All things Solar (merged threads)

[z80]

Originally Posted by Stagg1991

The whole system weighed about 460kg when full, although it's a huge misconception that the close coupled systems are too heavy on the roof, never been a job where we had to strengthen the roof; Proof was, when the job was finished, there was three of us standing (all weighing around 80kg), and the roof was still sturdy The trick is to distribute the weight of the ysstem, by using Tophat, which is the steel bracket across the bottom of the tank.

It was above an old extension to the customers house, was directly above his kitchen, although it was also an older house and was directly above a supporting wall.

When he first contacted us he was replacing an electric hot water, and when he said he wanted a woodfire option I recommended that he go electric boost as well as the woodfire; because there aren't enough systems installed with a woodfire it is not seen as a dedicated booster for solar; so legally it still has to have an electric or gas booster. I recommended the electric boost because if we replaced his electric with a gas boost solar, there is the extra cost of the booster, plus the cost of running gas to the site; and the pressure needed for a solar gas boosted is at least 199mj per hour, so that was $50 per linear meter EXTRA install cost, and the pipe has to be run from the gas meter to the booster. Comparing an electric boost with a gas boost, he paid about $3000 extra.

When the combination of solar and woodfire in Victoria gives you about 95% of your hot water, I told him that he would not make his money back, although we can still do the job if you wanted.

Sure enough, he was happy to pay a fully installed price for $9700 for a 300 litre solar, flue water jacket, 24lpm continuous flow gas booster, running gas to the site, installing a flat roof frame, and integrating all of the gear together.

His rebates were as follows:

20 STC's valued at $30 each for the install = $620
24 VEECs (Victorian Energy Efficiency Certificates) going form electric to gas boost = $720 (Only in Victoria)
Federal electric rebate (only applicable when the insulation rebate has not been claimed) = $1000

Was one huge job as well, my ego skyrocketed when he gave me a bottle of wine for designing the system, and when I found out he was a civil engineer and I didn't slip up!!

Unfortunately....he would have been better off getting solar panels to that same amount and using a run of the mill electric storage hot water system.

With far less greenhouse gas emmissions than his dirty woodfired heating arrangement.

There are places where you ned to put a catalyctic converter onto a wood heater now....and flue water jackets are illegal due to cooling smoke gasses and thereby incomplete combustion.


Is that a gas system on the roof?

Betcha the pilot light keeps blowing out on stormy nights..?

[poppa smurf]

yeah! I wondered about that pesky pilot light,.....neighbours used to go out when the main burner shut off pain in the bum to relight in the dark, well used to be anyway

also with the meter running backwards.....not all of them, mate of mine had his solar array input added to his bill instead of deducting from it.....don't know what happened but he wasn't happy

soon got himself a smart meter

[pottery beige]

you will never get in front.. no profiteering in SA..

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/s...-1226282054572

[poppa smurf]

no but you can stop the power bills!

[glenno1]

i went solar about a year ago . i got the power and hot water done and my bills actually went up.
ive never paid more that about $280 - $300 since ive been living where i am and as soom as i got the solar hooked up my first bill was $501 and the next was $535 .
i had a sparky check it out and it is all working correctly so i dont know what is using all the power on me .
has anyone else had a similar problem ?

[z80]

Originally Posted by glenno1

i went solar about a year ago . i got the power and hot water done and my bills actually went up.
ive never paid more that about $280 - $300 since ive been living where i am and as soom as i got the solar hooked up my first bill was $501 and the next was $535 .
i had a sparky check it out and it is all working correctly so i dont know what is using all the power on me .
has anyone else had a similar problem ?

Yes mate...you have been scammed.

I bet you have a 1kw setup?

And you signed up on a contract for a grid feed....but your peak rate went from something like 17c a kw to 27c a kw?

Guess what? You aren't exporting anything cause your ambient level of power usage exceeds what your panels put out.

(you have more turned on than you are producing and it's getting sucked up by your appliances)

Also bet you your 1KW system puts out about 4 kw a day but you use about 25kw a day...?

That also means the excesss is purchased off the grid at the 27c rate instead of 17c.


Rule of thumb....Don't get a 1 kw system if you have people staying at home all day....MIMIMUM 3KW....

[glenno1]

thanks Z80 i had no idea . what if i were to get more panels put on the roof , would that bring it up to a 3 kw system or have i got the wrong end of the stick ?

[MNM96]

Originally Posted by glenno1

thanks Z80 i had no idea . what if i were to get more panels put on the roof , would that bring it up to a 3 kw system or have i got the wrong end of the stick ?

Welcome Glenno1.


Output is dependant upon the number of, and output of, the panels, and the size of the inverter.

[poppa smurf]

Originally Posted by glenno1

i went solar about a year ago . i got the power and hot water done and my bills actually went up.
ive never paid more that about $280 - $300 since ive been living where i am and as soom as i got the solar hooked up my first bill was $501 and the next was $535 .
i had a sparky check it out and it is all working correctly so i dont know what is using all the power on me .
has anyone else had a similar problem ?

unless you had the same company hook your solar up that provides your power your tariffs cannot change.....you should be paying less now than before......solar installers cannot increase your charges

if you have the slightest inkling that this may be the case ring your power supplier

granted a small system will not feed a great deal into the grid but it definitely will NOT increase your account without some external force

get the installers or salesman back to check the system and seek advice from consumer affairs if the installers state that everything is fine and working as it should

have you any idea of the amount of kilowatts you averaged per day before the array install (have a look on your old power bills)

what are you using now......what is the difference

do you have a smart meter, if not is the infeed making the meter run backward or is it adding the input generated power on ......thus increasing your daily usage

something is definitely wrong here!......don't leave it at that

[poppa smurf]

Originally Posted by glenno1

thanks Z80 i had no idea . what if i were to get more panels put on the roof , would that bring it up to a 3 kw system or have i got the wrong end of the stick ?

definitely DO NOT put any more on until you sort out the problem with this lot!

[Stagg]

Originally Posted by z80

Unfortunately....he would have been better off getting solar panels to that same amount and using a run of the mill electric storage hot water system.

With far less greenhouse gas emmissions than his dirty woodfired heating arrangement.

There are places where you ned to put a catalyctic converter onto a wood heater now....and flue water jackets are illegal due to cooling smoke gasses and thereby incomplete combustion.


Is that a gas system on the roof?

Betcha the pilot light keeps blowing out on stormy nights..?

The carbon dioxide absorbed by the wood during its lifetime far exceeds the carbon dioxide produced by burning the wood.

As for the flue water jackets, they are not illegal if the correct jacket is used; an used in conjunction with a product such as a smart burn.

That is a continuous flow gas booster on the roof, and it does not have a pilot light because it has an electronic spark, same with all solar gas boosters.

The reason the gas booster was on the roof was it was closer to the hot outlet on the tank. When you have a large distance between the hot outlet on the tank and the gas booster, then you have the problem of cooling water in the pipes between the tank and booster. That means that even in summer, when you turn on a hot tap, the gas booster will have cold water flow into it, and it will switch on, no matter how hot the water in the tank is. That is also why you see gas boosters mounted on the side of the split systems, because there is almost immediate hot water into the booster and no gas consumed when it is not necessary.

There are some notable mistakes with the legislation from the PIC (Plumbing Industry Commission) about water heaters, with coincidentally are prejudice against solar water heaters.

Notably, lasts year legislation was passed that all water heaters, be it solar, electric or gas, must heat water to a temperature of 70 degrees to destroy legionella. The reason is because Legionella is killed after 13 seconds in a temperature of 60 degrees, and for some homes with a continuous flow, it is not at 60 degrees for 13 seconds. At 70 degrees, it is killed instantly.

However, Legionella is an airborne disease, and the only area in the home where Legionella has EVER been found is in the shower head in your home, because after a shower water sits in the shower head and is exposed to the air underneath it. The contradiction is that to prevent scalding, Legislation states that all homes must have a tempering valve set to 50 degrees in bathrooms to prevent scalding!!

This means that you pay for heating water to 70 degrees to destroy Legionella, and then the water is cooled down again in the bathroom, where Legionella can survive and has been found!

Rebates for solar hot water dropped when this happened, because they were re-tested for boosting to 70 degrees instead of 60, and their efficiency dropped because you were boosting more.

Unfortunately, there are so many excuses that people find not to install solar hot water, but everyone will have to go solar hot water eventually. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, electric hot waters will not be available to purchase brand new in the future, and soon after that, gas hot water will not be available to buy new in the future, and the only option will be solar. However, by that time, that cost will be much higher than it is now because the government won't have to give incentives, you'll only be able to buy solar anyway!

[poppa smurf]

I was advised by my plumber to go "on call" gas water heating but I was very much put off because of the pilot light issue, are they now all electronic, if so that is very good news........didn't think much of the old pilot

I reckon I may still go solar hot water after I sort out how much I am in front with my solar array

origin have deals that can be paid off interest free by my solar credits

the system will cost me nothing.....well in theory anyway

I was told long ago by someone in the know that to replace the carbon offset in one mature gum tree would take the equal of 250,000 newly planted trees

just a little bit of trivia that sticks every now and then

mate that 70 degrees.......is that measured "at tap" or in heater

[Stagg]

Originally Posted by poppa smurf

I was advised by my plumber to go "on call" gas water heating but I was very much put off because of the pilot light issue, are they now all electronic, if so that is very good news........didn't think much of the old pilot

I reckon I may still go solar hot water after I sort out how much I am in front with my solar array

origin have deals that can be paid off interest free by my solar credits

the system will cost me nothing.....well in theory anyway

I was told long ago by someone in the know that to replace the carbon offset in one mature gum tree would take the equal of 250,000 newly planted trees

just a little bit of trivia that sticks every now and then

mate that 70 degrees.......is that measured "at tap" or in heater

You'll want to make sure that the continuous flow water heater is an electronic one, because I'm pretty sure there are some that still use a polit light. A few popular continuous flow models without a polit light are the Rheem Integrity series, or the Rinnai Infinity series.

If you go solar hot water, you'll want to ask Origin what brand of solar hot water they are using. If they are using Chromagen, I would steer clear of it.

As for the 70 degrees, that is measured in the tank. It is for all new installations though, so yours will most likely be measuring 60 degrees in the tank if it is over 6 months old

[z80]

Originally Posted by glenno1

thanks Z80 i had no idea . what if i were to get more panels put on the roof , would that bring it up to a 3 kw system or have i got the wrong end of the stick ?

Yep...more panels is the key.

Be careful of advice on online forums though...it is generalistic advice, your circumstances may be different.

It's not the solar installer that is the problem with your tarriffs ...it is the electricity supplier.

basically you can't say to them that you want to be paid a premium for putting nice clean/green power onto their grid. and then say that any power you buy back should be dirty coal power.

no-nono...they make you buy green power back off the grid for any excess you use...and of course cause you are making 2 tenths of stuff all with a 1KW system...you are almost 75% excess....LOL

That's why you are paying a higher tarriff.

[z80]

Originally Posted by Stagg1991

The carbon dioxide absorbed by the wood during its lifetime far exceeds the carbon dioxide produced by burning the wood.!

Far exceeds? No way.

Originally Posted by Stagg1991

Unfortunately, there are so many excuses that people find not to install solar hot water, but everyone will have to go solar hot water eventually.
!

That sounds like solar industry wishful thinking....

Originally Posted by Stagg1991

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, electric hot waters will not be available to purchase brand new in the future, and soon after that, gas hot water will not be available to buy new in the future, and the only option will be solar.!

I dunno about solar being the only option, and i am sure that full electric water heaters will always be available.

A bit hard to put solar hot water on a 37th floor apartment or a terrace house in the shade in inner city melbourne....

Originally Posted by Stagg1991

However, by that time, that cost will be much higher than it is now because the government won't have to give incentives, you'll only be able to buy solar anyway!

I disagree...I've been alive long enough to realize that prices always go up almost immiediately when a rebate is in place.

Rebates stifle competition and encourage price fixing.

Prices usually go up by the exact amount that the rebate amounts to.

Solar panels, LPG conversions, solar hot water,roof insulation...all the same.

[poppa smurf]

Originally Posted by z80

Yep...more panels is the key.

Be careful of advice on online forums though...it is generalistic advice, your circumstances may be different.

It's not the solar installer that is the problem with your tarriffs ...it is the electricity supplier.

basically you can't say to them that you want to be paid a premium for putting nice clean/green power onto their grid. and then say that any power you buy back should be dirty coal power.

no-nono...they make you buy green power back off the grid for any excess you use...and of course cause you are making 2 tenths of stuff all with a 1KW system...you are almost 75% excess....LOL

That's why you are paying a higher tarriff.

where is the proof of such a wildly inaccurate statement.....I have all relevant contracts and documents from my supplier and installer and nowhere on any of them does it show that I MUST sign up for or agree to or participate in any green energy schemes at a higher cost.....I nor anyone I know was MADE to do anything by either the solar installers nor my energy suppliers

I also made 3 quick phone calls to solar suppliers and queried this with them....none had ever heard of, nor would think of doing anything like this, nor could they, as they stated they do not and cannot regulate or change a suppliers price index with a client, they also asked who was making such litigious statements about the industry

this practice would be highly illegal! and i think would be defended in a court of law

green energy is something we choose to either participate in or we don't

it's not why your bill is higher.....you have a problem somewhere!

ring your supplier and check your account for increased tariffs!

tell your installer about what is going on

DO NOT PUT MORE PANELS ON.......this could be the reason why you are showing higher usage.

in fact I would disconnect the panels i had up there already until this problem is sorted

sort it out through your electricity supplier (cost of tariff compared to same time last year)

speak to your solar array installer or supplier as to why your bill is higher than before and what needs to be done to correct it!

and i agree, be very careful about online advice, ..particularly those that are proven to be merely seeking to create trouble!

[poppa smurf]

Originally Posted by Stagg1991

If you go solar hot water, you'll want to ask Origin what brand of solar hot water they are using. If they are using Chromagen, I would steer clear of it.

thanks mate.......I just had a little yak on the dog and bone to Origin, who, by the way, are very keen to get my business,

they supply a Dux Sunpro MP15, gas boosted unit.......I didn't ask about the size

but price installed is $6,400....and they will accept solar credits as a "payment option"....seems a lot to me but it means it would, in theory, cost me not one single brass razooo!!!

what's your highly knowledgable and valued thoughts on this unit and price!

as i say I know less than nothing about these units!

I'm not sure about my rebates and credits, I reckon I would have used them up on my array???

[Stagg]

Ahhhh, the Dux MP15....

It's a unit with 5 sensors along the height of the tank using the Hot Logic temperature controller... The top 62 litres is continually maintained at 70 degrees throughout the year, instead of the full 315 litres, because it burns less gas that way. Also the only gas boosted system available in Australia that uses 44mj/hr gas, meaning there is no need for a gas pipe upgrade. In Adelaide it qualifies for 35 STC's with 2 panels, and 44 STC's with 3 panels...

If I were you I would jump on the MP15 straight away, but not through Origin. You see, Origin have a deal with Dux currently that states only Origin can supply the MP15 315 litre system anywhere in Australia, although other sub dealers can sell the MP15 250 litre system.

Dux has been a little bit cheeky, and has been invoicing resellers for the 250 litre system, and supplying them with the 315 system. Until June (I think it is), any other dealer selling Dux in Australia is buying the 315 litre at the same price as the 250 litre, and is able to quote cheaper than Origin. The only catch is, you have to find a dealer in SA who is aware of the MP15 debarkel with Origin!!

However it certainly is a good system, it is actually seen as more efficient than an Apricus evacuated tube 3115 litre system with a gas booster, under the eyes of VIPAK, who test the systems efficiency for STC values. I believe it is true, because although a continuous flow only heats the water you use as opposed to heating 62 litres of water at 70 degrees in a tank, the continuous flow uses 199mj/hr where as the in tank only uses 44mj/hr.

Just have to keep in mind that if you want the most energy efficient system there is, the more STC's it qualifies for, the more efficient it is!

[poppa smurf]

I just had my gas pipe upgraded to a monster pipe to accommodate the new range so supply would not be a problem......the old bag, er I mean my darling wife, had to have a new kitchen......never satisfied, the old one was a mere 25 years young...don't make things to last these days

okay......more STC'S more efficiency!

a bit of a debacle between origin and Dux Hmm!......if I was paying for the system outright I would probably go elsewhere to purchase but seeing as to how I'm not claiming my solar feed in credits as cash, and therefore dodging the "tax" thing I reckon i may just go with Origin

price doesn't matter as I wont be handing any cash over if I can believe the Origin salesman

I shall await my account with Lumo and see if I make the change to Origin and order the hot water thingy!

once again thanks for your invaluable advice!

[Stagg]

Originally Posted by z80

Far exceeds? No way.

Have a good read up mate...

http://www.firewood.asn.au/images/st...0emissions.pdf

Originally Posted by z80

I dunno about solar being the only option, and i am sure that full electric water heaters will always be available.

A bit hard to put solar hot water on a 37th floor apartment or a terrace house in the shade in inner city melbourne....

Keep reading...

http://www.news.com.au/business/auss...-1226226266914

Originally Posted by z80

I disagree...I've been alive long enough to realize that prices always go up almost immiediately when a rebate is in place.

Rebates stifle competition and encourage price fixing.

Prices usually go up by the exact amount that the rebate amounts to.

Solar panels, LPG conversions, solar hot water,roof insulation...all the same.

Ok, let's compare an electric hot water to a solar hot water.

Electric hot water replacement involves:

- Shutting of the duo (isolation) valve
- Connecting a hose pipe to the cold inlet on the tank, draining the tank to a garden, drainpipe or somewhere that it will not be a hazard
- Shutting off the element at the switchboard and unplugging from the tank
- Using two shifters, loosening the hot, cold & PTR lines from the tank.

When installing the new tank, those steps are reversed.

Split System Solar hot water replacing an electric involves:

All of the above plus:

- Running a new copper flow & return to the roof including lagging the pipework
- Installing sensors wired to the solar controller on the collector hot outlet, tank hot outlet & cold water inlet
- Installation of pump
- Bleeding the air out of the collector loop
- Installation of 60 degree tempering valve (Tank must be heated to 70 degrees although hot outlet must also not be over 60 degrees still)

Plus there is the added cost of the collectors, which with flat plate collectors are full of copper. 7 risers per collector of 1/4 inch pipe on a 2M panel = 14M copper pipe. Trade price @ $35 per meter = $490 copper per panel, plus manufacturing the panel itself, will all bring up the cost.

Normal water heaters do not have a solar pump or controller either, which is an added cost.

The price is higher for a reason, there is more installation work, and definitely more componentry. Especially with a gas boosted system, you are essentially purchasing a solar hot water AND a continuous flow gas booster.

[Stagg]

Originally Posted by poppa smurf

I'm not sure about my rebates and credits, I reckon I would have used them up on my array???

Sorry, just read that then..

You would still get STC's on the system, I'm not sure what state incentives there are in SA but there should be some.

[poppa smurf]

ah! okay, thanks.....I guess Origin will know!

they rang me back and asked if I was going to go ahead with the switch and the install of the solar hot water.......times are tough in the energy sales industry!

I'll wait for the account from Lumo and make a decision!.....should have had one by now, they read it on the 12th of this month

[z80]

Originally Posted by Stagg1991

...blah....Plus there is the added cost of the collectors, which with flat plate collectors are full of copper. 7 risers per collector of 1/4 inch pipe on a 2M panel = 14M copper pipe. Trade price @ $35 per meter = $490 copper per panel, plus manufacturing the panel itself, will all bring up the cost..

What you justifying panel manufacture costs based on spare parts bin prices?

$35 for a metre of 1/4 in pipe?

Try Bunnings mate.

Originally Posted by Stagg1991

Normal water heaters do not have a solar pump or controller either, which is an added cost..

Not all solar water heaters use electric pumps, thermo siphon works just fine.

Originally Posted by Stagg1991

The price is higher for a reason, there is more installation work, and definitely more componentry. Especially with a gas boosted system, you are essentially purchasing a solar hot water AND a continuous flow gas booster.

In victoria you are lucky if you have the conditions to have it working reliably heating solar 3-4 months of the year.

The price is mainly higher for a simple reason...PROFIT.


Biggest problem with solar hot water?

It never ever pays for itself.

Assuming a 15 year life span it just doesn't add up.



BTW...firewood assoc website link ignored (self interest group)

Murdoch press NEWS limited website also ignored....its Murdoch...

[Stagg]

Originally Posted by z80

The price is mainly higher for a simple reason...PROFIT.

I don't understand why you agree with PV but not solar hot water. If the extra cost is all profit, why would I have just been laid off for the business not making enough money, and just on monday all 16 of Rheem's reps got laid off in Melbourne alone??

[poppa smurf]

only going to get harder......juliar Gillard has axed all solar hot water rebates as of today and effective immediately!

[comagutsa]

bloody ranga ..shoot her now ... lets bring in a carbon tax put stop all the rebates and that on solar and stuff
i would of thought getting people to put as much solar on a house would be great for the enviroment ???

i just dont get it sometimes

[Stagg]

Originally Posted by poppa smurf

only going to get harder......juliar Gillard has axed all solar hot water rebates as of today and effective immediately!

your joking right???

[z80]

Originally Posted by Stagg1991

I don't understand why you agree with PV but not solar hot water. If the extra cost is all profit, why would I have just been laid off for the business not making enough money, and just on monday all 16 of Rheem's reps got laid off in Melbourne alone??

Probably cause they are now sourcing product from China, like a lot of other Australian manufacturing businesses...become a full import model.


A business that is modelled on a reliance for govt rebates is unsustainable.

Start your own solar hot water business.?

(I bet you the boss didn't pay you what he charged you out at)

[z80]

Originally Posted by Stagg1991

I don't understand why you agree with PV but not solar hot water. If the extra cost is all profit, why would I have just been laid off for the business not making enough money, and just on monday all 16 of Rheem's reps got laid off in Melbourne alone??

easy...

if it comes down to roof space for PV vs hot water i'll take the PV every time.

why?

cause my hot water is heated at 9c/Kw at night off peak.

And the roof space that solar hot water occupies can generate me 66c/kw during the day.


simple maths.

[z80]

Originally Posted by poppa smurf

only going to get harder......juliar Gillard has axed all solar hot water rebates as of today and effective immediately!

yep....only a matter of time till the Liberals come out with the 2 or 3 people that have fallen off rooves installing solar hot water systems...blah blah.

same as the insulation scheme, ignore the positives and focus on the negatives.