Post-2016 Falcon News and Discussion.

[Brazen]

Originally Posted by loftie

You're saying the Falcon is expensive?

In 1996 an EL Falcon GLi cost $30,304.00 (6cyl auto sedan / no options)
In 2001 an AU Falcon Forte cost $32,515.00 (6cyl auto sedan / no options)
a 7% increase over 5 years between EL and AU
In 2006 a BF Falcon XT cost $35,990.00 (6cyl auto sedan / no options)
a 10% increase over 5 years between AU and BF
in 2011 an FG Falcon XT cost $37,235.00 (6cyl auto sedan / no options)
a 3.7% increase over 5 years between BA and AU

And what you're suggesting is to sell the entry level Falcon at a decrease of 19% from today's price at $29,990??? I don't know how much they need to sell a car to make profit (from Ford to the Dealer, or from the Dealer to an Owner) but I'm tipping that they do need to make some money.... and I would think that if you're selling a Falcon for $29,990 - there isn't much profit.

Even if you use the CPI increase (per year) it works out CHEAPER than everything that was relative to each of those examples.

The FG is only marginally more expensive than what a BF XT was 5 years ago - but you're getting WAY more car than you did 5 years ago. Realistically - its a bargain!



Brazen the problem is - there is already a car produced by Ford Australia that isn't a Falcon that can offer you Australia, comfort, safety, freedom, ruggedness, outdoors, family trips, and IS a car that people want to own.
And the price doesn't seem to be a major factor - because they're selling them despite the fact that they are more expensive.

Now - I don't want to put the Falcon in a grave - but when you look at the statistics - if it ain't selling, and it ain't making money........

I appreciate the effort with the statistics stated, but the fact is Falcon is too expensive in today's market. If large cars don't cost much more to build than small cars and if they can sell Focus at 20 grand, I am willing at 30 grand the Falcon is still profitable. We can't compare prices to 10 years ago, the market is different.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Brazen

I appreciate the effort with the statistics stated, but the fact is Falcon is too expensive in today's market. If large cars don't cost much more to build than small cars and if they can sell Focus at 20 grand, I am willing at 30 grand the Falcon is still profitable. We can't compare prices to 10 years ago, the market is different.

by reducing the profit margin, volume must increase to make it worth it. have you considered that the price may not be the reason they aren't selling, and lowering the price may actually make the situation worse.

there is no guarantee that dropping the price would impact sales enough to make it worth it.

[XR Martin]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Remember how Ford stopped importing Mondeo sedans because hardly anyone wanted them,
most buyers wanted either a 5-door hatch or a Station-wagon, maye there's a lesson in that......

Will we ever see a Falcon with more load flexibility that actually complements Territory

But you wont be even able to get a Mazda 6 hatch in the new model, just wagon or sedan.
Accoding to them, the hatch market has little to do with practicality and it was soley based on style.

Look at a Corolla hatch and sedan. The hatch has bugger all load space.

[Nikked]

Originally Posted by Brazen

I appreciate the effort with the statistics stated, but the fact is Falcon is too expensive in today's market. If large cars don't cost much more to build than small cars and if they can sell Focus at 20 grand, I am willing at 30 grand the Falcon is still profitable. We can't compare prices to 10 years ago, the market is different.

The falcon isn't expensive, but other cars make it seem so.

hopfully come 2014, the Falcon will get alot more ford global tech, so all the people who buy cars purely on features will be happy.


You can't compare the falcon with a globally available import either...using the focus as an example is no better then comparing prices from 10 years ago.

[turboxf]

Originally Posted by Moby Vic

Ford North America has a history of doing wild, really cool concept cars simply to introduce certain styling elements for much more mundane production cars.

I actually preferred the production 2005 Mustang over its concept version, though.

I'd love to hear from Ms. Phipps anything about potential export of future Falcons to the US, but I'm sure that cannot be discussed.

Trouble is they do fantastic concepts, FORD 500 concept & INTERCEPTOR CONCEPT that they take a few cues from them, but other car companies like what they see & virtually copy them, Point in question The FORD 500 & INTERCEPTOR concept has been copied by GM with the CRUZE.

The 1999 FOCUS had a few FORD 500 cues in it's design on the front end, now have a look at the front end fenders of the CRUZE ???? taken the bonnet from the interceptor concept also???????

Now this CRUZE is made here with FORD design cues???????

I see so many of them driving around , they are selling well???????

The FOCUS is a better car, but because the CRUZE is made here now it is selling well against the FOCUS that is imported from Europe!!!!

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

But you wont be even able to get a Mazda 6 hatch in the new model, just wagon or sedan.
Accoding to them, the hatch market has little to do with practicality and it was soley based on style.

Look at a Corolla hatch and sedan. The hatch has bugger all load space.

And there are things you can fit onto a Focus or Corolla hatch that you can't fit into a Falcon sedan,
if Ford were looking to improve Falcon desirability, then adding the versatility of a 5-door hatch
and fold flat rear seats would (IMO) rate pretty high in future planning needs....

[turboxf]

How about the next falcon ecoboost have a fast back design , that will make it stand out as a car to have

We read on the interweb that the EB falcon 4 pot is amazing , so why haven't the car buying public surfing the net seen it on banners for DRIVE etc, plus i have seen plenty of free ads for on tv, when the news programs pick it up, they are searching the interweb for motor news , then they get the auto guy on & he gives the tv viewers his take on the EB4 on prime time tv. so as viewers watching it, that means all car buyers not just FORD fans !!!!!

[naddis01]

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

But you wont be even able to get a Mazda 6 hatch in the new model, just wagon or sedan.
Accoding to them, the hatch market has little to do with practicality and it was soley based on style.

Look at a Corolla hatch and sedan. The hatch has bugger all load space.

Yes but the Mazda 6 is not designed for the Australian market.

[turboxf]

Originally Posted by jpd80

And there are things you can fit onto a Focus or Corolla hatch that you can't fit into a Falcon sedan,
if Ford were looking to improve Falcon desirability, then adding the versatility of a 5-door hatch
and fold flat rear seats would (IMO) rate pretty high in future planning needs....

You beat me to it mate, i should have not went searching for concept cars as i was going to say that well before i said the other, great minds think a lot

I even put that to a ford employer salesman at the local FORD dealer yesterday, he liked the idea & said maybe send it to FORD aus.

[bmorris]

Originally Posted by Luke Plaizier

Isn't the Falcon XR the biggest seller of the Falcon fleet?



Lukeyson

This is kinda the point, it may be but only because of the drop in sales of the volume sellers like the base models. The xr6 does make ford more money per sale but they can't survive without the volume IMO

[malazn mafia]

Originally Posted by Luke Plaizier

Acronym decryption assistance required.


Lukeyson

+1. What on earth is an EUCD door? Elegantly Unconventional Closing Door?

[Luke Plaizier]

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

But you wont be even able to get a Mazda 6 hatch in the new model, just wagon or sedan.
Accoding to them, the hatch market has little to do with practicality and it was soley based on style.

Look at a Corolla hatch and sedan. The hatch has bugger all load space.

In the case of the Mazda, isn't the sedan pretty much in the shape of a fastback anyway - it's just the location of the boot hinge that varies?

The Mondeo sedan, on the other hand, was more your traditional three-box notch-back style - like the FG is now.

You guys could all be onto something here. Maybe the 2016 Falcon should be looking more like a fastback than it does now, even if it still has a normal arpeture boot. Given the potential merging of Falcon and Mustang, which is already a Fastback, the natural extension of the 2-door fastback into a 4-door Fastback makes a lot of sense....

Synergy. There, that's my middle-management word of the day.


Lukeyson

[Luke Plaizier]

Originally Posted by malazn mafia

+1. What on earth is an EUCD door? Elegantly Unconventional Closing Door?

Hey, I fell over at RGOR.


Lukeyson

[TC200six]

Originally Posted by malazn mafia

+1. What on earth is an EUCD door? Elegantly Unconventional Closing Door?

EUCD is the name of the current Mondeo platform if it was meant in that context.

[csv8]

Acronym Definition
EUCD European Copyright Directive
EUCD European Union of Christian Democrats (political party)
EUCD Emotionally Unstable Character Disorder (psychiatry)

[AU Mont]

going back the lack of tV advertising....... i certainly dont watch much telly at all, but ive got to say, ive seen the new lamb burger for maccas ad about 1000 times in the last week.

this sort of advertising bombardment is what informs people, and educates them whats new in your stable. TV advertising works better than spreading the word around magazine journo's and drive reviews.

[I6DOHC]

Originally Posted by AU Mont

i certainly dont watch much telly at all, but ive got to say, ive seen the new lamb burger for maccas ad about 1000 times in the last week.

+1^

I've hardly been watching any TV at all lately but you are 100% spot on...in the few times I watched the box (between 6:30-8:00pm) I've seen it countless time. Now I'm annoyed because since you've reminded me about it...it's now stuck in my head.

Anyway for what it's worth, I would see some limited TV advertising as the company demonstrating some pride in the product. It mightn't be directly attributable to sales as much these days, but what I feel can't be argued is it does build the (falcon) brand. Perhaps I'm too old school still but it's sort of an expectation I have to see car company's do up some clever/emotive TV ads for things...a bit like Maccas. Toyota also put a few good ones out every now and again.

[block58]

For those of you who were wondering,

Ford EUCD platform

[RedHotGT]

Originally Posted by Brazen

I appreciate the effort with the statistics stated, but the fact is Falcon is too expensive in today's market. If large cars don't cost much more to build than small cars and if they can sell Focus at 20 grand, I am willing at 30 grand the Falcon is still profitable. We can't compare prices to 10 years ago, the market is different.

By accident, you've summed up the whole issue. The market is different. This is exactly why the Falcon is struggling.

The Focus - which the base model RRP at $21,990 (no options 4cyl manual) is manufactured in Thailand. Much cheaper to make the car there and import it, than it is to build it here.

I'm sure that if the Falcon was to be manufactured in Thailand - then selling it for $29,990 might be realistic.

Again - you say the Falcon is too expensive - compared to what? For the sake of the argument - lets say that the new Falcon/Commodore sells for $37,000. What is another competitor from the large car segment?

Hyundai i45 (Is this medium or large segment?) 2.0 4cyl, 4.82m long (Falcon is 4.96m) 1.83m wide (Falcon is 1.86 wide) weighs in at 1479kg (Falcon is 1648kg) Priced at $26,990 - and is made in Korea

Toyota Aurion AT-X (actually made in Australia) has 3.5lt 6cyl 6spd auto, 4.83m long, 1.82m wide, $36,490. Though again - is this a large car or medium?

Chrylsyer 300C (base model) $43,000 with 3.6lt 6cyl and 8sp Auto, 5.06m length, 1.9m wide, it's slightly bigger than the Falcon - and is made in Canada.

Mercedes C300 perhaps? (Medium Car) RRP at $84,990, it's smaller than the Falcon but the next step up in size in the Mercedes range is $100k+

But - here in Australia - we want it all. We want top quality - but we want to pay nothing for it.

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by Luke Plaizier

Hey, I fell over at RGOR.


Lukeyson

RGOR is the front end bumper/radiator support panel architecture from the FG Falcon. "Reinforced Grille Opening - Reinforcement" is what it means and was actually a first for a Ford passenger car.

[FoxtrotGolfXray 5.0]

Originally Posted by I6DOHC

Originally Posted by AU Mont
i certainly dont watch much telly at all, but ive got to say, ive seen the new lamb burger for maccas ad about 1000 times in the last week.

+1^

I've hardly been watching any TV at all lately but you are 100% spot on...in the few times I watched the box (between 6:30-8:00pm) I've seen it countless time. Now I'm annoyed because since you've reminded me about it...it's now stuck in my head.

I don't normally get involved in this advertising/marketing debate discussion, but I'll use my own experience (noting that it is just me, and that I may not represent the majority of our community) to highlight something that I think is missing from the discussion:

Like you two, I've seen that ad too. Heaps of times. In fact so many times I can't recall how often. But, it has not made me want to get up off the couch, walk out the door, get in the car and drive down to the nearest Macca's to buy one. Maybe if I was heading to Maccas and I saw it advertised on the board I'd try, but I don't frequent Maccas very often.

So, what's my point? My point here is: how much return on that significant investment did Maccas get for paying for that prime time advertising. From my perspective, very little to none. Perhaps it worked on others and wasn't a waste of $$$$.

Now think about that same thing from Ford's perspective. If they advertised on tv, in prime time slots, would it encourage people to get off their butts, and walk in the door to find out more about the product? Maybe. Maybe not. But I can assure you all that any company that invests significant dollars into advertising has a good idea as to how effective that advertising is. And given that none of us know these details (apart from Sinead, and I'm sure she is not going to divulge that information to even us passionate Ford fans) any argument by us on this forum for or against advertising and it's effectiveness is simply speculation at best.

Craig H

[Brazen]

Originally Posted by loftie

By accident, you've summed up the whole issue. The market is different. This is exactly why the Falcon is struggling.

The Focus - which the base model RRP at $21,990 (no options 4cyl manual) is manufactured in Thailand. Much cheaper to make the car there and import it, than it is to build it here.

I'm sure that if the Falcon was to be manufactured in Thailand - then selling it for $29,990 might be realistic.

Again - you say the Falcon is too expensive - compared to what? For the sake of the argument - lets say that the new Falcon/Commodore sells for $37,000. What is another competitor from the large car segment?

Hyundai i45 (Is this medium or large segment?) 2.0 4cyl, 4.82m long (Falcon is 4.96m) 1.83m wide (Falcon is 1.86 wide) weighs in at 1479kg (Falcon is 1648kg) Priced at $26,990 - and is made in Korea

Toyota Aurion AT-X (actually made in Australia) has 3.5lt 6cyl 6spd auto, 4.83m long, 1.82m wide, $36,490. Though again - is this a large car or medium?

Chrylsyer 300C (base model) $43,000 with 3.6lt 6cyl and 8sp Auto, 5.06m length, 1.9m wide, it's slightly bigger than the Falcon - and is made in Canada.

Mercedes C300 perhaps? (Medium Car) RRP at $84,990, it's smaller than the Falcon but the next step up in size in the Mercedes range is $100k+

But - here in Australia - we want it all. We want top quality - but we want to pay nothing for it.

German made Focus was $19,990

Hyundai i45 is priced right for the features you get, a Falcon for a few thousand more is justified.

Aurion is barely selling 600 a month for a brand new model so I wouldnt use them as a positive example.

Chrysler doesnt import base model 300Cs, they import them with, xenons, keyless start, the 3.6 engine and 8 speed auto, so you cant compare pricing - also they are not sustaining a local factory.

Mercedes C300 is targeted at the luxury market and has the features (and brand cache) to pull it off.


Base model Falcon is too expensive, put it at 30 grand to bookend the small car market, and price at where the AWD Compact SUVS start to sell. Large cars do not cost that much more to build than small cars, a base model Falcon at 30 grand is appropriate for the market and competition. The rest of the Falcon lineup can stay roughly where they are, but at the moment the base model Falcon is doing nothing to bring customers through the front door.

[Fiesta_Man69]

Originally Posted by psychobimbo

Now think about that same thing from Ford's perspective. If they advertised on tv, in prime time slots, would it encourage people to get off their butts, and walk in the door to find out more about the product? Maybe. Maybe not. But I can assure you all that any company that invests significant dollars into advertising has a good idea as to how effective that advertising is.

True. But its very hard for Australians to aspire to owning a car they are completely unaware of - such as the Ecoboost Falcon. Advertising should be used to make average Aussie buyers in the Camry buying bracket (as the EB bests the Camry's fuel consumption and is direct competition and a far better car) aware that this product exists.

An invisible car cannot sell.

[RedHotGT]

Originally Posted by Brazen

German made Focus was $19,990

Hyundai i45 is priced right for the features you get, a Falcon for a few thousand more is justified.

Aurion is barely selling 600 a month for a brand new model so I wouldnt use them as a positive example.

Chrysler doesnt import base model 300Cs, they import them with, xenons, keyless start, the 3.6 engine and 8 speed auto, so you cant compare pricing - also they are not sustaining a local factory.

Mercedes C300 is targeted at the luxury market and has the features (and brand cache) to pull it off.

Base model Falcon is too expensive, put it at 30 grand to bookend the small car market, and price at where the AWD Compact SUVS start to sell. Large cars do not cost that much more to build than small cars, a base model Falcon at 30 grand is appropriate for the market and competition. The rest of the Falcon lineup can stay roughly where they are, but at the moment the base model Falcon is doing nothing to bring customers through the front door.

So again - you're saying the Falcon is too expensive - and I again ask you - compared to what?

I provided a quick 4 relevant examples
Hyundai I45 Not enough features / but a $10,000 difference that you say is Justified?
Toyota Aurion - More proof that another large car that isn't selling (It's not just a Falcon problem - its the whole Large Car segment)
Chrysler 300C - So it's not a competitor because it's not made here? It's $6,000 more expensive than the falcon - but you get more (try using the same logic as the Hyundai we already covered - you said that the difference is acceptable there because you get more in the Falcon - but against the 300C the same logic reversed doesn't apply? )
Mercedes C300 Sure it's twice the price - again proving my point that the Falcon doesn't really have competitors to compare against (other than the Commodore)

The Large Car market has 4 cars that are made in Australia
1) Falcon 2) Commodore 3) Aurion 4) Camry
ALL of which are struggling to sell at the moment.

I can tell you for a fact - its not the price that is killing them.

And - once you've got the Falcon at $29,990 (basically selling at a loss) - can you please advise what Ford will do with the entire Modeo range?

[I6DOHC]

Originally Posted by Fiesta_Man69

True. But its very hard for Australians to aspire to owning a car they are completely unaware of - such as the Ecoboost Falcon. Advertising should be used to make average Aussie buyers in the Camry buying bracket (as the EB bests the Camry's fuel consumption and is direct competition and a far better car) aware that this product exists.

An invisible car cannot sell.

Yes, that is where I'm coming from as well.

Anyway, the main thing I've taken away from this thread (with Sinead participating) and a few others in the last week or so is that there is still some interest from Ford in the Falcon. FPV have produced a new hero in the GT-RSpec which got widespread coverage so things are still happening.

2016 will probably roll out a different Falcon to what I'm used to and I like so much....but if it has to be on a global platform my hope is it be Mustang based with Falcon inspired underpinnings (read RWD, great driving dynamics) and interior room. The I6 carryover might be a pipe-dream it seems, but one can never say never. As long as the strategy involves Australian manufacturing I'll still support.

[csv8]

Loftie, you cann't compare the 300C with the XT..its in the same price range as the G6E. BUT much better equipped.feature for feature its better than the G6E. No apologies for supposedly running down FORD, again. But, facts are facts.
300C is made in Canada..

[RedHotGT]

Originally Posted by csv8

Loftie, you cann't compare the 300C with the XT..its in the same price range as the G6E. BUT much better equipped.feature for feature its better than the G6E. No apologies for supposedly running down FORD, again. But, facts are facts.
300C is made in Canada..

Fair point that the entry 300C is same as G6E.

So - what can we fairly compare the Falcon to?

Because so far - every suggestion i've been made has been canned... and yet the Falcon is selling poorly. So what's being bought instead of it?

[Brazen]

Originally Posted by loftie

So again - you're saying the Falcon is too expensive - and I again ask you - compared to what?

I provided a quick 4 relevant examples
Hyundai I45 Not enough features / but a $10,000 difference that you say is Justified?
Toyota Aurion - More proof that another large car that isn't selling (It's not just a Falcon problem - its the whole Large Car segment)
Chrysler 300C - So it's not a competitor because it's not made here? It's $6,000 more expensive than the falcon - but you get more (try using the same logic as the Hyundai we already covered - you said that the difference is acceptable there because you get more in the Falcon - but against the 300C the same logic reversed doesn't apply? )
Mercedes C300 Sure it's twice the price - again proving my point that the Falcon doesn't really have competitors to compare against (other than the Commodore)

The Large Car market has 4 cars that are made in Australia
1) Falcon 2) Commodore 3) Aurion 4) Camry
ALL of which are struggling to sell at the moment.

I can tell you for a fact - its not the price that is killing them.

And - once you've got the Falcon at $29,990 (basically selling at a loss) - can you please advise what Ford will do with the entire Modeo range?

Of course price has become a factor, the premium you pay for a large car over any other car is not as justified as it used to be. I swear I think people still think its the 90s. You were stupid back then not to spend the small amount of extra money over a Laser to get a much better Falcon, nowadays a base Falcon is $17,000 more expensive over a Focus. Consumers cannot see the value in that.

Sure for Holden and Toyota it is convienent to keep large car prices high, they can sell 40,000 a year to the Middle East, or locally assemble a Cruze to build volume. However, for a carmaker like Ford to base their pricing on what Holden and Toyota are doing, rather than what the market is asking for - is simple suicide.... unless you think current Falcon sales are sustainable?

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Brazen

or locally assemble a Cruze to build volume.

you seem to be convinced that volume alone is a saviour!! i would say the average transaction price of falcon + territory, is more than a match for commodore + cruze, even though the holdens sell about a 3rd more. volume isn't everything.

[turboxf]

Originally Posted by AU Mont

going back the lack of tV advertising....... i certainly dont watch much telly at all, but ive got to say, ive seen the new lamb burger for maccas ad about 1000 times in the last week.

this sort of advertising bombardment is what informs people, and educates them whats new in your stable. TV advertising works better than spreading the word around magazine journo's and drive reviews.

The only NEW lamb burger ads i have seen are the HUNGRY JACKS ones!!!!