E85 vs THE REST!

[FreddyDUZ747]

The beauty with Ethanol etc is you can have a real fat tune on say low E70's that will still run flawlessly but still have enough room for the fluctuation in Eflex if the content is of a higher percentage.Running low 11AFR's on E70 will have enough left in the tune to handle E85 at WOT while still remaining within scope.

I run the stuff that has 98 added to it and get it for $2 a litre,its the only place in Adelaide that sells it out of the pump.

If I was running Eflex id be having a winter and summer tune to suit the change of ethanol accordingly.

[dieseltrain79]

Whilst that may be true , no one really spends big bucks and tunes a car for a " safe tune on a sub par fuel " , as i think e-flex is . Its too inconsistent and i think more people will end up doing damage than good .

I understand E85 fuels have a higher threshold against detonation , but i think people are still looking past the fact its octane rating may be all over the place .

[Giant]

Originally Posted by dieseltrain79

If your running martini e85 I'm assuming you don't have a Kia ;)

I'll put it another term ...

If I told you gasoline was 100% no ethanol would you tune on it with knowing its either 95 or 98 octane ?

Answer is NO every time .

Anyways I hope people understand my point . Yes E85 is great , but until they show an octane rating , then I doubt you can tune consistency into it unless tuning for each batch like Joes Capri .

Pretty much the same issuse with LPG with butane and propane and the diff octane rating.

The same reason why a lot of racers use race fuel, consistancy and safety.

If E85 was 85% and was always mixed with 98 from the pump, alot more cars would be tunned for it.

I Also think you could add a fuel or engine warmer to avoid the need for winter blends?

[Psi-Pop]

Seeing that pump E85 can be mixed with various octane rating to start with can it be corrected by a way of octane booster?

Will adding a octane booster to a pump E85 ensure that its consistent to being mixed with a 98 fuel?

I have two local united that are E85 Im going to go and start testing them each week after buying a quickfuel tester to get a feel for variations of ethanol.

[Giant]

I know Nulon Pro octane booster varies in how much it can boost the octane depending on the fuel.

Also the octane number is only part of the issuse. The % of ethanol is a bigger problem.

Could you use a small tank of petrol to start the car until up to operating temp then switch over to higher % ethanol blend?

You could alway buy 20lt or 200lt drums of E98 and use it adjust the pump stuff so your always running a consistent percentage.

So you could use your tester kit and then adjust if required.

Also if you fit a wideband o2 sensor you can always monitor your AFR. You can also use a data logger to track any changes and make sure its running safe.

I dout it would matter if you where running a fat tune on your daily driver it may cost a little bit of power and some extra fuel but it will be safe, and still provide decent gains over 98 octane.

[prasac]

we tried a couple different types, the Race Blend from Envy Dyno/ Platinum Race Products was almost E95 and it was mixed with 98-octane. that proved to be the best for torque and we ran the quickest time. it had moreso to do with it being more ethanol that the torque was up. if MPH is measured in HP then United E85 gets the nod, it is more like E90. the car at the track has shown the most HP with the United.

the best octane booster for E85 is more ethanol, forget the octane booster crap you see in the shops.

the Caltex stuff is all over the place with ethanol %, that stuff is more for the flex fuel cars with ethanol analysers that automatically adjust the tune. if your driving on the street the Caltex stuff is alright, but for racing you want to make sure you have close to what the car was tuned on.

[Psi-Pop]

Okay as the United stuff seems to be better and is only 5 mins away I think its going to get the nod. Ill always check the content before hand, even for cruising around the street for peace of mind.

[prasac]

Originally Posted by Psi-Pop

Okay as the United stuff seems to be better and is only 5 mins away I think its going to get the nod. Ill always check the content before hand, even for cruising around the street for peace of mind.

different states may mean different mixes, but if you're checking content all good. we have been very happy with the United, its never been more than 5% difference, with only such a small margin you don't even have to worry.

[Psi-Pop]

Okay can i add just ethanol with a alcohol content of 95-96% to bring up the mix? I may or may not distill ethanol for other purposes. I could cheapen it up and use top off batches if so.

[StockieXR6T]

E85 like Methanol is an oxygenated fuel, it is leaner than PULP for the same volume of fuel due to the fact is is carrying oxygen molecules, effectively you are getting more oxygen into the engine like a turbo but in the fuel.

Cheers

Joel

[prasac]

Originally Posted by Psi-Pop

Okay can i add just ethanol with a alcohol content of 95-96% to bring up the mix? I may or may not distill ethanol for other purposes. I could cheapen it up and use top off batches if so.

yeah u can do that for sure.

[Giant]

I was talking to a guy running a wet NOS kit and was using E85 for the extra fuel he was using a bigger jets for the fuel to allow for the extra fuel required and he said that he had never had a issuse with detanation since switching to E85. He said he was also able to run the same timing advance running NOS as he does with his normal tune without NOS.

[as_fordman]

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hi just here to see if anyone has run E85 on a cleveland n/a and with nos ........or is it only good for turbo applications ????????
.at the moment running epc race fuel A8D ( turbo-nos ) at $12 a liter its very expencive ,
just thought E85 would be a cheeper option
at the moment running 300kw@w n/a
with 250 shot of nos ran 450kw@w
if i can get same or even more power would be great
already have the big pumps and fuel line , so fuel volume is no issue
i normally run a 950cfm hp hollie, and have just bought a 1050cfm E85 carby to try it out
also what mixture do i need to run as i am told afr are done in lamder around 0.80 i was told
any info would be great

[xr6t_ute]

E85 and Nos..maybe Prasac might have a bit of info on this.

[dalts]

Yeah it's fine to run both I'll be doing it,you just need the fuel solenoid that's compatable with alcoholol fuel!

[prasac]

yeah E85 and NOS are fine, there is a few guys i have seen running it now without issue. you will just need to make sure you get all the jetting etc correct. with E85 you will see a little pickup in power NA and a little more with the NOS, not huge power only a few % but as you said the fuel you use is very dear.

if you can get your hands on E98 that would be a more viable option has a higher octane rating. im not sure where you are located. AFR/Lambda calculator is here http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/rsrairfuelmeterl.htm we still do our AFR on the gasoline scale makes it easier for us. .8 lambda is around 11.8 AFR the good thing about ethanol is it doesn't make too much difference if its a little lean or a little fat. we make about 15hp less @ 11.3 as it does at 11.9 so it's pretty good. i can't say what mixture to have it at as every engine is different, start at 11.5 and creep up on it slowly, the NA engines do tend to like it around the 12 mark.

[as_fordman]

hi thanks for info help me heaps', i am in dandenong (vic) just got price on fuel e98 from cheeter fuels , $40 for 20 liters ( woo hoo cheap ) better then $250.. let me just get this right i can use gasoline afr as in 11.5 , as i would rather use afr then lambda,i am already using a o2 sensor afr in the exhaust to check and keep an eye on mixtures,
i have had issues with melting spark plugs before , is it true i cant melt plugs with e85 /e98
and i was also told just keep adding timing till stops making power ??????
is it posible to read plugs ( burn / heat marks )

[prasac]

Originally Posted by as_fordman

hi thanks for info help me heaps', i am in dandenong (vic) just got price on fuel e98 from cheeter fuels , $40 for 20 liters ( woo hoo cheap ) better then $250.. let me just get this right i can use gasoline afr as in 11.5 , as i would rather use afr then lambda,i am already using a o2 sensor afr in the exhaust to check and keep an eye on mixtures,
i have had issues with melting spark plugs before , is it true i cant melt plugs with e85 /e98
and i was also told just keep adding timing till stops making power ??????
is it posible to read plugs ( burn / heat marks )

what fuel where you using before? im assuming C16 or Roo16 if you were paying $250 a drum. you might need to take a little timing out but try see how you go the E98 is good stuff.

yes, you can just use AFR that is how we do it. we tune using AFR and run the car on around 11.7 @ WOT, the car seems to like it there, but, as i said all combo's are different.

you can still melt plugs, the only thing with ethanol is it's a bit more detonation proof, stuff the tune and it can go just like any other fuel.

yes, you can still read the plugs, believe it or not we still sometimes do, even with all the technology sometimes the old skool carby guy still comes out in a man it's a little harder, but if you know what your looking for it can be done. we rely more heavily on the AFR sensor than the plug reading itself. the plug reads with E85 are more like methanol, white too lean etc.

i found this article a little while back this may help a little.

when using E-85 reading spark plugs is a very different than reading a gasoline tune-up . First major difference for any alcohol is that you do not read the color off the porcelain around the center electrode. Air to fuel ratios within the combustion chamber are going to be read by the color and texture of thel base ring at the end of the threaded area of the plugs and the color of the first three threads of the spark plugs. The amount of ignition advance is still read as with gasoline plugs by the blue/green line on the plugs ground strap or sometimes referred to as the ground electrode. spark plugs only reflect the tune-up that was in the motor just prior to finish line engine shutdown. In a ¼ mile this is normally just the last 300 feet in high gear but it takes 1000 feet to develop the correct appearance. It is possible for the plugs to indicate a good tune-up at this point but to have run too rich or too lean in first or second gear or at a lower rpm. This makes it possible to damage the engine due to incorrect fuel mixture in the first part of the run and actually be correct at the finish line. ya have to tune each segment incrementally before a full pass. After the initial tune-up runs limited your self to 1/8th mile plug readings before proceeding on to the ¼ mile run. Most the damage to an engine is done in the last 300 feet.The fuel mixture and the ignition timing are totally intertwined as to the effecting the appearance of the spark plug ring at the of the threads and the EGT values. Changing the fuel to air ratio and changing the ignition will both change the combustion chamber temperature. The leaner the mixture or the more advanced the ignition the higher the combustion chamber temperature and the richer the mixture or the more retarded the ignition the lower the combustion chamber temperature. Remember the EGT sensor is outside the combustion chamber so it is only reading the exhaust gas/flame temperature. The more the ignition advance the lower the EGT and more the ignition is retarded the higher the EGT. This opposite effect is caused moving the heat or the flame out of the chamber into the exhaust with a retarded ignition and raising the temperature of the EGT. So having a high EGT because of retarded ignition can and will show less heat in the spark plugs.

It is highly recommended to pick a maximum ignition timing point that is known to be good for your particular engine setup and tune the mixture for that point. This way the tune-up is safe and you can retard the ignition to pull out power without drastically changing your fuel tune-up. You can always go back to the maximum power ignition point without damaging the engine.

Reading For Air Fuel Mixture

An important step first is to degrease the plugs by spraying the threaded end with brake cleaner to remove any deposits of oil that may have been put on the plug during shutdown or when the plug was removed from the head. Most of the spark plug manufactures that make plugs used for racing plate the spark plug shell with cadmium or zinc which oxidizes at a temperatures that corresponds to the correct operating range of the temperatures within the combustion chamber of a racing engine.

As one is tuning the motor and leaning the fuel system out the first part of the plating to start oxidizing will be the ground strap. This oxidation (burning) is uneven in progression around the ring at the end of the threaded part of the plug because the side of the plug ring that was closest to the exhaust valve seat gets hotter faster than the side of the plug ring that is closest to the intake valve seat. The result is a crescent of unburned cadmium that gets smaller as the engine is leaned out. When the cadmium is oxidized and has turned white across the entire face of the plug ring or countersink area just inside the ring the increased temperature then progresses down the side of the plug into the threaded area.

The peak performance is at the point where the cadmium or zinc plating oxidizes and turns white over about 90% of the plug ring and a small crescent of unburned plating is left on the ring. Burning 100% of the plating off the ring all the way down to the first thread will not result in any damage but will also not result in any increase in engine performance. There is a fairly large tuning range between the burned area being at 90% and being burned all the way down to the first thread. Using this large area will ensure that no damage is done to the engine. The next stage from this safe appearance is when the cadmium is burned down to the second thread and the ring loses its white appearance and picks up a greenish tint with small visible bubbles and the ground strap picks up rainbow colors (blues and green when held in the bright sunlight). The strap getting hot enough to exhibit rainbow colors is hot enough to start igniting the fuel mixture too soon and causes pre-ignition/detonation. As the plug gets hotter then sooner the mixture will ignite and this will result in the melting of the ground strap and possible breaking of the plugs porcelain and damage to the upper rod bearings.

By keeping good records of actual performance this peak performance point should be readily seen and matched to the indication on the spark plug ring. When the 90% white ring is obtained with the fastest MPH noted you are now ready to move on to adjusting the ignition timing.

Reading for Ignition Timing

Once the fuel mixture has been adjusted so that 90% of the plug ring is white and all the cylinders have been adjusted so that the white area are the same on all plugs the ignition timing can be now checked by reading the blue line on the ground strap of the plug.

Ignition timing is also directly responsible for the heat in the combustion chamber and therefore the color of the plug's ground strap is a tattletale sign of this temperature because it is thinner than anything else on the plugs and sits right out in the combustion chamber. The ignition timing can be checked by looking at the color of the plug's ground strap and the position of the "blue line" on the strap. The blue line really indicates the point at which the strap has reached annealing temperature of the metal. To help to understand this think of a bar of steel (ground strap) on a table that is being super heated with an acetylene torch at one of the tip ends. As the end heats up and the heat starts moving down the bar you will see a blue line across the bar at some point down the bar away from tip with the torch. This blue line reflects the temperature that is the annealing point of the metal. As the temperature increases the blue line moves further down the bar away from the torch. Similarly, the blue line moves down the spark plug ground strap as you put more heat in the engine.

Assuming that you have adjusted the alcohol fuel mixture correctly and if you are using gold colored ground strap like with an NGK spark plug then not enough timing will show the ground strap as still gold or going light gray maybe with a few bubbles on it after a run. As you advance the ignition and put heat in the engine the plug ground strap will turn darker gray. As the metal turns medium to dark gray you should start looking for the blue line (band) around the ground strap. Ideally, you want this blue line to be just above where the ground strap makes the sharp bend and above the weld. If you advance the ignition too far the blue will disappear off the strap and the strap will pick up rainbow colors (blues and greens). The next step beyond that is to start melting the strap from the tip end and detonation. When you are close to the correct timing then only change the timing by half a degree at a time. If you ignition system has the capability of adjusting the timing of each cylinder independently (ICT) then you can use that feature to have the blue line in the same position on all the plugs. First, adjust the basic timing to get as many of the plugs to have the blue line just at the sharp bend in the strap. Now adjust the ICT to move the blue line to the same point on the remaining plugs. Once all the plugs read the same you can advance the ignition a little at a time to put the blue line just above the weld on the strap or whatever point gives you the best performance.

If your timing is too far retarded then it maybe necessary as you adjust the timing to add a little more fuel to keep the crescent on the end of the plugs white for 90% of the area. Be very careful on adjusting timing because it does not take much change to make a lot of difference. I recommend limiting the changes to half a degree at a time. It is easier to set the timing at a known good degree for the type of engine and adjust and individual cylinder timing (MSD ICT) to balance out all the cylinders and then adjust the mixture to show the correct amount of white area on the metal ring of the plugs as explained above.

[xr6t_ute]

He was using Erc race fuel (turbo /nos) $250 for a 20ltr drum. I can see why you'd want to switch to e85.H

[prasac]

Originally Posted by xr6t_ute

He was using Erc race fuel (turbo /nos) $250 for a 20ltr drum. I can see why you'd want to switch to e85.H

the price of the fuel is why i would say so. why spend $250 a drum when you can get the same power from a $40/drum.

the brothers 2JZ Corolla went from C16 to E85, picked up 50rwhp on the same boost. C16 is roughly $10/L who woulda thought a $1/L fuel was making more than a fuel that cost over 10 times more we had to take timing out, but, it still made more power.

even VP Race Fuels has jumped on the ethanol bandwagon and released their own blend called C85 however from what i hear it's pretty dear, like $80/20L

[xr6t_ute]

Seems to me that the price of race fuel should decrease when more and more people make the switch to e85. I believe they have some competition on there hands finally.

[as_fordman]

thanks for the info will definitly helps heeps, will be buying e98 asap will let you know how i go :-)

[prasac]

Originally Posted by as_fordman

thanks for the info will definitly helps heeps, will be buying e98 asap will let you know how i go :-)

good stuff, that would be great

[xr6t_ute]

$1.27 a ltr for E85 this week at United Hallam Victoria. Not bad compared to 1.55 for premium unleaded. :-)

[dieseltrain79]

But you use up to 30% more fuel , so it's not that much better economically .

[xr6t_ute]

Mine is not as great on 98 due to it being a race tune only, there is a load more timing to increase at cruise level which will help alot, i know of a Ba xr6 turbo with a gt51r, 6 speed auto get 500kms to a tank on the freeway, tuned by nizpro.
So they can be fuel effecient, at WOT you can definately forget it.

[prasac]

Originally Posted by dieseltrain79

But you use up to 30% more fuel , so it's not that much better economically .

depends if you drive WOT everywhere

normal street driving say 15% still saves a couple bucks. the Capri averages around 15L/100km though Joe usually drives like he is driving Miss Daisy

as you know Danny it was dear with the Capri on BP98, apart from $1.50+/L when he would take it to the track would throw a bottle of octane booster in, at $18 plus cost of fuel it added up.

[rednose]

Even if it works out the same, it's nicer on your engine, you make more power and it's better for our planet.

Win win win !!!

[dieseltrain79]

Amen to both posts boys , tOtally agree

[xr6t_ute]

$100.9 for United e85, prices have dropped dramatically in Melbourne , lucky for us down here.