So is it the end of the Holden??

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Buntz93ED

It gets up my nose a bit too... that Holden fans walk around peacocking and wrapping on Ford, when their beloved Holden is pumping out tonnes of cars, selling a fair amount (over 40k units) and are on the verge of shutting up shop.

In fairness, I don't think Holden were ever going to shut up shop, that rumor was a distortion of the SA Permier
pretending to be a white knight championing Holden's cause and sending the wrong message to eager reporters.

Ford and Holden supporters need to be wary of vvankers in politics and journalism skewing reports to suit their own ends.
Both car makers are currently being portrayed in a bad light by all and sundry, no one mentions the $8 billion revenue generated..

[burnz]

jpd80 ppv 2010...11 units
2011...455 units

tidbit:
USA 11.6 million sale's from 32 brand's..
AUS 1.035 million sale's from 62 brand's..

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by burnz

jpd80 ppv 2010...11 units
2011...455 units

tidbit:
USA 11.6 million sale's from 32 brand's..
AUS 1.035 million sale's from 62 brand's..

OK, thanks for the info, Australia has a smorgasbord of brands for buyers to choose from,
so Ford and Holden will have to improve their game to keep pace with the competition.

I hope both bounce back this year and take a few sales back off the imports I have my
Fingers crossed for Cruze as Holden have spent a bunch bringing it here, they deserve A for effort.

[Buntz]

Originally Posted by jpd80

In fairness, I don't think Holden were ever going to shut up shop, that rumor was a distortion of the SA Permier
pretending to be a white knight championing Holden's cause and sending the wrong message to eager reporters.

Ford and Holden supporters need to be wary of vvankers in politics and journalism skewing reports to suit their own ends.
Both car makers are currently being portrayed in a bad light by all and sundry, no one mentions the $8 billion revenue generated..

True to that I suppose. Our sensationalist tabloid gutter press is bad enough.... don't need Politicians on an ego stroke to bend truths to take credit.

[jpd80]

What we also need to recognise is that those profits and losses are backed by $3.3 billion and $4.4 billion
in revenue generated by Ford and Holden respectively, so depending on internal debt levels and funds that
are associated with on going product development and delivery, those profits can be artificially small.

A lot of that money also flows out of Australia and back to other Ford and GM regions and their supplier base.
So the true cost value of Australia to these companies is masked behind behind inter company sales and transfers.

[1TUFFUTE]

Originally Posted by jpd80

What we also need to recognise is that those profits and losses are backed by $3.3 billion and $4.4 billion
in revenue generated by Ford and Holden respectively, so depending on internal debt levels and funds that
are associated with on going product development and delivery, those profits can be artificially small.

A lot of that money also flows out of Australia and back to other Ford and GM regions and their supplier base.
So the true cost value of Australia to these companies is masked behind behind inter company sales and transfers.

so someone tell me why holden doesnt have twice the revenue if they sell twice as much????

[1TUFFUTE]

Originally Posted by burnz

2000 – $16 million loss
2001 – $5.5 million loss
2002 – $20 million profit
2003 – $154 million profit
2004 – $192 million profit
2005 – $148 million profit
2006 – $40.3 million loss
2007 – $87.2 million loss
2008 – $274.4 million loss
2009 - $13 million profit
2010 - $25 million profit

so these figures...do they include any gov monies and such,tax and or the ammount they spend to build a platform or model?? Id be interested in figures that are pure and not inflated for chest pumping if you get my meaning. And i would expect holden should have at least twice the pure profits seeing as they r twice as big here.

[burnz]

Originally Posted by 1TUFFUTE

so these figures...do they include any gov monies and such,tax and or the ammount they spend to build a platform or model?? Id be interested in figures that are pure and not inflated for chest pumping if you get my meaning. And i would expect holden should have at least twice the pure profits seeing as they r twice as big here.

they are all "net" listing's.

[svo supporter]

Originally Posted by 1TUFFUTE

so someone tell me why holden doesnt have twice the revenue if they sell twice as much????

Production costs

[Luke Plaizier]

Originally Posted by jpd80

What we also need to recognise is that those profits and losses are backed by $3.3 billion and $4.4 billion
in revenue generated by Ford and Holden respectively, so depending on internal debt levels and funds that
are associated with on going product development and delivery, those profits can be artificially small.

So how much tax does that revenue generate?

GST and Stamp Duties on sale of cars.
Income tax for employees - manufacturing and sale.
Do they get tax credits on raw materials or is tax paid there too?
Other cost of sale - marketting, sponsorship

Tax collected from post sale running costs - fuel, oil, servicing, parts?

Should the government be advertising how much tax it collects as a result of the automative industry? Or does that open a bigger can of worms given they collect SO much more than they put back in to things like roadworks.


Lukeyson

[prydey]

stamp duty is a rort. they just keep collecting every time the car is sold until it ends up in the graveyard. it could equate to 1000's per car depending on how many times it gets sold.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Luke Plaizier

So how much tax does that revenue generate?

GST and Stamp Duties on sale of cars.
Income tax for employees - manufacturing and sale.
Do they get tax credits on raw materials or is tax paid there too?
Other cost of sale - marketting, sponsorship

Tax collected from post sale running costs - fuel, oil, servicing, parts?

Should the government be advertising how much tax it collects as a result of the automative industry? Or does that open a bigger can of worms given they collect SO much more than they put back in to things like roadworks.


Lukeyson

luke, I can tell you this, the GST is collected and rebated at each level,
passed on until the bloke at the end pays the lot, you guessed it the consumer.

So all vehicles sold unless going to business will attract GST but some
would argue that imported vehicle replacing locals would do the same.

Not sure about the other taxes you mentioned, employees pay tax but I
think Ford and Holden are mostly avoiding much of it by announcing low profits.

[dimka100]

Holden needs to build the next commy on this platform http://www.carpoint.com.au/news/2012...llac-ats-28390

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by dimka100

Holden needs to build the next commy on this platform http://www.carpoint.com.au/news/2012...llac-ats-28390

A Cruze sized RWD that weighs 1542 Kg, what prices are you hoping to get?

IMO, Ford should build Fusion/mondeo locally and make Falcon a near cousin that uses
the AWD Fusion/Mondeo from the fire wall back and Falcon/Mustang from the fire wall forward.
If Ford offered the rest of Ford a vehicle like that, I'm sure manufacturing it in north America would be a snap.

[Gobes32]

Originally Posted by jpd80

IMO, Ford should build Fusion/mondeo locally and make Falcon a near cousin that uses
the AWD Fusion/Mondeo from the fire wall back and Falcon/Mustang from the fire wall forward.
If Ford offered the rest of Ford a vehicle like that, I'm sure manufacturing it in north America would be a snap.

Somebody send this to head office, give us Mondeo production and allow America to build 4 door Mustang ala Falcon?

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by Gobes32

Somebody send this to head office, give us Mondeo production and allow America to build 4 door Mustang ala Falcon?

I think this is what eventually may happen, local CD4 production (which would give us Mondeo/Fusion sedan, hatch, wagon and next gen Ford Edge and maybe S-Max) and the consolation prize would be imported RHD Mustangs and some 4 door car based on it from the US.

[russellw]

Originally Posted by gtxb67

2000: $135 million net profit
2001: $285 million net profit
2002: $257 million net profit
2003: $287 million net profit
2004: $216 million net profit
2005: $145 million net loss
2006: $147 million net loss
2007: $6 million net loss
2008: $70 million net loss
2009: $211 million net loss
2010: $112 million net profit

cool, they are different to the figures i have seen, but the ones i saw may have been wrong

Holden

2010 +112.0
2009 -210.6
2008 -70.2
2007 -6.0
2006 -146.6
2005 -144.6
2004 +216.4
2003 +285.6
2002 +257.4
2001 +285.0
2000 +227.4

Total + 805.9 million

Ford over the same period is +129.6 million and Toyota Australia +1,100.2 million.

Cheers
Russ

[phillyc]

Originally Posted by jpd80

A Cruze sized RWD that weighs 1542 Kg, what prices are you hoping to get?

IMO, Ford should build Fusion/mondeo locally and make Falcon a near cousin that uses
the AWD Fusion/Mondeo from the fire wall back and Falcon/Mustang from the fire wall forward.
If Ford offered the rest of Ford a vehicle like that, I'm sure manufacturing it in north America would be a snap.

I could certainly see that working.

Ford global would then have an answer to the Mustang and differentiate the Taurus too. Plus provide a cost effective basis for a Lincoln.

FoA could produce locally per year
* Falcon/FPV continuing to kick on with 20,000 annual sales,
* Territory/Edge with 20,000,
* Fusion/Mondeo with another 20,000.

Broadmeadows would have diversity in product all getting good business, but importantly sharing so much under the skin. Volume could be driven by ever more attractive prices which are able to be delivered because of those economies of scale. They would all be competing in segments with reasonable transaction prices too.

[Gobes32]

Originally Posted by russellw

Holden

2010 +112.0
2009 -210.6
2008 -70.2
2007 -6.0
2006 -146.6
2005 -144.6
2004 +216.4
2003 +285.6
2002 +257.4
2001 +285.0
2000 +227.4

Total + 805.9 million

Ford over the same period is +129.6 million and Toyota Australia +1,100.2 million.

Cheers
Russ

No wonder Holden went with the Cross 8, one tonner, monaro etc. In the space of 4 years they made a billion dollar profit, they really could do no wrong.

[Joe5619]

I think Holden will unfortunately be hit with another big loss soon when they realize PPV is a massive failure!!

[bobthebilda]

Originally Posted by 1TUFFUTE

so someone tell me why holden doesnt have twice the revenue if they sell twice as much????

Holden dont sell twice as much as Ford Oz. They may if you only count local made, but the revenues include everything the local outfits do. From making and selling local built cars, selling imported cars, selling OEM parts and even doing engineering work for the Head Office.

[burnz]

Originally Posted by russellw

Holden

2010 +112.0
2009 -210.6
2008 -70.2
2007 -6.0
2006 -146.6
2005 -144.6
2004 +216.4
2003 +285.6
2002 +257.4
2001 +285.0
2000 +227.4

Total + 805.9 million

Ford over the same period is +129.6 million and Toyota Australia +1,100.2 million.

Cheers
Russ

do you have the toyota profits? yearly net.
2000~2010..

if i remember correctly they don't make a profit (1.1 bill), ha ha. and complain about paying tax..

[burnz]

Originally Posted by burnz

do you have the toyota profits? yearly net.
2000~2010..

if i remember correctly they don't make a profit (1.1 bill), ha ha. and complain about paying tax..

Toyota
2010 182.3
2009 173.7
2008 123.4
2007 242.2
2006 184.0
2005 54.9
2004 70.8
2003 67.0
2002 10.9
2001 -2.7
2000 -6.3

suppied by russ

[burnz]

Originally Posted by Joe5619

I think Holden will unfortunately be hit with another big loss soon when they realize PPV is a massive failure!!

i'm in two minds about that..
is holden exporting the ppv? take a hit.
or is GMNA importing the ppv? holden get near full retail.

i know its the same, but it's not when internal debt adjustments..if you know what i mean.

[XRDeeze]

thanks for coming... *toodles*

[Luke Plaizier]

If the Aus government were to stop providing handouts to local manufacturers, what would happen?

Ford would become a full importer and still be called Ford.

Toyota would become a full importer and be called Toyota.

But what would happen to Holden? Would they stay Holden? They'd struggle to justify that if they had no local product. Or would the name Chevrolet or Buick become the norm - given the GM branding stance in the rest of FAPA?


Lukeyson

[FAS33]

Now we can start bagging our mates about their beloved no more holden

If Holden made Millions in revenue what do they do with that money?? now they got all the yanks choices of cars/tanks.

[ivorya]

Originally Posted by Luke Plaizier

If the Aus government were to stop providing handouts to local manufacturers, what would happen?

Ford would become a full importer and still be called Ford.

Toyota would become a full importer and be called Toyota.

But what would happen to Holden? Would they stay Holden? They'd struggle to justify that if they had no local product. Or would the name Chevrolet or Buick become the norm - given the GM branding stance in the rest of FAPA?


Lukeyson

Or would the govenment help them by saying/suggesting all govenment cars have to be bought from them.
They'd still end up topping the sales charts and i can just see the advert's now craping on about 'Only Australian MADE car, Built by Australian's for Australia.....'

[Buntz]

Originally Posted by Gobes32

Somebody send this to head office, give us Mondeo production and allow America to build 4 door Mustang ala Falcon?

You'd want the yanks building our Falcon's? No thanks.

Do Yanks still leave empty coke cans behind door cards?

[burnz]

Originally Posted by Luke Plaizier

If the Aus government were to stop providing handouts to local manufacturers, what would happen?

Ford would become a full importer and still be called Ford.

Toyota would become a full importer and be called Toyota.

But what would happen to Holden? Would they stay Holden? They'd struggle to justify that if they had no local product. Or would the name Chevrolet or Buick become the norm - given the GM branding stance in the rest of FAPA?


Lukeyson

in most country's the department of defence, will need two fully capable automotive engineering company's for in times of war..
one company will be allowed to fold the others will be funded under national securitys.