Newsflash: Front Wheel Drive is rubbish!

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by Ghiadude

THIS IS NOT TO SAY THAT FWD'S are inherently BAD!!

No, it is the title of this thread that does, hence the issues.

[Piotr]

Originally Posted by Ghiadude

power to weight is not and NEVVER WILL BE the detirminate factor in laptimes(quarter mile i different). A RWD with the same kerb weight and level of development as the megane will not only eat it, but spit it out, ******** on it then go back to its house and fornicate with its mother. The discussion here is not about small cars. Its about large FWD cars.

PS a BMW 1 series eats its oposition (with the same power to weight)

BMW 130i vs R26.R

Track 130i Megane R26.R
Top Gear Track 1:31.9 1:28.10
Tsukuba 1:09.184 1:07.868
Inta 1:16.09 1:11.78
Magny-Cours 1:32.49 1:27.34 (toyo)

Sure looks like your predictions are comming true...NOT

Lets see against the 135i

Track 135i Coupe (E82) Megane R26.R
Nordschleife 8:39.2 8:16.90
Tsukuba 1:07.860 1:07.868
Bruntingthorpe 1:23.1 1:20.70
Magny-Cours 1:29.75 (wet) 1:27.34 (toyo)
Inta Long (Conf 2) 1:30.55 1:27.96

Go back to Bogan University

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Ghiadude

ill simplify it for anyone who says "x" FWD is quicker than "y" RWD
if they were to have the same power to weight same rubber same driver on the same day - the rwd will always win because of the LAWS OF PHYSICS.

OK, I pick.........a freezing cold winter's day in Detriot with snow on the ground.

I think your physics lesson just failed...

[Ghiadude]

I didn't resort to personal insults to make a point. the fact that your incapable of doing so means you need to calm down and think about things. I said all things being equal. it still stands regardless of your examples in fact your example reinforces my point that fwd is not inherently flawed though some of it's proponents may be

[Ghiadude]

Originally Posted by jpd80

OK, I pick.........a freezing cold winter's day in Detriot with snow on the ground.

I think your physics lesson just failed...

What about a car with 50:50 weight distribution ?

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Ghiadude

What about a car with 50:50 weight distribution ?

The nose heavy FWD still wins, they have 60/40 weight distribution..

Pontiac G8 (Commodore) had 50/50 weight distribution and by all reports
is a cow in winter driving compared to a FWD Taurus....

Shape of things to come with Police interceptors...

[cosmo20btt]

It was interesting to watch the Bathurst 12 hour as when it rained the RWD's just tore through the field against the AWD's, most of the FWD's were guarding the the final spot. I think the stand out FWD was the Mazda 3 mps.

[Rev28K]

Originally Posted by Ghiadude

Huh? Targa Tasmania is australias premier Tarmac rally and without looking at the results over the years(I'm on my phone the browser sucks) I'll bet that it's almost never been won by a fwd. It's almost always awd then rwd you can guess the last one


Here's some targa results
http://www.targa.org.au/Results/2009.html

It's never been won by a Fwd but Greg Crick's DC2R was getting very close to Jim Richard's 911 times in a couple of stages. I personally think that Crick was driving at 11/10ths and JR may have been doing 7/10ths.

In sprints that I have done my FWD jumps up the order in wet runs (partly cause the slick shod bug grunters won't/can't run).

In the days of Group E racing Honda CRXs would be right up there with VL turbos and Toyota Supras.

Never underestimate the effects of good suspension geometry & tuning

[Ghiadude]

Then what about a rear engined car porsche, vw beetle, old fiats and so on - them too?and when the snow thaws ? what about when conditions suit rwd ? My point is saying fwd handles better based on circumstances that include variables isn't correct. I concede( and have the whole time) that a fwd chassis that's well sorted will handle but not in all circumstances in fact not in most. Remember, I said when all else is equal.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Ghiadude

I didn't resort to personal insults to make a point. the fact that your incapable of doing so means you need to calm down and think about things. I said all things being equal. it still stands regardless of your examples in fact your example reinforces my point that fwd is not inherently flawed though some of it's proponents may be

But that's the point, a FWD car and a RWD car are never truly equal.
They can never be when the weight of an engine is balanced over the front of the car.

And for the record, when you throw out an open challenge,
you better be able to accept the result when it doesn't go your way.

Originally Posted by Ghiadude

Then what about a rear engined car porsche, vw beetle, old fiats and so on - them too?and when the snow thaws ? what about when conditions suit rwd ? My point is saying fwd handles better based on circumstances that include variables isn't correct. I concede( and have the whole time) that a fwd chassis that's well sorted will handle but not in all circumstances in fact not in most. Remember, I said when all else is equal.

Good to see you're circumspect and if you'd come back with that example
I'd say yes but have you seen a Porsche in snowy driving?
That sticky rubber they need is worth zilch in the snow and ice,
back to pendulum fish tails. Ask older Porsche drivers about that.

Horses for courses

The RWD doesn't always win and for the most part the battle was won years ago,
most people in winter areas of the USA shy away from RWDs in snow driving,
it's just better to have the steering wheels do the driving and AWD can get dangerous too,
many people pile through way too fast for the conditions lulled by a sense of grip.

[Rev28K]

Originally Posted by Ghiadude

Huh? Targa Tasmania is australias premier Tarmac rally and without looking at the results over the years(I'm on my phone the browser sucks) I'll bet that it's almost never been won by a fwd. It's almost always awd then rwd you can guess the last one


Here's some targa results
http://www.targa.org.au/Results/2009.html

It's never been won by a Fwd but Greg Crick's DC2R was getting very close to Jim Richard's 911 times in a couple of stages. I personally think that Crick was driving at 11/10ths and JR may have been doing 7/10ths.
When Group E racing was around Honda CRXs would worry VL turbos and Toyota Supras in the wet.
In sprints that I have done my FWD jumps up the order in wet runs (partly cause the slick shod big grunters won't/can't run).

Never underestimate the effect of good suspension design & tuning and a really good progressive diff on Fwd cars. Remember that a rear wheel drive or 4 whhel drive will add kilos which will hurt a small car more.

[Danny]

Good point Rev28K,

I haven't read the last 6 pages of incoherent blabber by some of these incoherent FWD bashers (and its only a couple of you, the rest - and most I know, is i've been an AFF'er from the very start - seem very well read on modern FWD), so forgive me if I repeat anything.

To the thread starter - have you ever driven A proper FWD sports hatch or car? Because you seem to overlook anything smaller "than a Corolla".. You see in my sig is one of my two cars, a Clio Renaultsport 182 Cup. If you have ever cared to read, this is one of the best hot hatches ever made, and I can assure you this it's chassis balance, roadholding, and grip, is uncomparable to anything I've driven this side of 70 grand. Not to mention its power of 131kW stock from a 2.0l and 0-100 of 6.8s compared to oh, what were the figures of a stock EDXR8? Well the sprint was 195kW and 0-100 of 7.0 so I take it that the stock XR8 wasn't any more than that (and yes I understand yours is modified, but a F4R 2.0l I4 from a 182 can be modded too).

I assure you that this car I REFUSE to get rid of no matter what else I have, It is fun and quick and puts a smile to your face, It holds its own against any Aussie V8 Pre the gen IV down the straights (and yes it DOES pull ahead of many), and then belts them round corners with not a hint of wheelspin from its front wheels. Hell, I forget that it actually is FWD, its just that good.

I think you need a good reading sesh about the world my friend, your stuck in Noah's Ark.

Oh and please don't fob me off as some gay Renault Clio fan as some with your attitude may do, I just appreciate a good drivers car when I enter one, which is why the Clio still entertains me on weekends and around tracks.

My other mode of transport that that is wonderful becasue of its sheer power fun and working ability you may ask? Its an FG FPV F6 Ute. Its my work car, my OTHER pride and Joy, and YES I bought that too because I APPRECIATE a great car when I drive one, and sorry but my little Renault is JUST as much fun as the F6 Ute, such that I often have difficulty on which car I'd rather take.

Cheers guys,

-Danny

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by Danny

Good point Rev28K,

I haven't read the last 6 pages of incoherent blabber by some of these incoherent FWD bashers (and its only a couple of you, the rest - and most I know, is i've been an AFF'er from the very start - seem very well read on modern FWD), so forgive me if I repeat anything.

To the thread starter - have you ever driven A proper FWD sports hatch or car? Because you seem to overlook anything smaller "than a Corolla".. You see in my sig is one of my two cars, a Clio Renaultsport 182 Cup. If you have ever cared to read, this is one of the best hot hatches ever made, and I can assure you this it's chassis balance, roadholding, and grip, is uncomparable to anything I've driven this side of 70 grand. Not to mention its power of 131kW stock from a 2.0l and 0-100 of 6.8s compared to oh, what were the figures of a stock EDXR8? Well the sprint was 195kW and 0-100 of 7.0 so I take it that the stock XR8 wasn't any more than that (and yes I understand yours is modified, but a F4R 2.0l I4 from a 182 can be modded too).

I assure you that this car I REFUSE to get rid of no matter what else I have, It is fun and quick and puts a smile to your face, It holds its own against any Aussie V8 Pre the gen IV down the straights (and yes it DOES pull ahead of many), and then belts them round corners with not a hint of wheelspin from its front wheels. Hell, I forget that it actually is FWD, its just that good.

I think you need a good reading sesh about the world my friend, your stuck in Noah's Ark.

Oh and please don't fob me off as some gay Renault Clio fan as some with your attitude may do, I just appreciate a good drivers car when I enter one, which is why the Clio still entertains me on weekends and around tracks.

My other mode of transport that that is wonderful becasue of its sheer power fun and working ability you may ask? Its an FG FPV F6 Ute. Its my work car, my OTHER pride and Joy, and YES I bought that too because I APPRECIATE a great car when I drive one, and sorry but my little Renault is JUST as much fun as the F6 Ute, such that I often have difficulty on which car I'd rather take.

Cheers guys,

-Danny

Top post.

As an owner of a Super pursuit (big power RWD) and a JCW tuned Mini Cooper S (performance FWD), I can see his point and could not agree more. Pity some here do not get to experience and enjoy the same variety.

Yes the ute wins in a straight line, eventually. But put a bend in the road, or many bends, and the ute does not stand a chance (in any conditions).

[Danny]

Repect Gecko GT. I absolutely LOVE anything Mini when JCW is thrown into the mix. Driven both old and New S's and love both (although the new is faster its a little less raw but fantatsic nonetheless and I do prefer it) What JCW mods are you running?

[Pat Riley]

Looks like the whole RWD vs FWD saga has been done to death now (8 pages worth). Can the mods please lock this now so we can move on from what could otherwise be another 8 pages of the same old banter?

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by Danny

Repect Gecko GT. I absolutely LOVE anything Mini when JCW is thrown into the mix. Driven both old and New S's and love both (although the new is faster its a little less raw but fantatsic nonetheless and I do prefer it) What JCW mods are you running?

Just the engine tuning kit at this stage but the suspension pack (coil overs, sway bars and strut brace) and brake kit (4 spot brembos) are in its future. Some of the new hatches are amazing cars, wold love to have a go at Clio Renaultsport one day.

[Danny]

Good work Gecko! That Mini sounds unreal. I'd imagine it would easily pep the 182 with the JCW stuff, as stock they're almost the same in my experience. Cheers bud.

BA falcon, Ford make both RWD and FWD cars as well, and this is a motoring topic, if it makes you feel uncomfortable, then please, move on and find another thread that interests you.

enjoy,

-Danny

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by BA Falcon

Looks like the whole RWD vs FWD saga has been done to death now (8 pages worth). Can the mods please lock this now so we can move on from what could otherwise be another 8 pages of the same old banter?

Ford's own testing shows that the roughly 80% of a passenger vehicle's time is spent between idle and 50% throttle. What their testing also shows is that about 80% of the features provided by FWD and RWD products actually overlap and it's only at the extremes do vehicle choices come into play when the buyer wants performance or bad weather grip.

So if 80% of the buying public don't give a hoot about drive delivery, it's only down to what takes priority, a car that reflects Australian driving needs and preferences or someone else's modified platform.

[DJR-351]

I have a few old movies of the mini's holding their own around Bathurst many years ago, not on the straights maybe, but over the top they where snapping at the heels of the best that Ford and the General had to offer....

[Spudz27]

O.K so today it finally dawned on me I made the stupidist purchase ever. I aquaplaned at 110kp/h in my camry, nothing like having no grip or steering at that speed, just go where it takes you. Was ****ing scary considering my partner and 2 kids were in the car. Now in all the falcons I have owned, if ever I aquaplaned it was nice to still have some steering control. IMHO being a regular driver of a FWD today proved to me a RWD is safer.

[Yellow_Festiva]

I fail to see how being RWD / FWD will have different steering controls when aqua planing seeing as if you were aqua planing your front tyres are no longer making contact with the roads surface.

Too many variables.. tyre quality, tread depth, vehicle speed, depth of water... RWD / FWD IMO has little to do with it.

[Rodp]

Originally Posted by EDfutura25

O.K so today it finally dawned on me I made the stupidist purchase ever. I aquaplaned at 110kp/h in my camry, nothing like having no grip or steering at that speed, just go where it takes you. Was ****ing scary considering my partner and 2 kids were in the car. Now in all the falcons I have owned, if ever I aquaplaned it was nice to still have some steering control. IMHO being a regular driver of a FWD today proved to me a RWD is safer.

Aquaplaning in a FWD, RWD, AWD makes no difference. You have no grip, your tyres can turn any way they like and your car will plow straight ahead. Otherwise you're not aquaplaning.

Seems to me that you should have been driving slower under those conditions.

[Danny]

Amen RodP and Yellow Festiva you took the words out of my mouth.

Was about to say the same thing.

[jpd80]

Has anyone else noticed this trait:

On roads with big puddles of standing water, I notice that FWDs tend to pull left and right as they
drive through the puddles but Falcons and Commodores seem less affected under similar conditions.
Not that the occupants are in any imminent danger, it just makes more work for the driver, all those
little annoying steering corrections. Maybe that's another factor - our less than perfect Aussie roads.

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by EDfutura25

Now in all the falcons I have owned, if ever I aquaplaned it was nice to still have some steering control. .

Any car that has steering control is not aquaplaning. Just for the theoretical point, two cars equal mass, equal speed, one RWD and the other FWD. It is the RWD that will aquaplane first because the FWD has a greater weight bias to the front, therefore it would take more force than the RWD to lift those wheels off the road surface.

By the way, aquaplaning is never the fault of the vehicle designer, just the nut behind the wheel.

Good work Gecko! That Mini sounds unreal. I'd imagine it would easily pep the 182 with the JCW stuff, as stock they're almost the same in my experience. Cheers bud.

Hey Danny

After reading your sig I am not so sure, they are some healthy figures you have and you do have a 100 kg weight advantage. You actually have a power advantage but at 280 nm,I guess I probably have the torque advantage, it would be real close and so much fun. Lets go play!

[Rodp]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Has anyone else noticed this trait:

On roads with big puddles of standing water, I notice that FWDs tend to pull left and right as they
drive through the puddles but Falcons and Commodores seem less affected under similar conditions.
Not that the occupants are in any imminent danger, it just makes more work for the driver, all those
little annoying steering corrections. Maybe that's another factor - our less than perfect Aussie roads.

I've had a Falcon and a Commodore pull violently to the left after going through a deep puddle, again, I don't think it's a trait of a FWD.

[DJR-351]

Originally Posted by EDfutura25

O.K so today it finally dawned on me I made the stupidist purchase ever. I aquaplaned at 110kp/h in my camry, nothing like having no grip or steering at that speed, just go where it takes you. Was ****ing scary considering my partner and 2 kids were in the car. Now in all the falcons I have owned, if ever I aquaplaned it was nice to still have some steering control. IMHO being a regular driver of a FWD today proved to me a RWD is safer.

Try not to take this to heart, but it maybe safer for your partner and the kids to catch a bus...

[cosmo20btt]

RACQ have always stated that you should always have your best tyres where the power is, as there is hardly any weight on the rear wheels, on a FWD as soon as you aquaplane you have zero grip on the front and very little in the rear due to little weight, RWDs when aquaplaning will have zero grip on the front but at there is sufficient weight to keep power at rear wheels or to brake. how ever quality of tyres and tread can come into play depending on cars.

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by cosmo20btt

RACQ have always stated that you should always have your best tyres where the power is, as there is hardly any weight on the rear wheels, on a FWD as soon as you aquaplane you have zero grip on the front and very little in the rear due to little weight, RWDs when aquaplaning will have zero grip on the front but at there is sufficient weight to keep power at rear wheels or to brake. how ever quality of tyres and tread can come into play depending on cars.

What a load of rubbish. For a start, in a aquaplaning car the last thing you want is power. You need all power off and allow water resistance against the tyres to wash speed off to a point that the tyres contact the road again. Brakes on a aquaplaning vehicle are ineffective due to the fact that no tyres maintain a good contact patch with the road. Also only 20-30% of your braking power is at the rear wheels, try disconnecting your front brakes and then stopping to see this. So how effective is braking going to be on the rear with 20% of braking power on a wet slippery road considering the rear wheels are more likely to slide rather than grip.

Also a aquaplaning vehicle is already slowing due to loss of momentum due to increased resistance from the water, this shifts the weigh forward, weighting the front wheels and results in the first wheels to have true road contact being the fronts. By your theory, the crappiest tyres on you RWD which are at the front will be in contact with the road, whilst your good tyres will still be unweighted on a wet road, good plan.

Perhaps RACQ should have a reality check and state that it is always better to have your best tyres where the greatest vehicle control functions happen (steering and braking), which is the front. I would be very surprised if this is not actually what they would advise.

I think it is completely moronic to quote the instance of an aquaplaning vehicle as reason to not buy FWD or why FWD is rubbish.

[just_pazz]

I've always run my good tyres on the front... with my not so goods on the rears, as oversteer is more fun than anything. Not getting involved in this argument though, but that was what I was always taught.