Ford is Looking Back - XR8

[phillyc]

I understand the current situation. I agre that for now it is probably the best way to get the money out of the motor.

Lets not forget people it is a $40M investment. If it sells 1500-2000/year for 5-6 years that $40M needs to be amortised across ~9000-10000 engines. That means its about $4,500 just for the R&D.

Both Coyote crate and L76 crate motors are very similarly priced to the public. For Miami, it also has a unique intake amongst other items and the additional fitment cost of a supercharger. If those additional costs came to much less than $2,000-$2,500 i would be pleasantly suprised.

So we see that Ford / FPV need to price their car $7,000 higher than the competing SS. The fact that they don't with the GS is testament to the relative value of the product. Noting that trying to compare deal prices though is much harder.

Let's not forget that we are getting a supercharged V8 which murders the opposition for performance at the similar price points.

Originally Posted by DASH GT

As I have already said just use the supercharged V8 detuned for XR8... Or better still move the rest of the line up up in the chain.

1) FG2 XR8 - 315 KW, 19 inch alloys standard, XR front bar etc. Ford badged.
2) FG2 GS - 335 KW, 19 inch wheels, 4 pot brembos, gt interior, XR front bar with air ducts (no foglamps). FPV Badged.
3) FG2 GT - 351 KW, 20 inch wheels, 6 pot brembos, GTP interior, R spec suspension, special FPV front bar (show black edition)?. FPV Badged.

Delete GT-P and GT-E (they only sell a handful of each).

They would probably double their v8 sales if not triple them if they had the above mixture. Also add XR8 ute and Super Pursuit option.

I think that moving them up the chain is probably what Ford / FPV is looking at doing.

What we saw with the FPV Black Edition GT 'Concept' is that FPV know what the customers want. It is having to work through the check boxes that Ford have.

Some people were disappointed when the FG1 'Black Edition' went on sale because it didn't have the intercooled engine, the different front bar, the bigger brakes and wider tyres like the 'concept'.

What FPV were showing is what they will be offering through the PPP (Prodrive Performance Parts) offshoot in the near future. Following that, 12 months or so later will be updates that the Black Edition concept had and these parts will be fitted standard to the GT.

What this means is that the equipment and technical specifications will rise for the FPV model range. This then means that as the models move up, they can keep their current prices, but also create the room for FG3/FH XR8. Which will for all intents and purposes be the FG2 GS.

[Luke Plaizier]

Time for a write-in campaign to FPV at http://www.fpv.com.au/contact

We want an XR8 from now till we run to the wire in 2016, and offering a tick-box option on the GS for no stickers and Ford/XR8 badges is a ZERO cost way of doing so, requiring very little in the way of business case or R&D outlay.


Lukeyson

[Luke Plaizier]

Originally Posted by Polyal

I dont particularly agree with the XR8 being SC, regardless of how the financials would work, but I do agree wholeheartedly about "blooding" people with the XR8. I would be one of those people.

I don't agree with there being no XR8 at all. Anything other than a zero-to-negligible cost R&D XR8, and that's what you'll get.

You stick to your guns mate. if no XR8 is what you want, then you do your damndest to get it.


Lukeyson

[Polyal]

So none of the $100 odd million granted for the next update can go towards the XR8/G8E if it was to be NA?

My gut feeling is stuff FPV, honestly, yes Ford own a stake in its sales but is it really that profitable anyway? Would have loved to be the fly on the wall when the $40M was agreed for Miami when Ford NA have many engine choices used in the Mustang.

FPV is not going to fair to well if the Falcon number dont increase via Ford.

Originally Posted by Luke Plaizier

I don't agree with there being no XR8 at all. Anything other than a zero-to-negligible cost R&D XR8, and that's what you'll get.

You stick to your guns mate. if no XR8 is what you want, then you do your damndest to get it.


Lukeyson

I agree a "cheaper" GS would be better than nothing, but I cant see just renaming the GS to XR8 as really achieving anything. People like myself are not buying GS's because its a FPV, Im not that petty. Unless I have misunderstood.

[martyk54]

Originally Posted by anto

It is boring! fast..yes, exciting and fun ?....NO !!

The sensation is about as exciting as a sterile hospital ward

I miss my XR8

The sensation of all the torque smacking you into the seat from 2000rpm boring??? You've probably never driven an XR6T (FG especially)? You've obviously never owned one. What you've written there doesn't mean a thing, what about the XR6T specifically is so boring and unexciting?

Originally Posted by Professor Farnsworth

this man speaks the truth

the true measure of a car is not top speed, dyno figures, radar guided cruise control or 22 inch wheels, it's how it makes you feel when you drive it. To me and a lot of people i know, that feeling only comes from the character of a v8.

As a motoring enthusiast I value a cars performance attributes above subconscious thoughts regarding the amount of cylinders my engine has. Is this an untruth? When I bought my BA2 XR8 (after BA XR6T), it was a lifeless piece of crap in comparison. A heavy Ford USA truck engine called 'Boss' and squeezed into the Falcon. Ford Australia's I6T will go down as one of the greatest Aussie made engines ever, the 5.4l is USA rubbish. I'm eager to have a go in a Coyote, haven't as yet.

If you ask me you're simply limiting yourself to a small (and getting smaller) bracket of performance cars with this mentality.

[Bossxr8]

Why the massive debate over a car that is already dead. Graziano was sent here to kill off Falcon slowly, not spend more money on niche models. They don't even have any money to advertise their upgraded MkII, do you think they have money to do another XR8 which they consider will only sell in small numbers.

Face the reality people, XR8 died over a year ago when they put the 5.0 NA XR8 program on permanant hold. Don't believe the "we're still looking at it" crap. They stopped it because they considered the investment Vs potential sales as unviable, and things have gotten way worse since then.

You can debate it all you want but it doesn't change the facts.

[martyk54]

Originally Posted by phillyc

What this means is that the equipment and technical specifications will rise for the FPV model range. This then means that as the models move up, they can keep their current prices, but also create the room for FG3/FH XR8. Which will for all intents and purposes be the FG2 GS.

That's what is required, and I'm sure would have the typical SS V8 buyer thinking twice about sticking with Holden when that SC 5.0 by all accounts is such a ripper and available for the same coin. If it didn't sell then, it never will.

[pottery beige]

Originally Posted by martyk54

The sensation of all the torque smacking you into the seat from 2000rpm boring??? You've probably never driven an XR6T (FG especially)? You've obviously never owned one. What you've written there doesn't mean a thing, what about the XR6T specifically is so boring and unexciting?



As a motoring enthusiast I value a cars performance attributes above subconscious thoughts regarding the amount of cylinders my engine has. Is this an untruth? When I bought my BA2 XR8 (after BA XR6T), it was a lifeless piece of crap in comparison. A heavy Ford USA truck engine called 'Boss' and squeezed into the Falcon. Ford Australia's I6T will go down as one of the greatest Aussie made engines ever, the 5.4l is USA rubbish. I'm eager to have a go in a Coyote, haven't as yet.

If you ask me you're simply limiting yourself to a small (and getting smaller) bracket of performance cars with this mentality.

as a motoring enthusiast you show little knowlege of the BOSS motor.. its components and how it all came about..

[pottery beige]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Why the massive debate over a car that is already dead. Graziano was sent here to kill off Falcon slowly, not spend more money on niche models. They don't even have any money to advertise their upgraded MkII, do you think they have money to do another XR8 which they consider will only sell in small numbers.

Face the reality people, XR8 died over a year ago when they put the 5.0 NA XR8 program on permanant hold. Don't believe the "we're still looking at it" crap. They stopped it because they considered the investment Vs potential sales as unviable, and things have gotten way worse since then.

You can debate it all you want but it doesn't change the facts.

this man speaketh the truth....

[Luke Plaizier]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Why the massive debate over a car that is already dead. Graziano was sent here to kill off Falcon slowly, not spend more money on niche models. They don't even have any money to advertise their upgraded MkII, do you think they have money to do another XR8 which they consider will only sell in small numbers.

Face the reality people, XR8 died over a year ago when they put the 5.0 NA XR8 program on permanant hold. Don't believe the "we're still looking at it" crap. They stopped it because they considered the investment Vs potential sales as unviable, and things have gotten way worse since then.

You can debate it all you want but it doesn't change the facts.

Woohoo. We have a winner in the "It Can't be Done" stakes!

Nice negativity, a heavy dash of hopelesseness, followed by a strong dose of fatalism.

Keep throwing those around. There's hope yet that everyone will give up and chuck out the nyuk nyuk as convincingly as you have!

The V8 Falcon is certainly not dead. We're just talking about changing the Badges and removing the stickers on one model. Why there is so much debate against that is the mind boggling bit.


Lukeyson

[Luke Plaizier]

Originally Posted by Polyal

I agree a "cheaper" GS would be better than nothing, but I cant see just renaming the GS to XR8 as really achieving anything. People like myself are not buying GS's because its a FPV, Im not that petty. Unless I have misunderstood.

If it doesn't really achieve anything in your eyes, and it's such a small and petty thing, why are you arguing against it, when there are others that DO value that small change.....? Will you be losing out on something personally? Will it be a moral affront to your belief in Ford? You'd still be able to buy the same car as an FPV GS - OR - a Ford XR8. In fact you could have BOTH in your driveway.

I'm curious why you're so against it.

There'd be an XR8 on the market at least, no matter it's incarnation.There has to be marketting points in that. It doesn't even have to sell many at all since it has had no R&D to speak of and no stand-alone amortisation requirement - other than contributing to the existing GS bottom line.



Lukeyson

[P6LTD351]

I would prefer the car was an XR8 rather than a GS. I believe Ford need to have a low cost V8 in their stable, otherwise it's '83 all over again. I don't care if they only sell 1, it's an image maker. And, it won't cost squat to make it happen either.

I love Ford but I fear that Bossxr8 is right; Graziano has been sent here for one purpose.

Have you seen the new Ford ads they run over and over on TV now? "Small is bigger than ever". Not a Falcon in sight. It's clear where Ford's position is on this one.

Lukeyson, keep up the debate though; I like the passion.

[TMC]

If Ford don't bring back the V8 and drop the Falcon so we can all drive diesel Mondeo's, then they are as boring as Toyota with the Camry. The Camry is about as exciting as an LG washing machine to drive. :(

[anto]

Originally Posted by martyk54

The sensation of all the torque smacking you into the seat from 2000rpm boring??? You've probably never driven an XR6T (FG especially)? You've obviously never owned one. What you've written there doesn't mean a thing, what about the XR6T specifically is so boring and unexciting?

Nah you're right Ive never driven one, .....look at my sig smart guy... I own an FG turdbo and I can tell you there is zero excitement..ZERO ! so you can get off your high horse right there Do you own one or are you one of the fanboys?
As I said already, the thing is fast yes but it has no soul. Its a great car all round being a G6ET but does nothing for the sensations even compared to my old XR8....its not all about speed.

And btw, I get more than enough "torque smacking you into the seat" in my GT champ... something you probably have little idea about.

On topic tho, If they were were to bring back and XR8 ( which they obviously wont it seems..) I would imagine it'd have to be a cut price V8 to to fill the entry level hole, Other wise there is no point with the GS already positioned in its price bracket. I really dont see it happening tho...sadly

[4.0i OHC]

Originally Posted by TMC

If Ford don't bring back the V8 and drop the Falcon so we can all drive diesel Mondeo's, then they are as boring as Toyota with the Camry. The Camry is about as exciting as an LG washing machine to drive. :(

I agree about the Camry and Aurion. Thankfully, that's not the case with the Mondeo.

[flooded one]

Originally Posted by 4.0i OHC

I agree about the Camry and Aurion. Thankfully, that's not the case with the Mondeo.

Aurions are good in a straight line. very responsive. thats about it thou. never driven the current mondeo. so cant say about it. the camry doesnt really impress me. *yawn*. I'm impressed mostly by straight line performance and handling. hence why i love the falcon 6 cylinders!!

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Why the massive debate over a car that is already dead. Graziano was sent here to kill off Falcon slowly, not spend more money on niche models. They don't even have any money to advertise their upgraded MkII, do you think they have money to do another XR8 which they consider will only sell in small numbers.

Face the reality people, XR8 died over a year ago when they put the 5.0 NA XR8 program on permanant hold. Don't believe the "we're still looking at it" crap. They stopped it because they considered the investment Vs potential sales as unviable, and things have gotten way worse since then.

You can debate it all you want but it doesn't change the facts.

It's interesting to hear the tone of Graziano's comments:

''I wouldn't say it's dead but we have been studying it for quite some time and, to be perfectly honest, we haven't figured out a way to pull a business case together that allows us to deliver a vehicle that represents - and will deliver on - the XR8 name,'' he says.

''That is such an iconic name and brand in Australia and that's what we're looking at. So, I'm hopeful that very soon we'll have a decision one way or another on XR8 that we can then talk about.''

I take from that:
1) XR8 and GS occupy the same market slot at the moment
2)A NA 5.0 Coyote won't do service to the XR8 name.
3) The business case hinges on the 315 S/C V8 being available for XR8

The only way that would happen is if FPV increases the power settings on its GS and GT cars
and until they shift and make room, the XR8 remains in limbo, FPV having dibs on their own engine.

[Luke Plaizier]

I read from that Graziano comment an opportunity to provide consumer feedback whilst they are in the process of making a decision, and in some way influence them into making a "yes" call on XR8. Hence the FPV feedback link earlier in the thread. Frankly, I think it's worthwhile that FPV hear from positive enthusiasts that we want an XR8, go to it.

But the more we hear about "what an XR8 'should' be" the more I hear what has already been written about "what a GTHO should be" - and that very talk has all but scared Ford and FPV off from ever bringing a GTHO to market.


Lukeyson

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by Luke Plaizier

If it doesn't really achieve anything in your eyes, and it's such a small and petty thing, why are you arguing against it, when there are others that DO value that small change.....? Will you be losing out on something personally? Will it be a moral affront to your belief in Ford? You'd still be able to buy the same car as an FPV GS - OR - a Ford XR8. In fact you could have BOTH in your driveway.

I'm curious why you're so against it.

There'd be an XR8 on the market at least, no matter it's incarnation.There has to be marketting points in that. It doesn't even have to sell many at all since it has had no R&D to speak of and no stand-alone amortisation requirement - other than contributing to the existing GS bottom line.



Lukeyson

My stance against the xr8 being supercharged comes from a few angles. Simply changing the name from gs and xr8 does nothing other than maybe, a big maybe, open it o younger people. But i believe that 90% of the people that know the xr8 know what a gs is and how it fits historically and currently.

Also it will have no effect on the cost of the car, now people can claim that the xr8 would be a $10k better car than the ss with a miami. It might be, but this segment is price sensative and 10k represents about a 20% premuim.

There is no evidence the coyote will struggle in a falcon, unless someone here has access to some decent simulation programs. Gearbox and final drive ratios would fix any issue, not that there would be one. The ss was slower than the fg xr8 in a straight line, less kw badge and it still sold well. So for me bulk power is wasted on xr8/ss buyers. But again, coyote in stanard form, with all the bells functional would be more than adequate.

Its all about having an entry level v8....miami is moved past this point which suits gt buyers down to the ground, but imo not the average aussie.

FPV made the call to spend $40m...why....so now they are clinging onto the gs to boost numbers. Its a short term plan that represents where ford is at the moment. I bet gs sales are mainly made by people who see past the badge BS and know its just a tune away from smashing a gt and many other cars. Its not getting the lower end of the v8 market. To simply ignore that section which other than FG did well for ford historically is short sighted.

Also take a model like the G8E. It would never get miami because it would make the GTE pretty reundant.

[martyk54]

Originally Posted by anto

I own an FG turdbo and I can tell you there is zero excitement..ZERO ! so you can get off your high horse right there
As I said already, the thing is fast yes but it has no soul. Its a great car all round being a G6ET but does nothing for the sensations even compared to my old XR8....its not all about speed.

See, there you go again. 'It doesn't compare to my old XR8'.. blah, blah, blah. How exactly? The I6T kills any XR8 for torque, which was always supposed to be the V8 advantage and luxury. It's all in your head champ, I doubt you can even explain it to yourself, let alone anyone on here.

And by the way, you're calling me a fanboy?? That's a hoot. I'll happily speak all day about why the XR6T is better... all you've got is this 'soul of a V8' spiel. YOU my friend are the fanboy, this is the definition of such a tag.

[pottery beige]

Originally Posted by martyk54

See, there you go again. 'It doesn't compare to my old XR8'.. blah, blah, blah. How exactly? The I6T kills any XR8 for torque, which was always supposed to be the V8 advantage and luxury. It's all in your head champ, I doubt you can even explain it to yourself, let alone anyone on here.

And by the way, you're calling me a fanboy?? That's a hoot. I'll happily speak all day about why the XR6T is better... all you've got is this 'soul of a V8' spiel. YOU my friend are the fanboy, this is the definition of such a tag.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by martyk54

See, there you go again. 'It doesn't compare to my old XR8'.. blah, blah, blah. How exactly? The I6T kills any XR8 for torque, which was always supposed to be the V8 advantage and luxury. It's all in your head champ,

ahh, good, looks like you are finally coming around and getting the picture. this is exactly what they are saying. sure, the 6T is fast, but it has no character!! no soul!! if you think character and soul can be found in kw and nm numbers then i'm afraid you will never understand.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by jpd80

FPV having dibs on their own engine.

whats the deal with the engine exactly? i thought i heard that if ford wanted to use it they would have to 'buy' it off FPV?? is that correct?

[martyk54]

Originally Posted by prydey

ahh, good, looks like you are finally coming around and getting the picture. this is exactly what they are saying. sure, the 6T is fast, but it has no character!! no soul!! if you think character and soul can be found in kw and nm numbers then i'm afraid you will never understand.

But V8 engines vary greatly depending on manufacturer, capacity, head etc, etc, as turbo or any other engines do. To say that every engine with 8 cylinders has 'soul', while everything else doesn't is an illogical statement. I think the I6T has a lot of character, it's just not the same as a typical V8...

[prydey]

since when is logic a part of it?

[dimka100]

The US built engine will be easily cheaper than the I6 these days ... its all political why we don't see this engine in the Falcon ... the truth of the matter is the N/A V8 Falcon would be easily cheaper to make than the I6T powered Falcon and could be sold for less ... but then that would mean the end of jobs, hence the end of Govco cash handouts

[martyk54]

Originally Posted by prydey

since when is logic a part of it?

Since you're all telling me that whatever piece of junk they slot into the XR8 is irrelevant... If it's got 8 cylinders it's got character and soul, which is why you'd dish out 40k+ for it. I get it.

[Kieron]

Originally Posted by Luke Plaizier

If it doesn't really achieve anything in your eyes, and it's such a small and petty thing, why are you arguing against it, when there are others that DO value that small change.....? Will you be losing out on something personally? Will it be a moral affront to your belief in Ford? You'd still be able to buy the same car as an FPV GS - OR - a Ford XR8. In fact you could have BOTH in your driveway.

I'm curious why you're so against it.

There'd be an XR8 on the market at least, no matter it's incarnation.There has to be marketting points in that. It doesn't even have to sell many at all since it has had no R&D to speak of and no stand-alone amortisation requirement - other than contributing to the existing GS bottom line.
Lukeyson

For me, I don't give a **** what badge it has, Ford/FPV, XR8/GS, name it how you want it, but price does matter. A base manual SS is around $48K, the cheapest V8 Ford/FPV I can get is the GS at $58K which is crazy.

However, I do see Ford's POV, the XR6T stole XR8 sales, therefore making it hard for Ford to spend the $$'s in creating a new XR8 due to miniscule sales.

ITs kind of a catch 22, should Ford risk spending the $$'s and hope the buyers will come back to the XR8, which would likely pinch sales back from the XR6T.
OR
Stay as it is?

Combine the state of the large car market in general, the ever spiralling rise in fuel cost and the economic climate and cold hard reality would suggest the latter is the better option.

[pottery beige]

Originally Posted by martyk54

Since you're all telling me that whatever piece of junk they slot into the XR8 is irrelevant... If it's got 8 cylinders it's got character and soul, which is why you'd dish out 40k+ for it. I get it.

crack me up dude youre a classic.. btw what are you doing in this thread.....

[Professor Farnsworth]

Originally Posted by martyk54

Since you're all telling me that whatever piece of junk they slot into the XR8 is irrelevant... If it's got 8 cylinders it's got character and soul, which is why you'd dish out 40k+ for it. I get it.

you know what, at first you were just someone asking a seemingly obvious question, which we all answered, now you're just trying to be a troll.

i'm getting a little over you telling me what i should like, because of how hektic it is. Not everyone thinks in such a limited spectrum. If i wanted a cheap-to-tune street weapon i'd buy a turbo, but like i said a million times, to me, they're BORING.

To you they're obviously the ants pants and that's fantastic i'm happy you feel that way. Also the tickford 5.0 and the BOSS 5.4 are nothing alike in their power delivery, as the barra 220 is nothing like the BOSS. Horses for courses. It's how you mod them that counts.

And now that you've just got to the point of bagging out what's being spoken about here for no reason, you can consider this an informal warning to stop.