Burnley Tunnel fire

[outback_ute]

Firstly as charliewool mentioned the tunnel will be closed on Monday (lucky I only have to go within ~20km of it...)

Originally Posted by Keepleft

We really should insist tunnels be constructed with full-length shoulders, even if that adds 100 million dollars to the initial construction cost.

The tunnels cost $1.7 billion, so I'd expect an extra lane or two would cost a lot more than $100m.

One thing that would help safety is better lighting in the tunnel, the current levels are not that flash. Adequate, but that is all. If you don't have your cars' lights on, you struggle to read the speedo etc.

To be brutally honest this doesn't surprise me much (of course you never want to see it happen) because of the ridiculous levels of tailgating that goes on, combined with speedo-obsession.

The descent of the tunnel is reasonably steep, but I normally put the car back to 3rd gear (4sp auto into performance mode which automatically drops down) and that does most of the job of keeping the speed in check.

[Keepleft]

Outback_Ute wrote The tunnels cost $1.7 billion, so I'd expect an extra lane or two would cost a lot more than $100m.

I should clarify, the $100 million dollar figure was engineer ballpark and was on top of the Sydney M5 East tunnel final construction cost of $795 million.

NRMA and self 'etc',- tried to no avail:-( Ditto again with Sydney's new 1,2billion dollar M2-Gore Hill 3,8 kilometre tunnel. (NB - Delinneation an issue, ie sight distane in parts).

One thing that would help safety is better lighting in the tunnel, the current levels are not that flash. Adequate, but that is all. If you don't have your cars' lights on, you struggle to read the speedo etc.

We had many crashes at Sydney's initial (west-side) M2 tunnel at start-up, we adjusted the tunnel lighting and kept approach and through speed uniform and prohibited overtaking**, that reduced the crash rate. But yes, it is proper to adopt a mandatory road rule, with signs, to mandate that low beam headlights should be ON, and set a highish fine perhaps for failing to do so.

That would mirror mandatory Euro practice.

** It's not a particularly long tunnel, so a prohibition on overtaking functions okay.
Snip, agreed!

[Charliewool]

Sounds like I'm Labor bashing here... I'm NOT.. BOTH partys have been equally at fault in their attitude to our road infrastructures. They both do it on the bloody cheap!
And It's taken 3 tragic deaths in the Burnley tunnel to to enforce my belief that SOMETHING has to change!
I'm absolutely fed up with being "undersold", and with copping 2nd best, when it comes to our "modern freeway" systems!
I'm sick of government bowing to these money making regimes (Transurban).. Telling us what's best for us.. and invaribly failing to deliver!
Anyone use the Western ringroad?, Predominately TWO laned, and terror fraught at every exit/entrance!.. Pity the innocent/ not too experinced driver daring on this horror stretch for the 1st time. It's the worst piece of "Freeway" design imaginable.. honestly!
What sort of bloody foresight DO our governments put into approving crap like this? Who convinces them that this is the way to go?.. Is it who provides the best "free lunch".. Is it "who's a mate of who"?...
It's most certainly NOT about safety.. It's all about the almighty dollar!
The almighty SPEED CAMERA rules ALL in their apparent quest to lessen the carnage!
Give US SAFER, properly designed roads!
Off soapbox.. sorry!

[Dr Smith]

Originally Posted by charliewool

Try Tuesday.. Maybe?
You know WHO should cop the REAL blame here?... Friggin Transurban!.. NO emergency lane (OR not letting it be used as one)! Plain & simple!
Heard on the grapevine that these tunnels were designated TWO lanes PLUS the 3rd for emergency.. BUT Transurban, in their wisdom, decided that a 3rd fully operational lane meant a THIRD more revenue!..

From the outset of this disaster, it has been Bracks, plus THAT Transurban female spindoctor, telling us all.. how bloody well their emergency procedures worked! .. Naturally, NO blame of the tunnel design or of no emergency lane!This entire debarcle reeks of them BOTH going into damage control to voice the praises of their beloved tunnels, rather than ADMITTING the REAL shortfall, that was a castrophope waiting to happen!

BTW... THAT Transurban "spindoctor" I mentioned.. (Jean Ker Walsh) just happens to have been the Labor party's first Media Director (under the Cain Government) from memory!!...
You watch, Transurban will come out smelling of roses over this!

Without getting too political it was the Liberal Kennet government which gave the project to Transurban and approved the myriad of potential black spots along the tollway such as on and off ramps causing a criss-crossing of traffic as cars try to merge onto the freeway fighting with cars trying to exit at the next offramp., eg exit from Bolte Bridge followed by South Melb exit, Bolte Bridge east bound exit after the Montague St entrance etc...The real question is why an emergency lane or run off area wasn't designed into the current tunnels..and we all know the reasons, it's a privately funded road intent on making as much profit as possible in 34 years and unless stipulated in a contract it would never have this feature incorporated.

[Blue Oval Mopar Man]

The way I see it is , yes its a tragedy this accident happened and ppl died, but just cause it happened in a tunnel doesnt mean the tunnel or the way it is run are the problem. It does not matter WHAT rules are put in place ,wether it be a tunnel or not , ppl will always find ways to have fatal accidents! that usually comes down to someone who is just not mentally efficent to asses the unfolding situation untill its to late ( it realy does happen) , someones impatience causes them to make a bad judgement on what to do next to get infront of the big truck , or they simply have a loss of concentration and dont see the vehicle in front is slowing or stopped.....ect ....ect......ect !

This arguing and all the different pionts of view will never stop ppl on the roads dying! As long as there are motor cars and roads , ppl will die! As a matter of fact , as long as there are ppl , ppl will die !

[Psycho Chicken]

So let me get this straight, if I lock up my brakes and pull the car to a stop because an animal runs out in front of me then someone rear ends me, it's my fault?

Yes, I would of caused the dangerous situation by not just plowing through the thing, but it's more the fault of whoever isn't keeping a safe breaking distance.

Exactly the same situation here. Stupid, stupid, stupid move by the truckie, but he didn't cause the accident. Especially if a whole 90 seconds passed between him pulling up and getting hit.

What I'd like to see is an ad on the idiot box with a car, HR, HA and B double pulling up from the same speed. It's pathetic most people have no idea how they pull up.

[DTFRMONT]

Looks like it might re-open by Tuesday 10AM.................

from http://www.citylink.com.au/1326.jsp

Update: Burnley Tunnel to re-open 10am Tuesday 27 March 2007
The Burnley Tunnel is scheduled to re-open at 10am on Tuesday.


The Burnley Tunnel was closed by a fatal traffic accident and fire on Friday, 23rd March shortly before 10.00am.



Jean Ker Walsh, spokesperson for CityLink, said engineers and contractors are confident that repairs and full systems testing will allow the tunnel to be re-opened at 10am on Tuesday.



“CityLink engineers have today confirmed the soundness of the tunnel infrastructure and good progress on repair works,” Ms Ker Walsh said.



“They are confident that the scheduled completion of works, full systems testing and final clearance on structural integrity, fire safety systems and road safety standards can be achieved.



“The recovery and re-opening just four days after this tragic event is remarkable.



“However, there has been no short cut on safety taken to schedule the Tuesday morning re-opening.



“It is, in good part, due to the co-operative effort by our own engineers, contractors, Vicroads, fire services, and independent assessors that we have been able to achieve so much in four days.”



Ms Ker Walsh said CityLink was grateful to all those who had assisted in any way with the many aspects of the emergency response and recovery process.

“We especially thank the Roads Minister Tim Pallas, Vicroads and Yarra Trams for their support in making traffic and transport arrangements that will allow Melburnians to move more easily around the city until the tunnel re-opens.



“In thanking those people and the public for their patience, we are also mindful that the families and friends of those who died are today struggling with the most difficult outcome of Friday’s incident. They are in our thoughts,” she said.



Please click here to access the VicRoads website for updates on alternative routes and traffic conditions on surrounding roads

[schmidty]

I'd like to see Keepleft get out of a semi in the tunnel with his vest on and walk 150m behind the truck to put out safety triangles!!!!!!!


HA!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Joke.


I'll put them out in the left lane on the highway, right hand emergency lane on the highway, or any local rd, but i would be buggered if i'll be walking through that chaos in the tunnel to put out friggen safety triangles, law or not. And some stage, common sense and more inportantly self preservation has gotta over ride the law. I'd cop any fine they wanted to hot me with before i walked behind the truck in that tunnel for the sake of 3 piiiisssy little triangles! In fact if i broke down, i probably wouldnt even still be in the truck, i'd be out the passenger side, and i'd go and stand in one of the emergency exit doorways just near the truck until help arrived.

[sfr rob]

what a fuss!
what a way to end my week!
why is everyone blaming the truck driver? Fair enough, he couldn't pull over to an emergency lane (there isn't one), he probably should have tried to make it out of the tunnel before pulling over, but it just shows the bad planning of the developers of the tunnel projects in that regard.

If only some of you went out in a truck, and spent a full day or 2 on the road, you would see all the stupid mindless things some people do.
The dangers of jumping in front of trucks just doesn't seem to register with some people.
Take a quick look at youtube to see the aftermath of a few incidents in the same circumstance's.
I have had plenty of close shaves in the tunnel my self, & was just waiting for this kind of thing to happen.

[Blue Oval Mopar Man]

Originally Posted by Psycho Chicken

So let me get this straight, if I lock up my brakes and pull the car to a stop because an animal runs out in front of me then someone rear ends me, it's my fault?

Im sorry, is this question to me ????

[Silver Ghia]

Something that hasn't been mentioned yet both by this thread and in the media (unless I've missed it), is whether Citylink had actually closed off the left hand lane after the truck had stopped.

Normally when there is a broken down vehicle in the left lane in the tunnel, they close this lane. I've been through there several times when the left lane was closed due to a broken down vehicle.

Was it closed, and if so why were vehicles still travelling in this lane? Perhaps the blame should be put back at Citylink for being too slow in closing this lane, and if they had closed it, then the signage and warnings are inadequate.

As for the poor truck driver that seems to have copped the blame, I hope he gets proper counselling from his company.

[Full Noise]

Originally Posted by Silver Ghia

As for the poor truck driver that seems to have copped the blame, I hope he gets proper counselling from his company.

He’s not a poor truck driver, he’s a basic bloody idiot. And as for counselling, you’ve got to be joking. This is K&S we’re talking about here. Maybe they should spend a little more money on the maintenance of their fleet.

The only counselling this this clown needed was not to say anything to the media.

[Bill_R]

Are any of these types of tunnels monitored and are there warning lights in place?

[TwistedEL]

Yes they are all monitored live and there are overhead warning lights and signage. The question is what was activated and when

[niko]

my old man picked up one of the wrecks...scary stuff

[JC]

Originally Posted by Silver Ghia

Something that hasn't been mentioned yet both by this thread and in the media (unless I've missed it), is whether Citylink had actually closed off the left hand lane after the truck had stopped.

Normally when there is a broken down vehicle in the left lane in the tunnel, they close this lane. I've been through there several times when the left lane was closed due to a broken down vehicle.

Was it closed, and if so why were vehicles still travelling in this lane? Perhaps the blame should be put back at Citylink for being too slow in closing this lane, and if they had closed it, then the signage and warnings are inadequate.

It has been mentioned, and comment was made that when this has happened in the past, the lane is closed usually within 1 minute, and a rescue truck dispatched. I think the fact that all 3 lanes were showing as open puts a lot of blame on the tunnel operators - perhaps the monitor watcher was asleep, or in the dunny?

Warnings or not, the following motorists should have been driving to the prevailing conditions. Some 90 seconds worth of traffic managed to get past safely, but as usual, it just takes one moron to stuff it for everyone.

Full Noise - I can see where you are coming from, but is it is really justified? The truck driver caused the potential, not the actual incident. He was the trigger in a chain of events that could have been avoided obviously if he had not pulled over, but given that he did, the incident was still avoidable, as evidenced by the fact that his was not the first vehicle to ever pull over in the tunnel, and that approx 90 minutes worth of traffic managed to navigate around him safely. There are other factors that contributed to this catastrophe and until they become public record, your speculation of the driver being an absolute idiot as as much speculation as me saying that the state of Victoria thinks Bracks is an angel. Of course, you may well be proven right (I know I will never be), but until then, I say give him the benefit of the doubt and trust that someone with years of experience would not have pulled over unless he thought it was necessary, or unless he was going to go on but other truckies raised concerns and he acted based on advice received from outside the cab - advice based on what others could see was happening to his truck. Everyone is innocent until proven guilty, but you have hung drawn and quartered this guy without knowing the full story. He probably feels bad enough anyway.

[Full Noise]

Originally Posted by JC

Post removed to save space.

I see your point and your comments are fair and reasonable.

The fact remains is that the driver of the truck should not have stopped in the tunnel for a flat tyre and the three cars should have been looking far enough into the distance to see that there was a stationary truck in front of them, regardless of whether the overhead signals were working or not.

Personally, I’m sick to death of basic truck drivers stuffing up big time for the most stupid of reasons and ending up on the six o’clock news and giving the rest of us a bad name. All this does is make it hard for the large majority who comply with the law and the rule of common sense.

I can assure you that this truck driver will get little if no support for his actions from those in the transport industry. If the truck stopped because of mechanical failure, that’s a different story, but it didn’t. He could of quite safely have driven out of the tunnel to a safe area to inspect it.

We all make mistakes. I for one am far from perfect, however, simple common sense from all involved here could have avoided this.

Also, just because he has 18 years experience means jack s***. I know people that have been driving for 30 years and are still crap at it, car and truck drivers.

Take schmidty for an example, I don’t know him personally but he has been driving trucks for six months, yet he displays a great deal of common sense with his posts in this thread. In many circumstances this quite adequately makes up for a lack of experience. People with his attitude are what’s needed in the transport industry.

[Keepleft]

Originally Posted by schmidty

I'd like to see Keepleft get out of a semi in the tunnel with his vest on and walk 150m behind the truck to put out safety triangles!!!!!!!

HA!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Joke.

I'll put them out in the left lane on the highway, right hand emergency lane on the highway, or any local rd, but i would be buggered if i'll be walking through that chaos in the tunnel to put out friggen safety triangles, law or not. And some stage, common sense and more inportantly self preservation has gotta over ride the law. I'd cop any fine they wanted to hot me with before i walked behind the truck in that tunnel for the sake of 3 piiiisssy little triangles! In fact if i broke down, i probably wouldnt even still be in the truck, i'd be out the passenger side, and i'd go and stand in one of the emergency exit doorways just near the truck until help arrived.

Oh sweet glorious merciful satan, ffs don't read me the wrong way. The advocacy applies for ALL roads categories, not just the 0.01% of them which are tunnels. Ok?

The law provides IF it is safe to do so now for those over 12tonnes GVM, and I'd NEVER mandate in the ARR's that it be so - where the persons 'immediate' safety is concerned, for onself, and two - to get passengers away first. The vest, would at law apply, again, if it is appropriate to do so. Really is quite simple and I am so desperately:-) sorry that you get it in your head you think I am saying otherwise.

"****y" little triangles description applies to the excreta masqerading as a warning triangle you've been using as a truckie since AS3790 inception, these ARE excrement in PERFORMANCE PARAMETERS; of wind survivability where a truck passes <0.5 metre @ 120km/h from the triangle, and in relation to reflex reflector performance 10-11lux ats 13-14 for the Euro, the inner 'daytime' triangle is Class-One fluroescent. NB, you will find the Ford (made by Hella Finland) will NOT blow over or out of alignment owing the spidery legs. Spidery legs are 'good', more so than 'solid' types.

We will mandate, in time, for MA, MB, MC categories the better quality triangle, and that's not the current AS3790 'sand-filled' joys that you call a 'triangle'. Again, what truckies use are what I'll best describe as "compliant excrement", and I make that point quite clear to the suppliers to the vehicle and heavy vehicle industries and the AS Committee responsible. Look, they are otherwise great folk, just hopeless with this one issue of standards.

I've dealt with high-speed crash incidents OS, speeds that are much higher than you do here. The program 'works', that is why the UN adopts the Euro practice of engineering, vehicle and driver requirements in Conventions, and not something from 'Victoria'. We don't wish to dumb the world down, sorry.

I still attend crashes and use ALL products out there in the market place, including LED crap and yank sourced 'flares' which have left me, and numerous other scenes down over the years.

[RG]

Originally Posted by Psycho Chicken

So let me get this straight, if I lock up my brakes and pull the car to a stop because an animal runs out in front of me then someone rear ends me, it's my fault?

Yes, I would of caused the dangerous situation by not just plowing through the thing, but it's more the fault of whoever isn't keeping a safe breaking distance.

Exactly the same situation here. Stupid, stupid, stupid move by the truckie, but he didn't cause the accident. Especially if a whole 90 seconds passed between him pulling up and getting hit.

What I'd like to see is an ad on the idiot box with a car, HR, HA and B double pulling up from the same speed. It's pathetic most people have no idea how they pull up.

Actually mate it would be 100% your fault. If you don't know that that is the law you really need to do a bit of reading on the subject.

[Keepleft]

Originally Posted by RedXR347

Actually mate it would be 100% your fault. If you don't know that that is the law you really need to do a bit of reading on the subject.

Many variables to this. A cow wonders onto the road over a crest and what your saying is the driver is required to hit the cow and not brake, JUST IN CASE, either the tailgater or driver not paying attention rear-ends the persons car:-) Variables, variables.

Understand that IF the person hits the cow, the car will be immobilized anyhow, meaning the tailgater will either hit the scene, or the one not paying attention will.

Event; Main Road 217 Dora Creek to Toronto NSW:-) Rear enders at fault. NB scene hit by over 6 cars over a 45 minute period, Cow died at hit number 6. Initial girl devasted and upset that cow suffered so long. (Lake Macquarie News).



No BS.

[RG]

Originally Posted by Keepleft

Many variables to this. A cow wonders onto the road over a crest and what your saying is the driver is required to hit the cow and not brake, JUST IN CASE, either the tailgater or driver not paying attention rear-ends the persons car:-) Variables, variables.

Understand that IF the person hits the cow, the car will be immobilized anyhow, meaning the tailgater will either hit the scene, or the one not paying attention will.

Event; Main Road 217 Dora Creek to Toronto NSW:-) Rear enders at fault. NB scene hit by over 6 cars over a 45 minute period, Cow died at hit number 6. Initial girl devasted and upset that cow suffered so long. (Lake Macquarie News).



No BS.

I agree that for a cow you would not be at fault for stopping, but it was an animal we were talking about not livestock.

EDIT: I bet there was a bit of BS after the cow got hit lol.

[Keepleft]

Originally Posted by RedXR347

EDIT: I bet there was a bit of BS after the cow got hit lol.

Must carry stove:-)

(Was over a gentle crest this one).

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by Psycho Chicken

So let me get this straight, if I lock up my brakes and pull the car to a stop because an animal runs out in front of me then someone rear ends me, it's my fault?

Yes, I would of caused the dangerous situation by not just plowing through the thing, but it's more the fault of whoever isn't keeping a safe breaking distance.

Exactly the same situation here. Stupid, stupid, stupid move by the truckie, but he didn't cause the accident. Especially if a whole 90 seconds passed between him pulling up and getting hit.

What I'd like to see is an ad on the idiot box with a car, HR, HA and B double pulling up from the same speed. It's pathetic most people have no idea how they pull up.

Agreed, i can garantee you i can go out now and put myself into a situation on the road and get myself involved in an "accident" where im not at fault and 100% innocent in the eyes of the law, but that doesnt change the fact that i put myself in a situation to "be involved" in the accident in the first place...

[GTpilot]

Just this morning at about 11am I was travelling along the monash, city bound and observing a truck tailgating everyone and lane changing just to try and get ahead. traffic pace was ~100. He tailgated me at one point, I was doing 110. He eventually got the shits with me standing firm and sitting on 105. (he was so close I could not see his windscreen, only the front grille), changed lane cutting someone else off and went around me only to sit up the butt of the next car. This DH was doing this all the way from when I first noticed him at burke rd, tailing a festiva, that eventually moved out of his way, probably through sheer fear for their life. It still doing it all the way through the domain tunnel to a transit van. I exited at montague St and he was still up the but of other cars. I took mental note of his rego but I have forgotten the numbers.

Was a Dark blue cabbed truck, maybe 12tonne ( was quite large and I don't know much about truck types). Soild chassis (no trailer) REGO was something like SKQ ... this clown would have had ZERO chance of stopping in an emergency situation with out mowing over the car in front of him including me at one point. What a wayne kerr!!

My point here is that there ARE some real morons driving truck on this freeway. AND something needs to be done about it before more fatalities are recorded. I supose as usual it will take some pollies familiy member to be involved before they do anything.

[Laminge]

Oi you 2, quit it.

3 people have lost their life and you want to argue what someone in another state claims... geesh get a grip on reality.

This child play stops.

[GT290]

Originally Posted by ratter

I think someone should inform the coroner that he should come here and read all the info from our experts :

Hit on the head. I think with all the informative crash stories the coroner should be able to sit at home and solve the cases. few, wish I could get this much information about how to do my job. I too could sit at home hehe.

[kyro_02]

I would have pulled over ! with all due respect, if the cars and that other truck was keeping a safe gap.. and paying attention this wouldn't have happen. but we are only human.

if the trucks' engine seized and this same thing happen, ie; carnage, ya'll would probably stand beside the truckie.

[clontarf_x]

I'm not going to try and keep the thread going (a lot of views expressed here) but;

Truck that stopped to investigate sparks. I'd do so too, silly to stop in what so far has been described as a limited space tunnel, but given sparks can potentially lead to danger, good on him.

Truck that by eye-witness seems to have been speeding and weaving in traffic. This was probably how it started (side swiping vehicles) e.t.c

Other vehicles. Probably not leaving enough space/trying to slot into moving traffic/general inattentiveness.

The first truck is not at fault
The second truck is
The other vehicles in play were unfortunate bystanders

Driver behaviour plays a big part in this incident by the sounds of it. I think people should lay off the first truck... he was just doing his job.

[GasoLane]

Originally Posted by JC

sparks could mean so many things - rim on road, diff/suspension tearing itself to pieces - who knows until someone stops and looks).

If other drivers had told him about sparks they would have seen the rubber on the road and should have realised the problem, assuming he had a radio.
If it was a rim two tyres would have had to blow, if it was an axle (diff) then he's really in trouble as this would mean that he's worn through two rims and the brake drum!
When a cap comes off it leaves the original tyre with the steel belts exposed, these cause small sparks.

I wonder if anyone will ask why a cap came off at low speed in cool conditions?

Originally Posted by GK5766

Put yourself if the truckies shoes,
if you seen sparks coming from a trailer that could be a number of things,
the truck driver stopped in the only place he could of at the time to inspect whatever was sparking. preventing a diasaster but it found him due to
unaware drivers.

BZZZT, Wrong. He should have moved over to the slow lane, slowed down and driven carefully (with hazard lights on) untill it WAS SAFE TO STOP!

Originally Posted by GK5766

but what if the 2nd tyre blows at 100kph? my guess would be some sudden shift of movement that could possibly lead to a roll over.

You really have no idea do you? I think i've mentioned it before , I've had a tyre blow at 130kmh and the only shift in movement was the cap and a mudguard into the scrub!

Originally Posted by iCat

so what's the difference between stopping in the left hand lane in the tunnel, and stopping in the left hand lane of a major dual lane road?

No escape route for following vehicles in a tunnel.

[Keepleft]

JGB - Might pay to ring that blokes company and advise them of his behaviour. Sometimes folk need to make the effort, without being big-headed.

Just a thought.