No one can say when they'll fail.

So yes, I might be narrow minded, but those knockers obviously don't realise how these systems work, via the electronics and jsut think, I've got all this wonderful stuff that will protect me when ever its needed.

On a parting note about ABS. Please read the 4th posting of this thread. It couldn't happen out of the blue could it?

http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=11305915

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by svo supporter

Older cars have brake upgrades that work better than a modern car braking system, inclding those equipped with ABS.

Yes, a modern car will show up a fault with the ABS system, but it's too late when it shows the fault when you're depending on it.

The ABS sensors are located right near the wheel hub. If people look underneath their ABS equipped cars, they'll see a little black wire strapped to the strut. Once that brakes (and it is very thin), the system fails.

These systems, like ABS and the airbags run off fuses and relays. These relays and fuses do blow. No one can say when they'll fail.

So yes, I might be narrow minded, but those knockers obviously don't realise how these systems work, via the electronics and jsut think, I've got all this wonderful stuff that will protect me when ever its needed.

On a parting note about ABS. Please read the 4th posting of this thread. Makes me wonder whether people read through this forum at all?

http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=11305915

Yawn!!!!!!!!

Yes your ABS might fail at the exact moment that you need it with no warning, and a comet might smash into the earth in canada, plunging the whole world into an ice age.

At least with the ABS you get a warning light if there is a failure, alerting you to the fact and then the onus is on you to get it inspected and the fault fixed.

A 1977 model car may have rust in a structural member that when you need it will cause a catastrophic failure of structural integrity resulting in your death, the difference is there is no warning light.

Yes on an old car you can maintain the car well and inspect frequently for rust, leaking brake cylinders, worn suspension components and a host of other faults they may decrease the safety of that vehicle. Just as you can on a new vehicle which is when you will find that rather well protected ABS sensor wire has been damaged, just like your old car may have a damaged brake line. Providing all the mechanicals are well maintained in both examples, even if all the electronics fail by some freak occurrence on the new car, it is still capable of behaving as a car with no safety aids. Plus it has more structural strength in the right places and crumple zone where required, something the old car does not have.

As for your idea of modifying brakes for better safety, lets get a slight touch of reality here. Most people that drive old cars do not modify them and those that do, the majority do not upgrade brakes. Sure they might spend $10k giving their car 3 times the killer wasps but they do so on standard brakes. If they do modify the brakes, more frequently it is up to modern standards, not beyond.

Keep the discussion comparable, stock car vs stock car, yes you can modify an old car for better safety but you can also modify a new car for better safety. Modified compared to modified the new car will still be safer unless you spend mass amounts of money on the old car modifying the structural design of it, then it is not really an old car any more, it is a new car that looks like an old one.

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by svo supporter

On a parting note about ABS. Please read the 4th posting of this thread. It couldn't happen out of the blue could it?

http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=11305915

Great example, not!

No offence intended to the OP of that thread but your example of your point is someone that had a warning light regarding an important part of his braking system come up and then took it to someone that has no idea how to fix it.

[UNR8D]

Originally Posted by svo supporter

Older cars have brake upgrades that work better than a modern car braking system, inclding those equipped with ABS.

Yes, a modern car will show up a fault with the ABS system, but it's too late when it shows the fault when you're depending on it.

The ABS sensors are located right near the wheel hub. If people look underneath their ABS equipped cars, they'll see a little black wire strapped to the strut. Once that brakes (and it is very thin), the system fails.

These systems, like ABS and the airbags run off fuses and relays. These relays and fuses do blow. No one can say when they'll fail.

So yes, I might be narrow minded, but those knockers obviously don't realise how these systems work, via the electronics and jsut think, I've got all this wonderful stuff that will protect me when ever its needed.

On a parting note about ABS. Please read the 4th posting of this thread. It couldn't happen out of the blue could it?

http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=11305915

are you taking the ****?

Ill bet my wages for the next 5 years that the systems work more than they don't.

I also explained the difference between older systems and new systems having up to 8 redundancy backups should 1 possibly once in a blue moon fail, and like I said before and you *cleverly* haven't picked up or noted it is that should ABS fail, you still have the same breaking capability as a car without abs, but that is STILL better than something from the 70/80s with drum brakes or discs the size of tea saucers, with single piston calipers clamping with all force of your thumb and index fingers pushed together.


AND THEN.... when it all epicly fails and you crash, you still have softer plastics AIRBAG *unless it decides not to activate at exactly the same time as your ABS* and Crumplezones/Safetycell structure *they dont fail*

[block58]

Originally Posted by UNR8D

Crumplezones/Safetycell structure *they dont fail*

That's where you're wrong, they could fail!

What if they all of a sudden went completely rigid right before a crash? Then what would you do?
Even if the 'suddenly rigid crumple zone' warning light on the dash appears, some people don't see it so crumple zones are therefore dangerous!

[russellw]

Originally Posted by geckoGT

Russ, I would be interested in reading the articlesyou have referred to that are in the tech section but I have not been able to find them, could you please post a link?

Link HERE - there are four articles in total I think.

Cheers
Russ

[russellw]

Originally Posted by svo supporter

Older cars have brake upgrades that work better than a modern car braking system, inclding those equipped with ABS.

That unfortunately only applies to a relatively small percentage of them and it doesn't help much with the passive safety does it?

Originally Posted by svo supporter

Yes, a modern car will show up a fault with the ABS system, but it's too late when it shows the fault when you're depending on it.

Statistically, the chance of this actually happening is so small as to be laughable.

Originally Posted by svo supporter

So yes, I might be narrow minded, but those knockers obviously don't realise how these systems work, via the electronics and jsut think, I've got all this wonderful stuff that will protect me when ever its needed.

You have at least one part of that statement right - you are narrow minded. I well realise how these systems work and I am equally aware of the amount of testing and redundancy that is in these system so that while failure is always a possibility it is also an extremely rare event.

We could paint an equally ugly picture (including personal experience) of chassis and suspension based failures in older cars that have actually caused accidents but then that would be letting the facts get in the way of a good yarn.

We all enjoy our old cars but any attempt to suggest that their analogue systems and non existent passive and active safety features make them a safer option is simply flying in the face of the reality check you seem in dire need of.

Russ

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by russellw

Link HERE - there are four articles in total I think.

Cheers
Russ

Thank you Russ.

I think if SVO Supporter actually took time to read it and think about it with a clear mind, he would realise that the evidence demonstrated there and everywhere else that people have presented, clearly demonstrates that his beliefs are misguided.

It is interesting that despite the evidence that you have shown, along with that from myself and other members here, it is us that have been accused of providing only anecdotal evidence. Yet it is those people that have made that accusation that have only provided comments like "I feel safer in my old car" and "I walked out by the new car driver went to hospital" etc.

Perhaps I should refresh my memory of what anecdotal evidence is, perhaps I am off the mark.

Anecdotal- Adj, characterised by or given to telling anecdotes.
Anecdote- Noun, short account of an incident.

No it is all good, putting up statistics, crash tests and references to information does not seem to be anecdotal. Saying that you feel safer or a story of a crash, well thats a different story.

I really do think it is time for some here to admit that their ideas may not have been correct, the evidence shows that and although they may feel safer, they are in fact not. Not that I think we will see that statement from them any time soon.

In the mean time, I hope that some here have learnt a bit, maybe have more of an idea on what to look for in terms of vehicle safety and what its limitations are.

[svo supporter]

It's a pity people didn't comprehend what I was referring to when it comes to the electronics and how they can fail without warning. It's also apity people didn't read posting no 4 of the link I put up. It showed that the electrics can fail without warning. Instead people just read either the title, or a little bit of the thread as shown by the response.


Next time you're having a fuse replaced, or a relay replaced, just remember, it couldn't have just failed out of the blue.

[AussieAV]

Every week multiple people in Australia win Lotto, don't think I'll go on a spending spree hoping for future winnings just yet though. Who knows, the unthinkable could happen and I might not win.

Proving that something can happen, doesn't say anything about how likely it is to happen.

[Rodp]

Originally Posted by svo supporter

It's a pity people didn't comprehend what I was referring to when it comes to the electronics and how they can fail without warning. It's also apity people didn't read posting no 4 of the link I put up. It showed that the electrics can fail without warning. Instead people just read either the title, or a little bit of the thread as shown by the response.

Sure they can fail without warning - I have a car loaded with them but that doesn't mean I take less care on the road because I believe that I have a better chance of survival if I'm in a collision.

Your argument seems to suggest that safety features, both active and passive, turn drivers into lemmings that are ambivalent of their surroundings, giving them a false sense of security.

Heaven forbid that an active security system is required to either avoid an accident or diminish the trauma on an occupant in the event of one as you seem to suggest the likelyhood of it failing is almost a certainty.

[WMD351]

Originally Posted by svo supporter

It's a pity people didn't comprehend what I was referring to when it comes to the electronics and how they can fail without warning.

Maybe that's because you're completely off topic?

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by svo supporter

It's a pity people didn't comprehend what I was referring to when it comes to the electronics and how they can fail without warning. It's also apity people didn't read posting no 4 of the link I put up. It showed that the electrics can fail without warning. Instead people just read either the title, or a little bit of the thread as shown by the response.


Next time you're having a fuse replaced, or a relay replaced, just remember, it couldn't have just failed out of the blue.

I do see your point, I just disagree with it.

You may need to get it rebuilt, I had to have mine done and from memory it cost $250.

They change all the linkages inside the ABS module and put better stuff than factory in.

Believe me it sucks not having abs as I found out one wet, overly excited afternoon :(

If it's just the sensor it will be around 100

He, by his own admission admitted that out in an "overly excited afternoon", which to me means he pushed too far and did not leave margin for error in his driving. In his case he pushed his ABS car beyond what is considered safe driving and a mechanical fault (not electrical) which put him in a sticky situation. This is something that is equally likely to happen in a non ABS car, break linkages break, hydraulic lines leak and cylinders can seize. Perhaps, according to your theory, so that we do not have these systems fail and let us down we should all revert back to a horse and cart. I mean it is the simplest and least technology dependent form of transport.

[pottery beige]

Originally Posted by svo supporter

Older cars have brake upgrades that work better than a modern car braking system, inclding those equipped with ABS.

Yes, a modern car will show up a fault with the ABS system, but it's too late when it shows the fault when you're depending on it.

The ABS sensors are located right near the wheel hub. If people look underneath their ABS equipped cars, they'll see a little black wire strapped to the strut. Once that brakes (and it is very thin), the system fails.

These systems, like ABS and the airbags run off fuses and relays. These relays and fuses do blow. No one can say when they'll fail.

So yes, I might be narrow minded, but those knockers obviously don't realise how these systems work, via the electronics and jsut think, I've got all this wonderful stuff that will protect me when ever its needed.

On a parting note about ABS. Please read the 4th posting of this thread. It couldn't happen out of the blue could it?

http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=11305915

on a dark, wet stormy night i was boogying along in the BA GT.... holy crap someone has built a new round about..... shut the eyes and steer around it with full ABS goodness job done... brake upgrade or not an old bomb would have been airborn over mr roundabout......

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by pottery beige

on a dark, wet stormy night i was boogying along in the BA GT.... holy crap someone has built a new round about..... shut the eyes and steer around it with full ABS goodness job done... brake upgrade or not an old bomb would have been airborn over mr roundabout......

99.999999% of the time this what will happen, the safety features will help you.

The problem is 0.000001% of the time they might have a system failure and let you down, burn them in the fires of hell!

By the way, that was a bit of sarcasm

[GasoLane]

Originally Posted by block58

That's where you're wrong, they could fail!

What if they all of a sudden went completely rigid right before a crash? Then what would you do?
Even if the 'suddenly rigid crumple zone' warning light on the dash appears, some people don't see it so crumple zones are therefore dangerous!

"suddenly rigid crumple zone" ??

This one has me confused. I thought that 'Crumple Zones' were an integral part of the car design. IE: the way the front and rear of the bodywork is built.

So, for a Crumple Zone to 'go rigid' the whole front or rear would have to reorganise its molecular structure. Something only possible in Steven King Films (Christine..).

http://dev.mayomo.com/8634-stephen-king`s-christine

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by GasOLane

"suddenly rigid crumple zone" ??

This one has me confused. I thought that 'Crumple Zones' were an integral part of the car design. IE: the way the front and rear of the bodywork is built.

So, for a Crumple Zone to 'go rigid' the whole front or rear would have to reorganise its molecular structure. Something only possible in Steven King Films (Christine..).

http://dev.mayomo.com/8634-stephen-king`s-christine

I suspect you may have missed the sarcasm that was embedded in that post.

[svo supporter]

Originally Posted by WMD351

Maybe that's because you're completely off topic?

Na, branching more into what's been said.

I had an accident with an older car into a newer car. Because I hit a weak spot in the newer car, this resulted in the newer car driver being hospitalised, where I wasn't. (This is the reason been given by others)

Alot of the for argument in relation to safety has been to do with the features a modern car possesses, like ABS, airbags etc etc. These items can fail without warning. (Not that I wish it on anyone)

As stated by another member on here. Cars between 1977?? and current have a padded steering whel, so if an airbag equipped car has the airbag fail during an accident, they're still going to headbutt a padded steering wheel.

I'm not suggesting that these safety features are guaranteed to fail in the time of need. I'm saying that the possibility is there it can occur. This is demonstrated in the same manner whereby you have a fuse blow or a relay fail in any car without warning. The same principal applies having an accident in any car. Hit in the wrong spot, you'll be injured or killed. (As admitted by other members respondind about my accident), or as most accidents occur, wrong place wrong time.



No where have I suggested people go looking for an accident to test out their saefty systems in built in their cars. I just think the majority of younger drivers (and a few older ones) rely on the fact that they have these systems in the car, therefore expect they will work when needed, as demonstrated by a few postings through here. eg. "My ABS saved an emu jumping on my wifes lap" or something along those lines.

As for belting along in my BAGT, going straight over a new round about and getting airbourne. Or was it because they weren't driving a BA GT. They were driving an old bomb and those items weren't standard? They're probably the reason the dips were removed from Diment Rd. They came close to going into the wreckers near the 2nd one, heading west on one said rd. Must be something about people in that area hey? (Scarcasm off now)

Now I've given "proof" of my reasonings, by using quoting from this very thread. I can guarantee, this won't be enough for some

[pottery beige]

*sigh*.......

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by svo supporter

Na, branching more into what's been said.

I had an accident with an older car into a newer car. Because I hit a weak spot in the newer car, this resulted in the newer car driver being hospitalised, where I wasn't. (This is the reason been given by others)

Alot of the for argument in relation to safety has been to do with the features a modern car possesses, like ABS, airbags etc etc. These items can fail without warning. (Not that I wish it on anyone)

As stated by another member on here. Cars between 1977?? and current have a padded steering whel, so if an airbag equipped car has the airbag fail during an accident, they're still going to headbutt a padded steering wheel.

I'm not suggesting that these safety features are guaranteed to fail in the time of need. I'm saying that the possibility is there it can occur. This is demonstrated in the same manner whereby you have a fuse blow or a relay fail in any car without warning. The same principal applies having an accident in any car. Hit in the wrong spot, you'll be injured or killed. (As admitted by other members respondind about my accident), or as most accidents occur, wrong place wrong time.



No where have I suggested people go looking for an accident to test out their saefty systems in built in their cars. I just think the majority of younger drivers (and a few older ones) rely on the fact that they have these systems in the car, therefore expect they will work when needed, as demonstrated by a few postings through here. eg. "My ABS saved an emu jumping on my wifes lap" or something along those lines.

As for belting along in my BAGT, going straight over a new round about and getting airbourne. Or was it because they weren't driving a BA GT. They were driving an old bomb and those items weren't standard? They're probably the reason the dips were removed from Diment Rd. They came close to going into the wreckers near the 2nd one, heading west on one said rd. Must be something about people in that area hey? (Scarcasm off now)

Now I've given "proof" of my reasonings, by using quoting from this very thread. I can guarantee, this won't be enough for some

I have not seen a scrap of "proof" or evidence in anything you have said. You have given nothing but theory and anecdote and despite numerous invitations you have refused to provide anything more.

You are narrow minded and ill informed on the subject and refuse to be anything different, your choice. I am not going to lose a bit of sleep over it and I am sure the vast majority will not either.

Good luck with it, I am bored with this now.

By the way, this is not a personal attack on yourself, I do not know you and therefore have no intention to attack you. It is just my assessment of your conduct in this thread and I know for sure it is the assessment of many others.

[Auslandau]

Originally Posted by svo supporter

Now I've given "proof" of my reasonings, by using quoting from this very thread. I can guarantee, this won't be enough for some

Could you pin point the proof you have provided? I must be stupid as I am looking but just can't see it?

I was rear ended by a lady in a new Volvo a while back. I was in a 4WD, she hit me at around 70k's. Felt like I nearly broke my neck as I was stationary, but I know I was saved by the head rest (Discovery). Her car had around $10,000 damage ( my car ended up at same panel beater and asked how much) .... made a mess ..... but she could open her door with no problems .... and close it. With not a scratch to herself, apart from shock was 100% fine. Just want to know ..... what would have happened if she was in a 1978 XC?

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by Auslandau

Could you pin point the proof you have provided? I must be stupid as I am looking but just can't see it?

I was rear ended by a lady in a new Volvo a while back. I was in a 4WD, she hit me at around 70k's. Felt like I nearly broke my neck as I was stationary, but I know I was saved by the head rest (Discovery). Her car had around $10,000 damage ( my car ended up at same panel beater and asked how much) .... made a mess ..... but she could open her door with no problems .... and close it. With not a scratch to herself, apart from shock was 100% fine. Just want to know ..... what would have happened if she was in a 1978 XC?

I can answer that, more than a scratch and myself or one of my colleagues would have been cutting her out. I have seen it myself and in this thread we have seen countless pieces of evidence to prove it, never seen any proof to dispute it though, not yet (and good luck finding any).

For those that think a padded steering wheel is good protection in a crash, go out to your car and smash your face into at 60 km/h, when you get out of hospital tell us how it felt. The padding is not enough, not unless you strap 3 pillows to your steering wheel. It was a good option at the time because that is all they had, now they have more.

[pottery beige]

some people bust their noses just trying to get steering wheels off.......

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by pottery beige

some people bust their noses just trying to get steering wheels off.......

There is a great endorsement to the padding that some entrust their facial structure to.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by pottery beige

some people bust their noses just trying to get steering wheels off.......

i bust all sorts of things working on my cars

if it breaks, it needed replacing anyway - thats my motto.

doesn't quite work on the human body though.


svo supporter, if you crash into the side of another car (like you did) in your big old car, depending on your speed, you will consider that you faired better than them (like you did). what you need to consider is, if someone crashed into that same spot (passenger door/drivers door/whatever door) on your car, even in a much smaller car, you will also end up in hospital... maybe even worse.

actually, to keep my family safe, i might go out and by myself a new Mack. just need to find a way to convert the bunk to a bench seat. a nice big Titan should do the trick. plenty of metal between me and everyone else...