So is it the end of the Holden??

[Joe5619]

Originally Posted by Nic85

I'm pretty sure you're talking about Joe Hockey.

http://theage.drive.com.au/motor-new...0120-ml9r.html

We are in big trouble then... Libs will win the next election & Joe is pretty high up.. 2nd or 3rd in charge.. If that is his attention, Ford better hurry up & get funding under the Fabour goverement quickly!!

[Nic85]

Originally Posted by Joe5619

We are in big trouble then... Libs will win the next election & Joe is pretty high up.. 2nd or 3rd in charge.. If that is his attention, Ford better hurry up & get funding under the Fabour goverement quickly!!

Hockey may look like he's swallowed a beach ball, but I don't think he has much clout in the Liberal ranks. Even old numb nuts Abbot would see that vehicle manufacturing in Australia is essential to our economy.

[jpd80]

The perfect opportunity to gap the opposition by supporting local car makers and assisting with future products.

[Road_Warrior]

The opposition is only doing what they do best - playing politics. They realise there is a degree of public disquiet about more handouts to car makers, and they are playing up to it, simply because the Government did the opposite.

[MITCHAY]

What I have always found to be mind boggling is if Holden receive government funds it is perceived as a handout while if Ford does it is regarded as an investment.

Yeah the VE wasn't all it was cranked up to be but you can crunch the numbers and have the best laid plans but there is always an element of the 'Swiss cheese effect' in anything. The holes have to line up to either fail or succeed.

Simple fact is that pretty much every government props up their auto industry. The mere fact that they do tells you it would be much more worst for the economy if they don't.

It is quite an insight though reading through the media and comments from the general public. The general consensus is let them die. It's funny how everyone has this opinion when it's not their job on the line.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Nic85

Hockey may look like he's swallowed a beach ball, but I don't think he has much clout in the Liberal ranks. Even old numb nuts Abbot would see that vehicle manufacturing in Australia is essential to our economy.

Automotive manufacturing is the 2nd highest export earner behind minerals. A lot of people seem to be forgetting that. If it dissapears, thats a massive chunk of money flowing out of Australia.

[Brazen]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Automotive manufacturing is the 2nd highest export earner behind minerals. A lot of people seem to be forgetting that. If it dissapears, thats a massive chunk of money flowing out of Australia.

It's also an import replacement, helping stem the billions of dollars which flow off overseas.

[Nic85]

Not to mention the thousands of skilled workers (skilled in an auto making line) who would be out of work and in the Centrelink line.

[naddis01]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Automotive manufacturing is the 2nd highest export earner behind minerals. A lot of people seem to be forgetting that. If it dissapears, thats a massive chunk of money flowing out of Australia.

Really?

[Scott]

Originally Posted by naddis01

Really?

x2? I thought Services were next in line to be honest.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by naddis01

Really?

I've read that on more than a few occasions. Its something like a $1.8 billion industry, or around that I think. I could google it and find the info, but its getting too late and I couldn't be bothered. I'll leave it to someone else.

Its not just cars being exported but parts as well. Suppliers who also provide to Ford and Holden could also find their export business in trouble if those two shut up shop.

[bobthebilda]

Originally Posted by Scott

x2? I thought Services were next in line to be honest.

Well you probably are correct. According to DFAT, Australias largest export items (by value) in the 2010/2011 year were as follows. Passenger motor vehicles were $1.538 billion dollars.

Rank
Commodity
Iron ore & concentrates $58.388 billion
Coal 43,856
Education-related travel services 15,753
Gold 14,254
Personal travel (excl education) services 11,939
Crude petroleum 11,090
Natural gas 10,286
Wheat 5,492
Aluminium ores & conc (incl alumina) 5,281
Copper ores & concentrates 5,125
Aluminium 4,693
Beef, 4,527
Copper 3,978
Technical & other business services 3,733
Medicaments (incl veterinary) 3,359
Business travel services 3,276
Professional services 3,097
Passenger transport services 2,714
Refined petroleum 2,666
Wool & other animal hair (incl tops) 2,624
Meat (excl beef), 2,325
Other transport services (c) 2,253
Alcoholic beverages 2,122
Telecom, computer & information services 1,712
Passenger motor vehicles 1,538

Analytical industry series
Education (e) $16,348 Billion
Tourism (f) 22,826

[1TUFFUTE]

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

What I have always found to be mind boggling is if Holden receive government funds it is perceived as a handout while if Ford does it is regarded as an investment.

Yeah the VE wasn't all it was cranked up to be but you can crunch the numbers and have the best laid plans but there is always an element of the 'Swiss cheese effect' in anything. The holes have to line up to either fail or succeed.

Simple fact is that pretty much every government props up their auto industry. The mere fact that they do tells you it would be much more worst for the economy if they don't.

It is quite an insight though reading through the media and comments from the general public. The general consensus is let them die. It's funny how everyone has this opinion when it's not their job on the line.

yes but one thing i would really like clarified is...if holden in australia is doing so good maintaining pos 1 or 2 for soo long....how the hell can they be anywhere near the redline or in the need of payouts..bailouts of funding to keep plants open.(however you want to word it). I think unless clearly explained where all the sucsess is going without all the $$$$$...i call dodgy top order and soo many others r angry about this too. I mean ford is getting this lattest funding for eco evolution of there cars and all the public think(and egged on by some media) is that its bailout money. how far from the truth is that.......

[prydey]

different operations have different business plans. some make money by sheer volume, others make money by less volume but higher profit margins. i'm not referring to ford and holden, its just a general statement.

[gtxb67]

Originally Posted by prydey

different operations have different business plans. some make money by sheer volume, others make money by less volume but higher profit margins. i'm not referring to ford and holden, its just a general statement.

plus a whole lot of worthless advertising that soaks up millions of dollars. if you are going to sell the car anyway, why do you need a huge sign up on mount buller and other ridiculous places. maybe their fan base has the memory span of a goldfish and needs to be constantly reminded
maybe they could try super-liminal advertising next - oh wait, they already have thousands of bogans to do that for them

[prydey]

advertising for products is everywhere, including ford. the fact that it isn't on tv seems to upset a few though. not sure about anyone else, but when ads come on tv, its when i turn off/hop up to get drink/go to toilet etc.

i know talking about advertising is sort of off topic, but i hardly saw any mazda3 specific ads. how did all those people know about them??

seen a few ads for the chery range. guess they're going to be the next big thing

[gtxb67]

Originally Posted by prydey

i know talking about advertising is sort of off topic, but i hardly saw any mazda3 specific ads. how did all those people know about them??

it is a little on topic, because holden spend heaps on advertising and also sell cars, yet constantly make no money

something is wrong with their business sense - maybe they think they will be constantly propped up by the government, so can make useless prototypes and spend money like it is water on advertising, that most of us don't care about anyway

when we went to buy a car for my wife, she wanted a honda, i wanted a honda or mazda and we ended up getting a rav 4, because toyota had a big used car sale on, and they had exactly what we wanted

we did not take any notice of advertising, just a perception of each car in our native country

advertising is great, but there may be a thing as too much - either way, the advertising goes hand in hand with the rest of their business plan, and holden's doesn't seem to be any good at all. a greatly loved (so called) australian company that sells the most cars and they still need help to keep their heads above water

in my view, disregarding anything else, the big problem holden have is they cannot afford to have a bad year of sales. anything au like and they will be gone. unless the us government really, really want to help australia they will not allow constant losses, not while they are in the crap too

[G6E Turbo 2]

Sadly we pay people in our Car plants $80K p.a. to build Falcons and Commodores where in other countries they pay them $20K

The only Govt funding Ford should take is to create a marketing Dept
that works along with some decent Journos that promote Ford and challenge
that Holden bias that is so evident to anyone with a brain

Maybe buy Wheels magazine and start doing to Holden what they have been doing to Ford for so many years

My biggest concern is what cars I will buy for the rest of my life, given I have owned 17 Fords so far. I want to be able to continue to buy a top quality Australian RWD motor Car AND it will never be a Holden

I dont hate Holden I just love Fords , to me they are the vehicle of choice

As for V8 Holden Cars, don't start me on that , If it went away who cares it is so not representative of road going cars it matters very little
The old days of win on Sunday sell on Monday are long gone

Bring back a real production series Bathurst and people might watch learn and buy again

End of rant !! lol

[Dr Smith]

Originally Posted by G6E Turbo 2

Sadly we pay people in our Car plants $80K p.a. to build Falcons and Commodores where in other countries they pay them $20K

The only Govt funding Ford should take is to create a marketing Dept
that works along with some decent Journos that promote Ford and challenge
that Holden bias that is so evident to anyone with a brain

Maybe buy Wheels magazine and start doing to Holden what they have been doing to Ford for so many years

My biggest concern is what cars I will buy for the rest of my life, given I have owned 17 Fords so far. I want to be able to continue to buy a top quality Australian RWD motor Car AND it will never be a Holden

I dont hate Holden I just love Fords , to me they are the vehicle of choice

As for V8 Holden Cars, don't start me on that , If it went away who cares it is so not representative of road going cars it matters very little
The old days of win on Sunday sell on Monday are long gone

Bring back a real production series Bathurst and people might watch learn and buy again

End of rant !! lol

But is that $20K worker paying Australian bills for a mortgage, electricity/gas/water, petrol, insurance, schooling, health care, it's all relative. I constantly laugh at people saying for example South Korea is a low labour cost country, it's not as a ship building doco clearly highlighted, it's because of their greater efficiencies and volume of output that dictates why they build ships faster and cheaper. Or the glass factory in China that doesn't have 10,000 low paid workers blowing on the glass to cool it, rather a state of the art plant that has an output greater then all the Australian glass factories combined thus it sells more for less margins.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by prydey

different operations have different business plans. some make money by sheer volume, others make money by less volume but higher profit margins. i'm not referring to ford and holden, its just a general statement.

Good point, we should remember that development of VE and FG was
started in 2002 and 2004 respectively, a very different world to today.
We have the benefit of hindsight, something both manufacturers didn't.

It may well be that our next Falcon isn't unique,
- it could be a shared platform (Fusion/Taurus)
- a unique design that usies a lot of existing parts modules (Mustang)
- or even a RWD version of a new AWD car ( Mustang front on Fusion/Mondeo)

It's highly possible that Holden is looking at the same scenarios.

[svo supporter]

Originally Posted by gtxb67

plus a whole lot of worthless advertising that soaks up millions of dollars. if you are going to sell the car anyway, why do you need a huge sign up on mount buller and other ridiculous places. maybe their fan base has the memory span of a goldfish and needs to be constantly reminded
maybe they could try super-liminal advertising next - oh wait, they already have thousands of bogans to do that for them

Why has there been a few threads on this forum of late, (The last 6 to 8 months) asking why there hasn't been many Ford ads on the TV?

Fair enough Holden may be over advertising, but it's got to be there to be seen.

Just for your record, I'm not putting a biased opinion out there. Just pointing out what I read on this forum.

[Dr Smith]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Good point, we should remember that development of VE and FG was
started in 2002 and 2004 respectively, a very different world to today.
We have the benefit of hindsight, something both manufacturers didn't.

...and sketches for VE began in 1999.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Dr Smith

...and sketches for VE began in 1999.

Right after they saw how the AU Falcon was received, let's not forget BA was originally a rescue plan

[gtxb67]

Originally Posted by svo supporter

Why has there been a few threads on this forum of late, (The last 6 to 8 months) asking why there hasn't been many Ford ads on the TV?

Fair enough Holden may be over advertising, but it's got to be there to be seen.

Just for your record, I'm not putting a biased opinion out there. Just pointing out what I read on this forum.

from what i have read on this forum, i and everyone would never own a fail. i tend to take what people say on this and other forums with a grain of salt. they are rarely right with facts, so i doubt their beliefs on a company they know nothing about will be the only option for the said company

one company sells more cars - the other makes more money
one company advertises more - the other makes more money

maybe ford's way is not the best, but it works at present



there is a signature in this forum quoting henry ford who was meant to have said "if i asked the people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses". most people have no idea what is right or wrong for a particular business or subject. they can have opinions, and they could be close to the mark, but the fact remains ford aus have made more money than holden over the recent years - and advertised less while doing it

[prydey]

Originally Posted by gtxb67

quoting henry ford who was meant to have said "if i asked the people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses".

mr ford had some good sayings. one of my favourites is this - "whether you think you can or you can't, either way you will be correct". (or something like that)

you have to conquer your mind first. anyway, as you were.....

Originally Posted by G6E Turbo 2

As for V8 Holden Cars, don't start me on that , If it went away who cares it is so not representative of road going cars it matters very little
The old days of win on Sunday sell on Monday are long gone

the sport has changed, YOU have not. you are looking at it wrong. if you look at it as a racing car series, it still offers reasonable entertainment and is still pretty popular.

speaking of popular

Originally Posted by G6E Turbo 2

Bring back a real production series Bathurst and people might watch learn and buy again

production series are running now and have been for years, and popular is probably not a word i'd use to describe them. they still run a parity formula too.

maybe they should hang xy falcon panels on COTF!

ok, now i really have gone off topic. sorry

[jpd80]

So how could you possibly start planning a car for 2018 this far out?
I'm wondering if Holden isn't looking for money for VF, VF update in 2016
and a request for development money for successor in 2018...

Oh and there's also Cruze II in 2015 to consider as well....

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by jpd80

So how could you possibly start planning a car for 2018 this far out?
I'm wondering if Holden isn't looking for money for VF, VF update in 2016
and a request for development money for successor in 2018...

Oh and there's also Cruze II in 2015 to consider as well....

With Ford they will go through stages in the planning. Its actually not that far out. There's plenty of work to do before anything is built.

[svo supporter]

Originally Posted by gtxb67

from what i have read on this forum, i and everyone would never own a fail. i tend to take what people say on this and other forums with a grain of salt. they are rarely right with facts, so i doubt their beliefs on a company they know nothing about will be the only option for the said company

one company sells more cars - the other makes more money
one company advertises more - the other makes more money

maybe ford's way is not the best, but it works at present



there is a signature in this forum quoting henry ford who was meant to have said "if i asked the people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses". most people have no idea what is right or wrong for a particular business or subject. they can have opinions, and they could be close to the mark, but the fact remains ford aus have made more money than holden over the recent years - and advertised less while doing it

And there is a quite active thread asking why people aren't buying Falcons. Or would this particular thread be something just to fill in some time? I don't know....Maybe you would.

Not selling means not making money in my book. So one would have to ask ones self, why wouldn't they be selling???? Would it be due to lack of advertising....I don't know.....Would it be due to the after sales service?....I don't know. I've got no facts backing it up. Only what has been put on this very forum.

[Roqua_99]

It's gonna be a sad day of they really do go.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by vztrt

With Ford they will go through stages in the planning. Its actually not that far out. There's plenty of work to do before anything is built.

Not six years in front.
From here with business case approval pending, it takes about four years to deliver the new car.
Holden wouldn't be making a commitment until about 2014 for the 2018, last Taurus was delivered inside three years