4cyl Falcon - Who will buy one?

[falconnut]

I would welcome the V6 Eco over the 4 Eco, i just wish the 6 wasnt on the chopping block.

[phillyc]

Originally Posted by TMC

Not necessarily. Without dealing in specifics it's hard to calculate the outcome. But what if engine B with higher peak output but lower overall torque doesn't reach maximum power until after the end of the quarter mile. Engine A wins. Engine B will always be in catch up mode.

Lets look at 2 hypothetical engines.

Engine A 175kW at 5000 Rpm, 360Nm from 1800-4000 Rpm

Engine B 210kW at 6000 Rpm, 300Nm from 1800-5000 Rpm

If they ran the same transmission and vehicle weights the Engine A car would always win a drag race against Engine B car.

Looking at the Ecoboost 4, if it has a big fat flat torque curve, it will still be a relatively quick car compared to the I6 which also has a big fat flat torque curve. Compared to the peaky Omega SIDI 3L, the Ecoboost should wipe the floor with it due to it's big fat torque curve.

Originally Posted by XC_Lizzard

using the accepted formula of Nm = (kW x 9554) / rpm

At 5000 rpm Engine A would be producing 334.39 Nm of torque (down from the 360Nm at 4000 rpm - past its peak torque)
At 6000 rpm Engine B would be producing 334.9 Nm of torque (up from the 300 Nm at 5000 rpm - at or still approaching peak torque)

What makes Engine A such a sure thing?

Originally Posted by jpd80

Because engine A does 0-100 kph in 7.6 seconds while engine B takes a second longer?

The names of the two cars have been changed to protect their identities...

Originally Posted by XC_Lizzard

Sounds to me like the gear ratios & diff gearing are just more suited to the engine characteristics of engine A, rather than any "natural" superiority of engine A.

Yes, the numbers from TMC were a little off. But, the general gist is correct. TMC's point was that you can have a vehicle with 20% more power, but if the spread of torque isn't there it will get beaten.

I'm not going to be as 'Oral-B' secret dentist as JP. Compare FG2 EcoBoost expected outputs of 175kW/350Nm and SIDI 3.0 VE which has 190kW/295Nm.

FG2 2.0 EB
175kW @ 6000rpm (278Nm)
350Nm @ 1900-3600rpm (106kW@2900rpm)

VE 3.0 SIDI
190kW @ 6700rpm (271Nm)
290Nm @ 2900rpm (88kW@2900rpm)

Effectively, you have 20% or more torque available as a maximum, but also that torque spread means it hits a full 1000rpm earlier. When you consider it hits from 1900rpm versus 2900rpm and has 20% more at it's disposal you get more of the picture.

The VE 3.0 has an admirable spread of torque; if you only look at it from 2900rpm onwards with a peak of 290Nm diminishing to 271Nm at 6700rpm. Many on here would've driven them, and anything under the 2900rpm they are sadly dogs.

At 1900rpm, according to this ECE test graph for the 3.0L they have about 225Nm. The EcoBoost has 360Nm. This is exactly 60% more power / torque

It is no wonder GM Holden should be worried about the potential of EcoBoost to steal their sales from Omega Commodore.

[Joe5619]

Originally Posted by falconnut

And now they are not doing a V8 option anymore what choice to performance junkies have? None...

I hate, hate, hate, hate, hate comments like this!!

FALCON currenlty has the best V8 ever offered in a Falcon & probably the best V8 engine in Austalia & people are still not "F" happy!!

[Joe5619]

Originally Posted by falconnut

What will happen to the FPV falcons when FoA inevitably drop the i6?

One would ashume they'd drop this one model & contunie on with all the other models they have!!!

[FalconXV]

FPV would do well to capitalise on this new engine. If this engine is going to provide Falcon with the best weight distribution its ever had, I'd like to see an entry level FPV ecoboost with a sporty cosworth or alfa ehaust note, slight uppage in boost ( 200kW should be enough) , tuned suspension and manual gearbox. Would become a new cult icon and the best handling Falcon ever.

[Brazen]

Originally Posted by phillyc

Yes, the numbers from TMC were a little off. But, the general gist is correct. TMC's point was that you can have a vehicle with 20% more power, but if the spread of torque isn't there it will get beaten.

I'm not going to be as 'Oral-B' secret dentist as JP. Compare FG2 EcoBoost expected outputs of 175kW/350Nm and SIDI 3.0 VE which has 190kW/295Nm.

FG2 2.0 EB
175kW @ 6000rpm (278Nm)
350Nm @ 1900-3600rpm (106kW@2900rpm)

VE 3.0 SIDI
190kW @ 6700rpm (271Nm)
290Nm @ 2900rpm (88kW@2900rpm)

Effectively, you have 20% or more torque available as a maximum, but also that torque spread means it hits a full 1000rpm earlier. When you consider it hits from 1900rpm versus 2900rpm and has 20% more at it's disposal you get more of the picture.

The VE 3.0 has an admirable spread of torque; if you only look at it from 2900rpm onwards with a peak of 290Nm diminishing to 271Nm at 6700rpm. Many on here would've driven them, and anything under the 2900rpm they are sadly dogs.

At 1900rpm, according to this ECE test graph for the 3.0L they have about 225Nm. The EcoBoost has 360Nm. This is exactly 60% more power / torque

It is no wonder GM Holden should be worried about the potential of EcoBoost to steal their sales from Omega Commodore.

If Ford thinks out fleeting the fleet omega is the secret to success, then they are in serious trouble.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by FalconXV

FPV would do well to capitalise on this new engine. If this engine is going to provide Falcon with the best weight distribution its ever had, I'd like to see an entry level FPV ecoboost with a sporty cosworth or alfa ehaust note, slight uppage in boost ( 200kW should be enough) , tuned suspension and manual gearbox. Would become a new cult icon and the best handling Falcon ever.

[an10as]

Originally Posted by stevefreestyle

500+ NM

What good is that if there's sfa under 2000rpm and you need to tow a heavy trailer or caravan? Hill starts with a trailer on the back will be murder on clutches. the 3.0lt TDic 4 pot Patrol is a classic example. Ok once over 2000rpm though

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Brazen

If Ford thinks out fleeting the fleet omega is the secret to success, then they are in serious trouble.

EcoLPI has that job, Ecoboost is for retail and govco fleets that want it.

This is less about "going after Omega" and more about building right products for fleets and retail customers.
Ford needs to get the right products to the right buyers and if that do that, sales will look after themselves...
As I see it Ford has two golden years to build sales until the VF Commodore arrives.

You can bet that VF will have better aerodynamics and serious weight reductions that will yield around
7% better fuel economy , 9.1 l/100 km for the 3.6 and approx 8.4 l/100 km for the 3.0 which then puts the
pressure back on the Falcon update to keep Falcon in the picture...

[stevz]

It's funny, if you go back a year or two on this forum, everyone was harping on that Ford isn't interested in fleets as they are in the business of selling high end models to private buyers (which was subsequently proven to be a myth). Now all of a sudden the fleet market is their number one priority. Go figure.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by stevz

It's funny, if you go back a year or two on this forum, everyone was harping on that Ford isn't interested in fleets as they are in the business of selling high end models to private buyers (which was subsequently proven to be a myth). Now all of a sudden the fleet market is their number one priority. Go figure.

And Elizabeth plant is unviable without Cruze, what's your point?

[pottery beige]

Originally Posted by FalconXV

FPV would do well to capitalise on this new engine. If this engine is going to provide Falcon with the best weight distribution its ever had, I'd like to see an entry level FPV ecoboost with a sporty cosworth or alfa ehaust note, slight uppage in boost ( 200kW should be enough) , tuned suspension and manual gearbox. Would become a new cult icon and the best handling Falcon ever.

lol....

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by stevz

It's funny, if you go back a year or two on this forum, everyone was harping on that Ford isn't interested in fleets as they are in the business of selling high end models to private buyers (which was subsequently proven to be a myth). Now all of a sudden the fleet market is their number one priority. Go figure.

Of course you're right Stevez and 2 to 3years ago Broadmeadow's order books were full,
they seemed to be going well in 2009 and not needing to chase low cost fleet sales.
What changed was the loss of Falcon station wagon and E-Gas for fleets,without them,
Falcon and Ute lost significant sales volume in late 2010 and all through last year.

As with anything, fleet sales are volume adders and only work if they bring in profit.
Ford is hoping that EcoLPI reconnects with disaffected fleet customers while the
new I-4 Ecoboost is aimed at new sales which wil draw from private buyers as well
as four cylinder only fleets and Govcos with a low CO2 agenda....

But beware,
I fully expect Holden to come back with a VF that delivers 8.4 l/100 km (3.0 SIDI)
and a gut busting 9.1 l/100 km for the SIDI 3.6, something the 2014 Falcon will
need to match if it wants to remain competitive...

[bad moon rising]

at the end of the day id rather see all the greenies in a 4 cyl falcon over a prius!

[pottery beige]

Originally Posted by bad moon rising

at the end of the day id rather see all the greenies in a 4 cyl falcon over a prius!

i'd rather see all the greenies rounded up and stuffed in a cave somewhere..
far away from electricity.. running water.. or cars...
then they can happily beat their bongos.. eat bean sprouts and grow their armpit hair............

[Smoke Pursuit]

Originally Posted by pottery beige

i'd rather see all the greenies rounded up and stuffed in a cave somewhere..
far away from electricity.. running water.. or cars...
then they can happily beat their bongos.. eat bean sprouts and grow their armpit hair............

[bobthebilda]

Originally Posted by jpd80

And Elizabeth plant is unviable without Cruze, what's your point?

They seem to be in a dilemma then. Its unviable without the cruze and its unviable with the cruze.

[phillyc]

Originally Posted by jpd80

EcoLPI has that job, Ecoboost is for retail and govco fleets that want it.

This is less about "going after Omega" and more about building right products for fleets and retail customers.
Ford needs to get the right products to the right buyers and if that do that, sales will look after themselves...
As I see it Ford has two golden years to build sales until the VF Commodore arrives.

You can bet that VF will have better aerodynamics and serious weight reductions that will yield around
7% better fuel economy , 9.1 l/100 km for the 3.6 and approx 8.4 l/100 km for the 3.0 which then puts the
pressure back on the Falcon update to keep Falcon in the picture...

Spot on. All the more reason to steal a 2 year march on economy with EcoBoost Falcon. Also why the 2.7 V6 TDCi from Territory should be fitted ASAP to Falcon.

[2011G6E]

Originally Posted by Joe5619

I hate, hate, hate, hate, hate comments like this!!

FALCON currenlty has the best V8 ever offered in a Falcon & probably the best V8 engine in Austalia & people are still not "F" happy!!

Who but a vanishingly small number of enthusiasts who more like the idea that a V8 Falcon is still being made than actualy lay down money and buy one, wants the V8 to continue? Times change...back when Ford dropped the thirsty and woefully underpowered 351 (at the end it was only making 150kw or so), people were moving away from V8s, so they felt justified in dropping them. Then along came the technology to make them more powerful, and, importantly, more fuel efficient, but that didn't mean t got much cheaper to own one.
A guy I work with has a new SS Commodore, and it gets about the same economy as our six cylinder G6E...but he get hammered with far higher rego. Our rego sitting here waiting to be paid is $802.30...a V8 is up over a grand I believe, not to be sneezed at by anyone these days, and hard to justify.
The problem is that there's no magic bullet now...the old carbed V8's died, but along came EFI and it saved the day. Now what do they do? The tech is already there, and any advances...cylinder shut down, etc...is only fiddling at the edges. There's no way to dramatically improve economy as the change from carbs to EFI did back then.

Times change, and a four cylinder turbo Falcon is an idea whose time has well and truly come. People don't buy cars to drag race and could care less about 1/4 mile times and 0-100 times, I would wager that 90%-plus of the FPV's and GT's sold these days never get driven in anything close to what could be called anger...the owners are generally older, and usually buy them as a status symbol or "just because"...a guy I work with is just about to retire at 67, and is looking at a new GT Falcon...just because he likes the looks he says...it could have anything under the hood, he's more interested in the nice seats and styling...he's never mentioned the engine at all.

Bite the bullet, Ford...drop the V8 entirely, go for the four cylinder and slap the turbo diesel in the Falcon as well and concentrate on where the real sales figures are and become profitable again. Catering to tiny unprofitable niche markets only make sense when you're rolling in dough and selling squillions of cars and can afford the losses...

[Joe5619]

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

Who but a vanishingly small number of enthusiasts who more like the idea that a V8 Falcon is still being made than actualy lay down money and buy one, wants the V8 to continue? Times change...back when Ford dropped the thirsty and woefully underpowered 351 (at the end it was only making 150kw or so), people were moving away from V8s, so they felt justified in dropping them. Then along came the technology to make them more powerful, and, importantly, more fuel efficient, but that didn't mean t got much cheaper to own one.
A guy I work with has a new SS Commodore, and it gets about the same economy as our six cylinder G6E...but he get hammered with far higher rego. Our rego sitting here waiting to be paid is $802.30...a V8 is up over a grand I believe, not to be sneezed at by anyone these days, and hard to justify.
The problem is that there's no magic bullet now...the old carbed V8's died, but along came EFI and it saved the day. Now what do they do? The tech is already there, and any advances...cylinder shut down, etc...is only fiddling at the edges. There's no way to dramatically improve economy as the change from carbs to EFI did back then.

Times change, and a four cylinder turbo Falcon is an idea whose time has well and truly come. People don't buy cars to drag race and could care less about 1/4 mile times and 0-100 times, I would wager that 90%-plus of the FPV's and GT's sold these days never get driven in anything close to what could be called anger...the owners are generally older, and usually buy them as a status symbol or "just because"...a guy I work with is just about to retire at 67, and is looking at a new GT Falcon...just because he likes the looks he says...it could have anything under the hood, he's more interested in the nice seats and styling...he's never mentioned the engine at all.

Bite the bullet, Ford...drop the V8 entirely, go for the four cylinder and slap the turbo diesel in the Falcon as well and concentrate on where the real sales figures are and become profitable again. Catering to tiny unprofitable niche markets only make sense when you're rolling in dough and selling squillions of cars and can afford the losses...

I'm not sure why you quouted my post for this comment?? My comments have nothing to do with what you wrote!! I agree with everything you say..

My point was a reply to someone saying Ford offers nothing for V8 buyers.. And this is total BS as we now have the best V8 ever in a Falcon!!

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by bobthebilda

They seem to be in a dilemma then. Its unviable without the cruze and its unviable with the cruze.

The dilemma is Product Balance.

Cruze is the "savior" so long as Commodore sales don't go down the drain as Cruze numbers soar.
It's important that both products prosper, otherwise Holden has just ceded Commodore manufacturing to the Cruze...

A strong, fuel efficient Commodore is essential as is the right product mix with mid-high series Cruze.

[csv8]

Won't a 4 cylinder Falcon compete with Mondeo ?? You look at a Falcon 4 and a Mondeo 4 ,equipment level, for comparable price and the Mondeo is better value for the money. Ford might have a job selling a similar car with lesser spec for similar price ???????

[Joe5619]

Originally Posted by csv8

Won't a 4 cylinder Falcon compete with Mondeo ?? You look at a Falcon 4 and a Mondeo 4 ,equipment level, for comparable price and the Mondeo is better value for the money. Ford might have a job selling a similar car with lesser spec for similar price ???????

I don’t understand why people keep bring this one up?? The Mondeo is already here, it already has everything you say, plus uses less fuel.. It currently does not out sell the Falcon, not even anywhere close it. Pull wagon out of Mendeo sales & the number would be very sad. So why, when the Falcon gets better fuel, all of a sudden the Falcon becomes worse off??

[SSVPom]

Originally Posted by pottery beige

i'd rather see all the greenies rounded up and stuffed in a cave somewhere..
far away from electricity.. running water.. or cars...
then they can happily beat their bongos.. eat bean sprouts and grow their armpit hair............

Gold! In the running for post of the year ?

[z80]

Originally Posted by bad moon rising

at the end of the day id rather see all the greenies in a 4 cyl falcon over a prius!

The poor Prius is the butt of plenty of jokes.


It took 8 years to sell the first million Prius units.

Then it took 18 months to sell the second million.

Now it exceeds a million units a year.

It took the last 4 years to produce 3 million Prius' and it has taken 50 years to produce 3 million Falcons.


Maybe Ford Australia needs to play with the idea of an electric Falcon?

[Bossxr8]

Prius sells less than 200 a month here, and most are government fleet.

Hybids and ev's are a waste of time in oz.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by z80

Maybe Ford Australia needs to play with the idea of an electric Falcon?

Plug in Hybrid Fusion?
I believe Mondeo will be getting a version too....

[bad moon rising]

Originally Posted by z80

The poor Prius is the butt of plenty of jokes.


It took 8 years to sell the first million Prius units.

Then it took 18 months to sell the second million.

Now it exceeds a million units a year.

It took the last 4 years to produce 3 million Prius' and it has taken 50 years to produce 3 million Falcons.


Maybe Ford Australia needs to play with the idea of an electric Falcon?

but you have to remember that the prius is sold worldwide unlike the falcon. im sure falcon sales is aus would beat that over priced prius

[z80]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Prius sells less than 200 a month here, and most are government fleet.

Hybids and ev's are a waste of time in oz.

Not defending or attacking Prius or falcon, but more Prius' sold in US last year than all Ford and Holden sales in Aus last year.

(Must be something in EV sales in the future it is all i am saying.)

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by z80

Not defending or attacking Prius or falcon, but more Prius' sold in US last year than all Ford and Holden sales in Aus last year.

(Must be something in EV sales in the future it is all i am saying.)

The sales are mostly to people with a moral agenda, people who like
to drive at over 70 mph down the LA freeway pool lane guilt free..