Aussies dead in Shot down plane crash over Ukraine.

[BPXR6T]

Originally Posted by jpblue1000

Its pretty hard to fly from Europe to Australia without flying over or very close to contested territories, areas where there are active wars or psudo border disputes
A direct line from Australia to Europe flies over, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Syria, Iran, Iraq, Israel, Lebanon and Sri Lanka. Divert around these places and you fly over Kazakhstan, China, Russia and Ukraine, egypt, sudan, somalia, et al

Have a look at this map to see how much of the world would potentially could be a no fly zone due to conflict and risk
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...rmed_conflicts

The authorities had not closed the flight corridor and I am sure MH had undertaken risk analysis, unfortunately they were wrong and had it not been for MH370 we wouldn't be doubting their management and decision making ability. had it been one of the other airlines we probably wouldnt be asking the question 'should they have been there'
They had legal authority to fly there and unfortunately were randomly targeted and all of them are dead, through no fault of their own.
It will be unfair to use our fellow countrymen's deaths in this tragedy to push our own 'cheap' local political, social and race agendas.

JP

What cheap political race agendas. I've never read such a load of crap on this forum. Pffft, trying to call people racist for asking a question that should be asked. Yes without MH370 the question would still be asked. WTF were they doing flying over a war zone when two planes had been shot down previously. You call that sound risk analysis. Sounds like a struggling airline taking shortcuts to me.

[jpblue1000]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

The difference between those other war zones is that their local rebel group doesn't have their hands on this kind of weaponry to hit something that high up in the air.

The only group which would most likely have that weaponry would be ISIS or what ever they are called because of the amount of $$$ they have behind them and their training.

You are right not all of them have the surface to air capability. But many of them do or one of the combatants have. Many of those conflicts are anti government or funded by some other super power, thus the government side has the weapons or the 'rebels' are funded, supplied or like in Ukraine the rebels have captured government equipment. It doesn't matter who has the weapon it is capable of damage from a distance when used for the wrong reason or used badly. As mentioned, even the level headed, well trained and neutral US has shot down commercial airlines.

But when you are flying past, over or near any war zone the risks are greater for being used as a political target to highlight an issue, force attention, seek retribution or many other reasons. This does not need to be performed by SAM technology when an under-pant bomb, or shoe bomb or other yet realised method will suffice.

Look at Lockerbie, a government sanctioned act of retribution.
So as long as the desire to cause havoc exists the technology, ability or temptation is there, But also the rest of the world must continue, sometimes the world and the conflict edges blur and innocents die for no reason of theirs.

The blame can only be placed squarely upon the perpetrators not the victims.

JP

[jpblue1000]

Originally Posted by BPXR6T

What cheap political race agendas. I've never read such a load of crap on this forum. Pffft, trying to call people racist for asking a question that should be asked. Yes without MH370 the question would still be asked. WTF were they doing flying over a war zone when two planes had been shot down previously. You call that sound risk analysis. Sounds like a struggling airline taking shortcuts to me.

Missed the point mate!
one of our regulars tried part blaming our local politicians and the US president for this tragedy... hence the inverted commas''

I also didnt comment on the quality of their 'risk analysis' just that I'm sure it was probably undertaken. The point is if Airlines had to avoid conflict zones of any type we couldn't fly and the terrorists win!

JP

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by jpblue1000

You are right not all of them have the surface to air capability. But many of them do or one of the combatants have. Many of those conflicts are anti government or funded by some other super power, thus the government side has the weapons or the 'rebels' are funded, supplied or like in Ukraine the rebels have captured government equipment. It doesn't matter who has the weapon it is capable of damage from a distance when used for the wrong reason or used badly. As mentioned, even the level headed, well trained and neutral US has shot down commercial airlines.

Except the only thing these funded rebels tend to have is FIM92A (which the USA supplied to the Mujahideen in the 80s) or IGLA surface-air missiles which wouldn't present an issue to a commercial airliner flying at 33,000 feet, rather than something like BUK which will hit a plane up to 80,000 feet.

The only time IGLA/FIM92A type weapons would threaten an airliner is during landing/take off which is exactly what happened in Ukraine earlier except with a military plane that time:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraini...-76_shoot-down

A nation will have something like BUK but very few smaller rebel groups would have something similar.

If you read that article it mentions BUK can be used standalone but it doesn't have capability to see transponder identify friendly/foe when used by itself.

[Fordman1]

This talk of "Missile Systems" is really superfelous.

In the end some "Blokes with guns", and by other reports "drunks", are trying to be tough by refusing access to Officials that have been sent to investigate the scene.

I'm furious.

NATO should send troops, and make sure this scene of devastation is protected for investigation, and that our country men's / women's remains are treated with respect.

This region is ferel / lawless.

[Bobman]

Two planes shot down before MH17 were by shoulder-fired missiles.

I don't believe any planes had been taken out with a BUK in the region prior to this and there were several major airlines flying in the same area, so the plane was likely targeted for a reason.

[ILLaViTaR]

All immature private schoolboy attacks do is alienate our relationships with other nations. Indonesia, Russia and China to be exact so far. Most people in parliament aren't stupid enough to go there unless there's some real need to..


What have we gained from verbally attacking Russia besides putting our own nation closer to the fire? Glad we showed them!!

[BHDOGS]

No the reason Europe has remained so quite is because russia supplys there precious gas. I am a labour man through and through but i support his comments 100% as for putin who cares what angers him hes a twat who needs to be put down.

[Fordman1]

Originally Posted by ILLaViTaR

All immature private schoolboy attacks do is alienate our relationships with other nations. Indonesia, Russia and China to be exact so far. Most people in parliament aren't stupid enough to go there unless there's some real need to..

What have we gained from verbally attacking Russia besides putting our own nation closer to the fire? Glad we showed them!!

So you're non political are you ?

[Dash_XR]

I believe it's up to 37 now? Think the thread title should probably be changed.

[ILLaViTaR]

Originally Posted by Barraxr8

So you're non political are you ?

As much as everyone else?

Stop trying to start **** as usual, everyone else seems to manage to post political views on here without being provoked so give it a rest. It was more of a character attack on an individual anyway wasn't political. ie "krudd" wasn't considered political on here for all those years.

[Fordman1]

Originally Posted by ILLaViTaR

As much as everyone else?

Stop trying to start **** as usual, everyone else seems to manage to post political views on here without being provoked so give it a rest.

Precious are we ?

[ILLaViTaR]

Originally Posted by Barraxr8

Precious are we ?

I didn't buy a GT-F so you can say what you like about them it won't hurt my feelings

[GasoLane]

Please take your arguments to PM.

Unless it has something to do with the original topic it's not needed here.

[Fordman1]

Originally Posted by ILLaViTaR

I didn't buy a GT-F so you can say what you like about them it won't hurt my feelings

Like I said I think you may be precious.

We as a nation need to stand up and give 'respect' and 'stand up' for our murdered countrymen / women.

You may not think so, but I do !

It may mean we need to tell a 'super power' some home truths.

Maybe some 'private schoolboy' comments / 'attacks' are appropriate ?

[MITCHAY]

None of their countrymen were on the flight and supposedly they didn't shoot it down so why are they hindering officials from doing their job?

Can you blame people for thinking this straight lines all the way to the top in some way shape or form given all of this.

Apparently the Ukraine army is moving in now

http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel...-1226996517311

[Fordman1]

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

None of their countrymen were on the flight and supposedly they didn't shoot it down so why are they hindering officials from doing their job?

Can you blame people for thinking this straight lines all the way to the top in some way shape or form given all of this.

Apparently the Ukraine army is moving in now

http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel...-1226996517311

Good on for the Ukraine Army for trying, but I vote for NATO to clean these Thugs up !

[Auslandau]

Originally Posted by ILLaViTaR

All immature private schoolboy attacks do is alienate our relationships with other nations. Indonesia, Russia and China to be exact so far. Most people in parliament aren't stupid enough to go there unless there's some real need to..


What have we gained from verbally attacking Russia besides putting our own nation closer to the fire? Glad we showed them!!

Sometimes you have to show you got balls. Maybe this is the time? Rather than sitting back being dictated to in fear of upsetting the bullies, even if its just some heated words or some resilience, it should be done and strongly.

Really ..... people fight for lesser things. This is something that does need to be pursued even if you are the kinder kids taking on the High School blokes.

Show that this isn't acceptable and prove to those that are effected by this that we have some balls and wills stand up when required ..... even if it does mean upsetting a few countries.

Do we only get tough with small countries? That is not how it should work. I would hope that the country would be behind me if I was personally effected.

[Fordman1]

Originally Posted by Auslandau

Sometimes you have to show you got balls. Maybe this is the time? Rather than sitting back being dictated to in fear of upsetting the bullies, even if its just some heated words or some resilience, it should be done and strongly.

Really ..... people fight for lesser things. This is something that does need to be pursued even if you are the kinder kids taking on the High School blokes.

Show that this isn't acceptable and prove to those that are effected by this that we have some balls and wills stand up when required ..... even if it does mean upsetting a few countries.

Do we only get tough with small countries? That is not how it should work. I would hope that the country would be behind me if I was personally effected.

Lovely Auslandau,

I couldn't say it better.

We are so called 'minnows', but we can't accept this 'criminal act' without standing up for our people, even if it means it is with a nuclear super power.

[cheap]

Love him or hate him, I think Larry Pickering has nailed it.

http://pickeringpost.com/story/-puti...d-of-pain/3560

PUTIN IN A WORLD OF PAIN
... as is Malaysian Airlines

As the UN Security Council meets to thrash out a resolution damning one of its five permanent Members, Russia’s “action man”, Vladimir Putin is frozen in “inaction” between two awful options, with either likely to see him humiliated and banished to the Siberian salt mines.

Putin is desperate to distance himself from MH17 but world opinion has placed him front and centre. Any denial of culpability will be lost in irrefutable evidence. Any admission of guilt will brand him forever a war criminal.

Barack Obama is choosing his critical words wisely as he too supplied arms to redneck hoons in Syria, via the CIA, and the world is now faced with a terrorist State.

If Putin surrenders Ukraine, which he now must do, he becomes isolated in Eastern Europe and under crippling sanctions. If he tries to maintain a militia in Eastern Ukraine, which he now can’t do, the Eurozone, despite its economic links to Russia, will be forced to disown him.

If he uses Russia’s power of veto over any UN resolution he will become an international pariah and invoke the ire of even China. Russia’s place as a permanent Member of the Security Council could vanish.

If he agrees to Australia’s strident wording of the imminent resolution, he will have no choice but to admit his involvement in the deaths of 300 innocents along with his support of a ruthless, violent and lawless bunch of paid Putin mercenaries.

Putin is caught between multiple rocks and hard places, and there seems no reputable way out.

Meanwhile Malaysia Airlines executives are dodging the spotlight and many unanswered questions. Aviation safety expert Robert Mark claimed the MH17 flight took a route 300 miles to the north of the usual path.

Mark said., "I can only tell you as a commercial pilot myself that if we had been routed that way, with what's been going on in the Ukraine and the Russian border over the last few weeks and months, I would never have accepted that route.

"I went into the FlightAware system, which we all use these days, to see where airplanes started and where they tracked, and I looked back at the last two weeks' worth of MH17 flights, which was this one. There were MH17 versions that were 300 miles south of where this one was."

The graphic speaks for itself and is damning of Malaysian Airlines’ concern for passenger safety. Their statement that, “15 out of 16 airlines use this route. It's a safe route... most other countries use this route”, is an outright lie.

As reported here yesterday, “The pilot in command alone dictates the course of his aircraft and he can request a quadrantal change in altitude or course at any time for any reason.”

It appears the words “Islam”, “airline” and “honesty” don’t belong in the same sentence.

What goes around comes around, sayonara Vlad !

[Dash_XR]

MAD (mutual assured destruction) means neither side can use their nukes without all but guaranteed complete annihilation of each other, which makes being a nuclear super power pretty much null an void.

What it does me though is that if it does kick off conventional war is the only outcome which would mean years of an endless body count. What's the point?

Putin knows this and is calling the wests bluff.

[ILLaViTaR]

Originally Posted by Barraxr8

Like I said I think you may be precious.

We as a nation need to stand up and give 'respect' and 'stand up' for our murdered countrymen / women.

You may not think so, but I do !

It may mean we need to tell a 'super power' some home truths.

Maybe some 'private schoolboy' comments / 'attacks' are appropriate ?

So what have we gained out of this besides further jeopardizing our relationship with Russia if I may ask?

Wehave always safely sat at the back when in conflict but these remarks of his are putting us in the frontline. All the private schoolboy quirks are going to accomplish is the loss of more Australian lives. Like i said good on him.

And of course I feel we should stand up but obviously it's a lot more complicated and touchy than that!

[Fordman1]

Originally Posted by ILLaViTaR

So what have we gained out of this besides further jeopardizing our relationship with Russia if I may ask?

We usually sit at the back when in conflict but this renegade fool wants to be America and is putting us in the frontline. All the private schoolboy quirks are going to accomplish is the loss of more Australian lives. Like i said good on him.

Good for you.

Australians are dead, let's bring them home.

Go play on your PC.

[ILLaViTaR]

Originally Posted by Barraxr8

Good for you.

Australians are dead, let's bring them home.

Go play on your PC.

How is putting us in Russia's crosshairs going to prevent the loss of more Australian lives? and 298 people died.. not just australians over 80 of them were kids which I'd put before your perceived citizenship entitlements.

[Fordman1]

Originally Posted by ILLaViTaR

How is putting us in Russia's crosshairs going to prevent the loss of more Australian lives? and 298 people died.. not just australians over 80 of them were kids which I'd put before your citizenship.

You need to go on 60 minutes and tell Australia what is needed in this time.

Tell me how you go......

[ILLaViTaR]

Originally Posted by Barraxr8

You need to go on 60 minutes and tell Australia what is needed in this time.

Tell me how you go......

Lol give it a rest it's sad really.

[Fordman1]

Originally Posted by ILLaViTaR

Lol give it a rest it's sad really.

Yes ...

Say hello to Vlad.

[nstg8a]

Plenty are saying NATO should move in and secure the site, but really, is anyone naive enough to belief these so called 'thugs' are really that?

It's been obvious that the Russian military is supplying weapons and people, so if NATO go in they are in effect going up against the might of the Russian army.


Would people support Abbott sending in Australian troops? To help secure the area.


As for Putin being caught between a rock and a hard place, well, I'd suggest if that true then that's a very very bad thing for the rest of us.
An animal is most dangerous when cornered, Putin would come out fighting no matter what. And he has the capability to cause a lot harm to a lot of people.

[BHDOGS]

putin is a pussy cat he knows he cant invade urkaine directly hence his proxy war the days of invading countrys and starting wars is over if you intend on remaining in power for the long term that is. The ukraine rolled over when he took crimea which is why he tried his luck with the eastern part of ukraine to begin with soon as they stood up for themselves he started back tracking he might have the might of the russian army behind him but its not the world class army its made out to be its power has always been in numbers but even he doesnt have the numbers to take over the planet lets not forget china and russia arnt best buds anymore. China is very much a direct threat to russias interests and a frenemy more then anything. to commit his armys to europe might very well see china rush in to aid the international community and capture some nice gas and oil fields for itself. Its swings and roundabouts.

[castellan]

Originally Posted by BHDOGS

No the reason Europe has remained so quite is because russia supplys there precious gas. I am a labour man through and through but i support his comments 100% as for putin who cares what angers him hes a twat who needs to be put down.

Putin is a great man ! he is more of a man than any other in the world today, it is not his fault at all.

What do you think he could do ?
Most of the people are Russians and they want to be united as one with Russia.

The USA should of kept out of this from the start and the whole thing would be over before now.

The USA has a stupid fool agenda they are playing games with, and it has only put the world steeping backwards ( they only do more harm to the poorest people not the rich at all ) with all there rubbish.

I say give it up USA and leave it to people in there own back yard to deal with like west Europe as they know what and how to deal with it all, not the USA as they are just so full of themselves to come in ranting and raving ( don't embarrass us ) take a hike ! the bastards don't respect that people could of ended up getting killed, and that's the main thing I see, not don't embarrass us, don't embarrass us !

The Media are so full of themselves but, hey all this make them big money they love it.

I understand the whole thing but this was not the way to deal with it all from the first place and it's stuff like such that can spark big wars and I sure as hell don't want that.
If it was not for Putin who is in control, boy you would want to look out ! we are not dealing with a little pip squeak nation hear, to be just treated like some school boy ! because they have the ability to walk straight through you.