Ford announce extension to Geelong plant beyond 2010

[phillyc]

Originally Posted by Mr Hardware

You're joking, aren't you? Shortening stroke from 99mm to 85mm would not only reduce torque output to only a smidgeon over 300nm, but ruin the whole low end torque characteristic that is unique to the I6. Both incorrect and silly.

I said to reduce the engine capacity with the addition of the DI hardware. Perhaps you chose to overlook that part? DI increases the torque spread and output to about 110Nm/litre in those that have it. 375/380Nm is therefore still highly feasible and the delivery would remain largely unchanged.

If you didn't want to reduce the stroke, then reduce the bore or a combination of both...

[Swordsman88]

Well guys, inspired by your comments against Paul Pottinger, i got off my backside and responded. Here it is (if it ever gets approved)


.................................................. .................................................. ....
While negative media reports RE local car production are hardly surprising these days (after all, the industry isn't exactly rolling in cash), this one is particularly mean spirited and as is often the case, riddled with factual bias.

Firstly, and this is important, if you are going to write a story where you poo poo this decision by Ford (i note the barely there positive reference to saving some jobs) you had best have some sense of what is happening behind the scenes. Somehow i doubt someone who writes a despicable article like this would have a clue frankly. If you think Ford has decided to retain the I6 purely to save jobs you are a loon. Companies like Ford Aus don't take these decisions lightly, no doubt more is at play. While it is possible Ford has done this to save cash re-engineering for the V6, i would say it is mostly an issue of the rapid rise in cost of the US sourced engine, and decisions within Ford RE future platforms. How does the financial position of Ford Aus improve by bringing on line a more expensive piece of hardware exactly paul?

Moreover, no-one will take you seriously when you refer in such a deriding fashion to an 'ancient' engine from the 'scrap heap'. This is rubbish and you know it. In addition to the myriad of upgrades to the point of total change the engine has experienced over this time, i don't really care if it is 10 or 50 years old. It is stronger, more driveable, burns less fuel and is more refined than most of its competitors. The alloytec in the commodore is less than a decade old since its development began and the I6 craps all over it in virtually every single area. I noted a FG G6 burnt less fuel in a recent online comparison than a toyota aurion 3.5 - and almost matched real world fuel economy of an active fuel management (DOD), smaller honda accord v6 desipite that car weighing 100kg less!!

Finally, please don't make silly references to ford globally being in financial trouble when you are so uninformed. Yes ford US is in deep doo doo, but not nearly as bad as GM/Chrysler and recent comments by Ford US executives suggest Ford would be able to survive in the US without any government bailout at all - all while investing in new product.

Oh one more thing Paul (after all there is so much to deal with), how does a Liquid Injection LPG I6 not suit this 'green future' you talk about. This engine (which now surely is on the cards) would cost less to operate than a toyota camry I4 - don't see you abusing that car so much now. Can't see why you don't, for a guy so worried about private buyers, don't you know ONLY FLEETS BUY CAMRYs PAUL!!!!

.................................................. ...............................................

Not sure if any of that makes sense to anyone but there you have it, my contribution to anti-Pottinger process. Normally i try to avoid posting these things because it really is futile but I just couldn't let it stand any longer.

[Falc'man]

Originally Posted by madmelon

I heartily agree. He hasn't allowed my final message to be added to the discussion.

He knocks off at 5pm, so no time to go through the rest of our posts. And I bet, due to the AFF troopers, he had trouble sleeping last night. Good on you for ripping him another one.

[Gobes32]

If a Chinese reporter wrote articles about chinese industry the same as our friend, Paul Potty Mouth, he would not wake up in the morning. Sometimes free speech can be taken too far.

[madmelon]

Originally Posted by Falc'man

He knocks off at 5pm, so no time to go through the rest of our posts. And I bet, due to the AFF troopers, he had trouble sleeping last night. Good on you for ripping him another one.

While that is true, I asked a friend of mine to read it and post and I posted before him- his post made it, mine didn't.

I've now noticed that the article is no longer on the first page of carsguide and can't be accessed from the "Be involved" section either.... that definately says something.

[madmelon]

Holy crap- the article has been removed. The previous link I posted no longer functions.


WINNER!!!

: :

[King Nothing]

Awesome! Well done guys! :

Love that he never bothered to respond to any comments with technical content or proper research behind them, only ones that offered opinion. I will keep my eye on carsguide from now on and make it a little mission of mine to discredit this so-called "journalist".

[King Nothing]

LOL!

The big crybaby has re-submitted the article without any comments! Time for round 2....

http://carsguide.news.com.au/site/be..._after_bad_pp/

[Jason[98.EL]]

looks like he cant handle the truth

what a

[King Nothing]

The next salvo is fired...

Hi Paul

I see you have reset the comments. Going back to my previous comment, I again draw your attention to M Danby's article "Non-Tariff barriers undermine Thai-Aus FTA" on Oct 30 2008. To summarise for the benefit of those who did not see my comment, the FTA resulted in non-tariff barriers in Thailand with the results being Thai exports increased from $139m to $1.1b, while Aus exports rose from $17m to $22m. Signs of a government who gives far more support to its local industry.

The perception that the I6 is an ancient or outdated engine is wrong. The GM LS engine series in Commodores has similarities with the 1955 Chevy V8 along the same lines as the ford I6. The BMW M54 engine which ran to 2001 had the same similarities to the M20, made in 1977.

For Ford Aus to develop an engine that delivers class leading power and refinement and still maintain economy figures better than an engine developed 4 years ago (holden's alloytec) is an acheivement that should be applauded, not condemned.

Yourself and the editor responsible for this article should have a better look at your technical understanding, your knowledge of the industry in Aus and in our region, and your research abilities.

[phillyc]

I've joined the show too. This sort of #$#%^ really gets to me. This is my email to carsguide.

******************

So you've reset the article and deleted all the previous post Pottinger. Couldn't handle some constructive comment. Something that you seem incapable of.

The fact is Ford is making money in every division bar North America.

Falcon sales since the launch of the FG are down YTD but since launch are up on a year on year basis. The Commodore is down dramatically and the Aurion even more.

Ford are also one of very few to have increased sales this year in a reduced market.

Finally have you considered that altogether with Falcon ute (which is outselling Commodore Ute) and Territory (no more Adventra as it got smacked by Terri) mean that the monthly difference in local sales of the local models between the two marques is less than 300 units.

Why did you not consider that the 400 jobs being saved until at least 2013 is not a good thing? Perhaps your tax dollar could afford to pay for the 1300 that would need work?

Get your facts right before publishing such lazy, pathetic, biased, opinionated and damaging 'journalism'.

*********

[Steve]

I think we should kedep this up permanently. Every time these guys write their usual drivel, get onto them, refute everything they say, send an objection to the editor or editor in chief or whatever the title is, send a link to M Burela and let the world know these guys are as full of it.

[XR8putts]

I just abused him myself, I urge others to do the same.

Try to use decent language and facts people, not just profanaties like i felt like doing.

[Falc'man]

Originally Posted by Steve

I think we should kedep this up permanently. Every time these guys write their usual drivel, get onto them, refute everything they say, send an objection to the editor or editor in chief or whatever the title is, send a link to M Burela and let the world know these guys are as full of it.

I agree. How about a "Media Watch" sub-forum?


My 2 cents.


================================================== ==============

P.P. why do you suggest EuroIV becomes obsolete next year? That is not true, it becomes mandatory from July 2010; so your title that "it's a bizarre joke", is a joke in itself, and if this is what you've based your article on then it renders your whole article as false, and misleading. Period.

The whole industry is suffering, not just Ford. In fact, compared to last year, Ford Au is the only local that has shown stability, where the others have consistently shown a drop in sales over the same period. Again, sorry to say, you've written a misleading article.

What do you know about Ford's future plans for the i6? Nothing. If the decision to go ahead with it has been given the okay from Ford HQ then I wouldn't bet against it being used for other than the Falcon and Territory.

Your remark that "no one wants their cars" is a very uneducated one. There are many factors that have influenced the current situation. In fact, ALL the car makers are feeling the pinch.

[Steve]

Originally Posted by Falc'man

I agree. How about a "Media Watch" sub-forum?

There's an idea.

[Bossxr8]

Seems that engineering a V6 FG past crash testing might cost more than it costs to make the I6 Euro 4 compatible. Cost savings via lower Aus dollar and possible lack of supplies from the US were also supposed to be factors from rumours i've heard.

In one article a Ford source said that exhaust, injection and calibration will be enough to get it past Euro 4, and Direct Injection isn't needed. My guess is that the cat will be moved much closer to the head to increase cat heat up time, getting the injection spray patterns etc just right and making sure its calibrated as accurately as possible will be enough. No alloy block needed. Liquid LPG should become available too as it was supposed to be used on the V6, so the technology is there to be used.

What happens past 2013 is the big problem though, as, IF, Ford do make another Falcon past that point it will most likely be designed to take the V6 from the get go, if it even appears at all. Doesn't mean the Falcon won't go V6 and FWD/AWD at that time though, as it might be a rebadged Taurus.

Credit must go to Marin Burela, this proves what happens when you put an aussie in charge, cause he worked very hard to make it happen. Much better than another soulless Yank who's only goal is to take his next step up the corporate ladder. Aussies care about the place, Yanks don't. Its so good to see an Aussie take business away from Detroit who have continued to keep FoA down by continually denying us an export market. Australia 1 Detroit 0.

I'd just like to give a big f you to Tom Gorman once again for the pathetic job he did while president.

Long live the I6.

[DoreSlamR]

I may have missed it but how long does Euro IV last for?

[Falc'man]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Seems that engineering a V6 FG past crash testing might cost more than it costs to make the I6 Euro 4 compatible. Cost savings via lower Aus dollar and possible lack of supplies from the US were also supposed to be factors from rumours i've heard.

In one article a Ford source said that exhaust, injection and calibration will be enough to get it past Euro 4, and Direct Injection isn't needed. My guess is that the cat will be moved much closer to the head to increase cat heat up time, getting the injection spray patterns etc just right and making sure its calibrated as accurately as possible will be enough. No alloy block needed. Liquid LPG should become available too as it was supposed to be used on the V6, so the technology is there to be used.

What happens past 2013 is the big problem though, as, IF, Ford do make another Falcon past that point it will most likely be designed to take the V6 from the get go, if it even appears at all. Doesn't mean the Falcon won't go V6 and FWD/AWD at that time though, as it might be a rebadged Taurus.

Credit must go to Marin Burela, this proves what happens when you put an aussie in charge, cause he worked very hard to make it happen. Much better than another soulless Yank who's only goal is to take his next step up the corporate ladder. Aussies care about the place, Yanks don't. Its so good to see an Aussie take business away from Detroit who have continued to keep FoA down by continually denying us an export market. Australia 1 Detroit 0.

I'd just like to give a big f you to Tom Gorman once again for the pathetic job he did while president.

Long live the I6.

Why 2013? What happens in 2013? The FG would only be 5 years old, that would be only half the usual model cycle.

What you say about "not much is required to make the Barra meet Euro IV" is news to me, but I'm not surprised, since we've had alot of good feedback with FG's efficiency.

[BFZ Wagon]

I've tried to look at the readers comments on the 'Good After Bad' article but it doesn't seem to show comments etc. It just seems to be a blank page with links to other parts of the Carsguide site.
Carsguide is owned by Newscorp which is a company I don't trust one bit. Just look at who is head of it..

It's great news about the I6 & keeping jobs here. Most of the Australian motoring sites seem to have it in for Ford but always have great things to say about Holden. At least Ford has the Territory and makes it HERE in Australia! Holden had to steal a Daewoo for their 'SUV style' car. Not to mention all the other rebadged Daewoo's that they're now selling.

I haven't owned my Falcon for long but I love it already and I look forward to getting another one in the future. I'm pleased that it was built in Australia & is available with dedicated 'LPG'. No one else is doing that.

Long live the I6 & Ford in Australia!

[Falc'man]

Originally Posted by All Wheel Drive

I've tried to look at the readers comments on the 'Good After Bad' article but it doesn't seem to show comments etc. It just seems to be a blank page with links to other parts of the Carsguide site.
Carsguide is owned by Newscorp which is a company I don't trust one bit. Just look at who is head of it..

The members of AFF combined to show him how much of a scumbag he is... He couldn't take the heat so he started all over again, re submitting his article without the comments.

Here is the new link.
http://carsguide.news.com.au/site/be..._after_bad_pp/
Have your say! Keep it clean.

[Citric GT]

Perhaps some letters to the tabloids that feature "carsguide" noting his incompetence are in order.

[Gobes32]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Seems that engineering a V6 FG past crash testing might cost more than it costs to make the I6 Euro 4 compatible. Cost savings via lower Aus dollar and possible lack of supplies from the US were also supposed to be factors from rumours i've heard.

In one article a Ford source said that exhaust, injection and calibration will be enough to get it past Euro 4, and Direct Injection isn't needed. My guess is that the cat will be moved much closer to the head to increase cat heat up time, getting the injection spray patterns etc just right and making sure its calibrated as accurately as possible will be enough. No alloy block needed. Liquid LPG should become available too as it was supposed to be used on the V6, so the technology is there to be used.

What happens past 2013 is the big problem though, as, IF, Ford do make another Falcon past that point it will most likely be designed to take the V6 from the get go, if it even appears at all. Doesn't mean the Falcon won't go V6 and FWD/AWD at that time though, as it might be a rebadged Taurus.

Credit must go to Marin Burela, this proves what happens when you put an aussie in charge, cause he worked very hard to make it happen. Much better than another soulless Yank who's only goal is to take his next step up the corporate ladder. Aussies care about the place, Yanks don't. Its so good to see an Aussie take business away from Detroit who have continued to keep FoA down by continually denying us an export market. Australia 1 Detroit 0.

I'd just like to give a big f you to Tom Gorman once again for the pathetic job he did while president.

Long live the I6.

+1 for a big F you to Gorman.

Polities negotiated for a diesel Territory and within three months of taking over Gorman had shot down the deal. Give Burela three years at Ford OZ and then see what the views like at the top, because that's where we will be. Nobody runs a passionate aussie company like a passionate aussie......

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Falc'man

Why 2013? What happens in 2013? The FG would only be 5 years old, that would be only half the usual model cycle.

What you say about "not much is required to make the Barra meet Euro IV" is news to me, but I'm not surprised, since we've had alot of good feedback with FG's efficiency.

2013 is when the next all new Falcon was due. It was going to be a smaller run for the FG cause the next all new Holden was going to be out 6-7 years after the VE, not 10 as per usual. I think they both seem to be heading down similar paths of less facelifts and run the models for longer periods before they are replaced with a facelift to save development dollars, and also because 10 years in the modern auto manufacturing world is now too long, probably also because development is now quicker due to CAD. Instead of a bigger mid life facelift and another after that to get it to 10 years I think there may be one facelift and then a replacement after 6-7 years?

It might have also been because that's when Ford would have had the Global RWD platform ready to go and it would have been a lot cheaper for Ford Australia to put their own top hat on the platform to keep costs down, making it cost effective to do so after a shorter time frame.

Pick which ever reason you think may be the right one, or probably choose all of them because they all make good reasons.


As for the I6 and Euro 4, there was one media report that stated that Ford are targeting injection, exhaust and calibration to pass Euro 4. It will require the usual R&D and it won't be as simple as it sounds but there was also mention of something brand new from Fords innovation centre in the US that would be a huge help in meeting those targets, whatever it is I don't know but it may be some new type of injector or cat converter or something that helps reduce emissions. Guess i'll find out when the first development engines hit the line.

I'd guarantee that the cat converter will be moved well up into the exhaust manifold to get it up to temp quicker, its what all the manufacturers are now doing to reduce cold start up emissions, and the FG's cat still isn't really that close to the engine.

[Mark351]

Originally Posted by Falc'man

The members of AFF combined to show him how much of a scumbag he is... He couldn't take the heat so he started all over again, re submitting his article without the comments.

Here is the new link.
http://carsguide.news.com.au/site/be..._after_bad_pp/
Have your say! Keep it clean.

I'm sure they'll love the extra revenues from ads due to the extra traffic, which is why they write sensationalist drivel like that.

[ehast13]

What happened to the paul pottinger story. I can't find it now. I replied to it and so did everyone I contacted.

Could we have scared the big sack of crap away?

[Steve]

Edit: sorry, wrong link.

[madmelon]

"The fact that this website removed all the previous posts about this article proves that what was said about the article and its author were correct.

Shame."

If so desired, how would one contact Mr President and/or marketing and/or legal to show them this slander?

[Swordsman88]

Oh what shame....just when things were getting interesting Mr Pottinger has taken his bat and (lack of) balls and gone home..... Must be unable to formulate a semi-logical response so has opted to just shut the whole thing down.

Interresting nonetheless because if it was just an issue of opinion you would surely leave the story up to generate more discussion - RE speculation/hoopla for the advertisers. The fact the story was pulled may illustrate the factual issues with the story - perhaps his editor finally woke up.

After reading quite a bit about the I6 demise, then return, i do find it interesting how an engine (let alone the car itself) can engender such support from so many people. Even non-Falcon people, holden fans and some non-car fans are totally behind the retention of the I6. And it is more than about jobs too. People are justifiably proud of what the I6 represents; aussie know how and world class tech on a proven platform.

I think it is as much a case of the true value of the engine itself. I think of myself as pretty open minded, i've driven a whole host of cars/engines from different manufacturers, and the I6, the so called dinosaur it is really is very impressive. It is torquey, tough and easy to operate, remarkable efficient for its size/output and in recent forms, pretty impressive NVH wise too.... This as much as anything is what gets the hackles up for many people - that journos dare call this engine 'ancient', from the 'scrap heap' when they know damn well how good it is is disgraceful and shows wanton bias IMO.

[aston]

A few months back Ford announced that ESP would be available on the E-Gas Falcon from Q1 next year. I also read, possibly on this forums that it couldn't be fitted to the current E-Gas setup because it requires fuel injection? Could we read into this that a new E-Gas set up will be released to enable ESP on the E-Gas range in Q1 of next year?

[GTP290]

This Paul Pottinger guy should be banned from writng dooms day stories about Ford, or any other negative story about any Australian manufacturer, what he is doing is taking food out of peoples mouths if companies he baggs go under. Talk about unAustralian!