Split thread: Older cars and safety

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by svo supporter

It's a pity people didn't comprehend what I was referring to when it comes to the electronics and how they can fail without warning. It's also apity people didn't read posting no 4 of the link I put up. It showed that the electrics can fail without warning. Instead people just read either the title, or a little bit of the thread as shown by the response.


Next time you're having a fuse replaced, or a relay replaced, just remember, it couldn't have just failed out of the blue.

Oh jesus. Safety systems aren't basic electronics. They are designed in a way so if there is one failure the system will still work as they have what is called duel redundancy. Any safety system that has some from of electrical/electronics has this put in.

Yes there is a chance for both to fail, but the chances are quite small. I guess you shouldn't trust traffic lights as they could all turn green on a stormy night and you could get t-boned.....

[Barry_v]

Originally Posted by geckoGT

It was not character assassination, it was just pointing out weaknesses that older technology has compared to the newer breed.

No, people are just ridiculously exaggerating subtle differences. If you examined the braking system from a four wheel disc brake XC and compared it to a (non abs equipped) late model car there is virtually no difference. In fact the XC had ventilated rear brake rotors, something that later model falcons didnt get equipped with again until recently. The only reason why an XC's brakes might 'feel' different is because the brake booster wasn't designed to provide quite as much assistance. Ford gradually increased the amount of assistance the booster gave over the years, as people became accustomed to less pedal pressure. So making out an XC's brakes are terrifyingly ineffective ancient technology (as UNR8D did) is simply ignorant.

Originally Posted by geckoGT

I think it needs to be considered that if we were paying todays prices for cars that do things no better than they did in 1977, we would be all feeling very ripped off.

Every day expensive new mobile phones are designed and sold, even though a decade old nokia brick will do the job just as well. phone companies are interested in selling phones, just as car companies are interested in selling cars. If you want to buy the latest iPhone, go for it. But don't try and convince me that it makes my 3310 nokia seem like smoke signals.

and xy500, couldnt agree with you more! even the most inept of mechanics could adjust the freeplay out of an XC's steering. When an AU is 30 years old the steering rack may have already fallen out completely.. that bit of weld spatter ford put on the mounting studs during the steering recall might not last that long!

[Interceptor]

my only concern about driving an older car that i treasured and getting hit by another car in an accident would be the jail time i'd be serving after i crawled outta the wreck and strangled the bastard that hit me!

[russellw]

Originally Posted by Barry_v

No, people are just ridiculously exaggerating subtle differences. If you examined the braking system from a four wheel disc brake XC and compared it to a (non abs equipped) late model car there is virtually no difference.

It's been a fair while since we had a non-ABS braked car in the Falcon line up and it was the addition of ABS that has improved the active safety - not any overall improvement in braking systems.

Originally Posted by Barry_v

When an AU is 30 years old the steering rack may have already fallen out completely.. that bit of weld spatter ford put on the mounting studs during the steering recall might not last that long!

That may well be the case but it is actually irrelevant to the actual topic under discussion. We could potentially predict a whole range of scenarios as to why a 40 year old Falcon in 2050 may be better/worse than a 40 year old Falcon in 2010 but it would be entirely off topic and a hypothetical in my case anyway as I'm not likely to be around for the outcome of such predictions.

Can we try and keep on topic rather than getting sidetracked into defense mode.

Russ

[UNR8D]

Originally Posted by Barry_v

No, people are just ridiculously exaggerating subtle differences. If you examined the braking system from a four wheel disc brake XC and compared it to a (non abs equipped) late model car there is virtually no difference. In fact the XC had ventilated rear brake rotors, something that later model falcons didnt get equipped with again until recently. The only reason why an XC's brakes might 'feel' different is because the brake booster wasn't designed to provide quite as much assistance. Ford gradually increased the amount of assistance the booster gave over the years, as people became accustomed to less pedal pressure. So making out an XC's brakes are terrifyingly ineffective ancient technology (as UNR8D did) is simply ignorant.



Every day expensive new mobile phones are designed and sold, even though a decade old nokia brick will do the job just as well. phone companies are interested in selling phones, just as car companies are interested in selling cars. If you want to buy the latest iPhone, go for it. But don't try and convince me that it makes my 3310 nokia seem like smoke signals.

and xy500, couldnt agree with you more! even the most inept of mechanics could adjust the freeplay out of an XC's steering. When an AU is 30 years old the steering rack may have already fallen out completely.. that bit of weld spatter ford put on the mounting studs during the steering recall might not last that long!

Get over it.

I may have used a play on words but compared to the other utter crap that has been posted on this topic at least mine had some basis of truth.

And I never said I HATED old cars, if you care to read my posts I like them, just wouldnt have one as a daily, not a HARD concept or though some of you seem to struggle.

We are talking about safety not having better ringtones or apps, its simple new cars are SAFER, this isn't going to be nice but its factual so deal with it, anyone who struggles with this concept needs their head read end of story.

[svo supporter]

Doesn't matter how old a car is. Maintenance is the key to non sloppy steering and braking. This forum is full of queries regarding these sorts of issues.

[Kryton]

But the majority of older cars arent maintained properly.

[block58]

Let's forget all this maintainance/crash preventative stuff for a second.

Hypothetically, if there was a head on collision which was to occur at 80kph (or any speed for that matter) then you would no doubt have a higher chance of survival in a newer, higher ANCAP rated car over an car from the 70s, etc..

[svo supporter]

Originally Posted by davway

But the majority of older cars arent maintained properly.

Much for muchness from what I have seen. If anything I tend to see people driving older cars spending money on tyres and front ends, just to make sure it's all upto scratch, as the locals tend to look harder at those cars, more than the newer ones.



In saying that, yes older ones do have more rust than newer ones, which does make them standout a little more, but with a fair few years of weather under their belt, that's understandable, to a point.

[Kryton]

Yawn.
Let me know when its over.
This is just ridiculous.

[xy500]

Originally Posted by russellw

It's been a fair while since we had a non-ABS braked car in the Falcon line up and it was the addition of ABS that has improved the active safety - not any overall improvement in braking systems.

the current egas ute has no abs...
lookout, a mod was wrong!

[UNR8D]

Originally Posted by xy500

the current egas ute has no abs...
lookout, a mod was wrong!

quick look at redbook and ford.com.au both show Egas having;

Standard vented disc brakes with twin piston caliper FRONT
Standard solid disc brake with single piston caliper REAR
3-Channel ABS with Electronic Brakeforce Distribution (EBD)

so no, your wrong... yet again.

[block58]

Originally Posted by xy500

the current egas ute has no abs...
lookout, a mod was wrong!

oh dear.

I believe you may have got ABS confused with DSC, which early FG egas models didn't get (but all get now).
Probably best to get your facts straight before you accuse an admin (or anyone for that matter) who knows his stuff of being incorrect.

[xy500]

Originally Posted by UNR8D

quick look at redbook and ford.com.au both show Egas having;

Standard vented disc brakes with twin piston caliper FRONT
Standard solid disc brake with single piston caliper REAR
3-Channel ABS with Electronic Brakeforce Distribution (EBD)

so no, your wrong... yet again.

ah fg, i meant bf, MY BAD, that's still pretty recent
A look under the hood, and an emergency stop confirms the distinct lack of abs and presence of brakes completely locked up. Didn't even need to use redbook for that one.
Please enlighten me to another post where I am wrong again professor?

[UNR8D]

SVO:

Since you think ABS is one little black wire I thought id enlighten you with the following. (taken from FF.com) AU SWB ABS wiring Diagram.



yup, one little black wire it is...

so I will suggest the following, how about the ones who believe that this earth is flat... I mean that older cars are safer or as safe as new cars go and get some proof, and return to the conversation when you have something to offer other then dribble and half baked idea's.

[UNR8D]

the current egas ute has no abs...

could have sworn you said current.

Current
Definition: Now passing, as time; as, the current month.

As in FG....

[UNR8D]

If you examined the braking system from a four wheel disc brake XC and compared it to a (non abs equipped) late model car there is virtually no difference.

right.. so 2 piston calipers and bigger braking surface area wouldnt improve breaking by much now would it? oh sorry living in 'reality' seems to have vastly different views to 'fantasyland'.

[xy500]

Originally Posted by UNR8D

could have sworn you said current.

Current
Definition: Now passing, as time; as, the current month.

As in FG....

eh, new cars they all look the same, fg, bf, ba what do I care? all I know it was a recent model (looked new) and had no abs, point and case. What does it matter what model it is?
Oh and btw, good job on working out how to use google dictionary, i'm sure it will help you immensley in future arguments debates.

[xy500]

Originally Posted by UNR8D

right.. so 2 piston calipers and bigger braking surface area wouldnt improve breaking by much now would it? oh sorry living in 'reality' seems to have vastly different views to 'fantasyland'.

when you consider the actual braking capacity compared to the mass of the vehicle... You'd see that larger capacity brakes are warranted on larger mass vehicles. So back to mass 101 an xc is lighter than an fg and therefore only needs smaller brake capacity to still be very effective at braking. You might want to do some research to as to just how braking surface area and number of caliper pistons actually improve braking, you might be surprised when your 80-0km braking distance doesn't change substantially.
And it's braking, not breaking (that's what you were just saying the new brakes don't do...)

[UNR8D]

ohhh i see what you did there.....

A BF will out brake a XC on any day you care to mention, on any road surface all things being equal quit arguing fact your wrong just admit it and move on.

bigger brake booster
better brake lines
bigger surface area on the rotors
better caliper set up
better suspension

if all else fails;
better structural rigidity
better crash/crumple zones
at least a driver airbag if not passenger as well and in sedans up to 4 including side thorax
pre tensioning seat belts

how hard is all this to understand... REALLY? I mean we have had FACTS posted, printed, videos, documentaries, real life experience from people whose job it is to be at the scene of accidents, a car industry whose focus has been for 20+ years to throw billions of dollars into safer cars and you just fly in the face of common sense and factual evidence..

I guess it is true that some people you just cant help, despite the fact they are blatantly wrong.

and instead of bringing facts into play to have a 'discussion' you go off on tangents trying to compare this with that, and throwing in left of field comments from SVO about how reliable an airbag or abs is?? yet never answering the same question you have asked from everyone else?... WHERE IS YOUR EVIDANCE?

[WMD351]

Originally Posted by xy500

So back to mass 101 an xc is lighter than an fg

Is this from the same person who spent the first half of this thread arguing that mass was the be all and end all of collision survival in an old car vs. new ?

[xy500]

Originally Posted by UNR8D

ohhh i see what you did there.....

A BF will out brake a XC on any day you care to mention, on any road surface all things being equal quit arguing fact your wrong just admit it and move on.

bigger brake booster
better brake lines
bigger surface area on the rotors
better caliper set up
better suspension

if all else fails;
better structural rigidity
better crash/crumple zones
at least a driver airbag if not passenger as well and in sedans up to 4 including side thorax
pre tensioning seat belts

how hard is all this to understand... REALLY? I mean we have had FACTS posted, printed, videos, documentaries, real life experience from people whose job it is to be at the scene of accidents, a car industry whose focus has been for 20+ years to throw billions of dollars into safer cars and you just fly in the face of common sense and factual evidence..

I guess it is true that some people you just cant help, despite the fact they are blatantly wrong.

and instead of bringing facts into play to have a 'discussion' you go off on tangents trying to compare this with that, and throwing in left of field comments from SVO about how reliable an airbag or abs is?? yet never answering the same question you have asked from everyone else?... WHERE IS YOUR EVIDANCE?

you're missing my point, i'm not arguing that older cars are safer, my bone to pick is with all the misinformation that people cling on to. As justification for why newer cars are so much betterer in every way than older cars. Sure they are shiny and easy to have, but a lot of the justification for consumerism is based on a false premise.
It must be nice to just swallow all the advertising lines sold to you without questioning them. But you should know what you're buying when you buy a new car. Of course the manufacturer wants you to think they are better in every way, and while they are an overall improvement in safety there are certain features that are over emphasised, and others that would be beneficial that aren't included in the product.
So when it comes to discussing the finer points of what makes a vehicle safer, you really need to have more information under your belt than "newer cars are good, I buy new car".
For example, you don't seem to think an xc model falcon brakes well enough. You may laugh at this but if you had the two vehicles with identical tyres (which is the determining factor here) the 1700 odd kg BF is going to take longer to stop than the 1500 odd kg XC, from a reasonable speed say 100km/h. But if you were to stop from a faster speed or take both cars racing at a track you would only then find the limitations of the XC brake design in its lower heat dissipation rate. Which for a passenger vehicle is of no concern, unless you carry large unbraked loads down steep hills or some other ill advised task.
Disregarding the 1000mm rotors and the 154 pot calipers, because when you are comparing these two cars you would find they are each set up for their own mass. Larger mass needs larger braking capacity. Bigger brake boosters are irrelevant if you've already locked your brakes up, the only major difference would be lighter brake pedal effort. Better brake lines, the only decent improvement you could do would be to use steel braided flex lines, again the only major noticeable effect is pedal feel in this case. Brake pad surface area only helps heat dissipation and will actually require greater clamping force to provide the same brake effort. And suspension would only help weight transfer, for a straight line stop won't help you a great deal as rear brakes only give ~30% of your braking force.
Structural rigidity and crumple zones are tied in together, you want the right mix of the two, so it's not like you can just dial both of them up.

I'd say the XC has brilliant brakes, there are cars that are less than 10 years old getting around on our roads with, shock and horror, drum brakes! How their drivers ever manage to stop is a wonder.
So do yourself a favour and find out what all the gadgetry does before you decide that bigger is better.

[xy500]

Originally Posted by WMD351

Is this from the same person who spent the first half of this thread arguing that mass was the be all and end all of collision survival in an old car vs. new ?

no, the person that was pointing out how an ultralight hatchback isn't your safest option. What's with burning the old car witches in this thread?
It's a fact the new car lovers club seems to want to dodge, the new falcons are heavy, especially on the world stage. But that mass can have its merits.

[WMD351]

Mamma said old cars are the devil

[xy500]

Originally Posted by WMD351

Mamma said old cars are the devil

well mammas never wrong! REEEEEeeeeeeeee........

[Barry_v]

Originally Posted by russellw

Can we try and keep on topic rather than getting sidetracked into defense mode.

sorry I can't keep it on topic russ, my XC keeps veering off in the wrong direction and then i have to wait a while for my brakes to bite

If only I had an FG with their 'better' (nice one UNR8D) brake lines!

[Barry_v]

Originally Posted by UNR8D

right.. so 2 piston calipers and bigger braking surface area wouldnt improve breaking by much now would it? oh sorry living in 'reality' seems to have vastly different views to 'fantasyland'.

For a start if you read my post, i wasnt comparing the XC's brakes to an FG, just an XC to any late model car. but if you must compare..

As xy500 pointed out they were still making falcons without ABS until very recently, so lets not get too hung up about ABS. going from an EL (single pot front) to an AU (twin pot front) braking system isnt exactly mind blowing. That was the only real upgrade in the 30 years from XC to FG. I'm not saying it didnt improve the brakes, I'm just saying there isn't this massive difference you're desperately trying to show though comical exaggeration.

if you were telling me an FG is a huge step forward from a 4 wheel unassisted drum brake XM falcon, you'd have a point.

on another note, its hilarious that new falcons still dont have ventilated rear discs like disc brake XCs.

[Bad Bird]

The funny thing is, most people don't realise that number of piston calipers is irrelevant for brake force.

[UNR8D]

If only I had an FG with their 'better' (nice one UNR8D) brake lines!

My point was an overall better brake package, but take it as you will *out of context*

As for the rest of your 'theory' xy500, you are wrong, but a few of us have covered that in previous replies so I'm not repeating myself again for those that are too thick to understand logic.

What's with burning the old car witches in this thread?

People don't like being called an idiot particularly when they are one, but ill let you re read everyone's posts in this 9 page long thread and I would like you to point out the 'HATEING' on old cars, no really I would because I know that everyone that has said and provided facts that NEW cars are safer in a CRASH than OLD cars, have also said they have either driven/driving or like old cars.

Its not about marketing, its about FACTS ffs... its proven beyond reasonable doubt that new cars crash better than old cars.

By the way is your way of winning an argument just arguing STUPID fact until everyone gives up an leaves? seems like your going the right direction.

[UNR8D]

Originally Posted by Bad Bird

The funny thing is, most people don't realise that number of piston calipers is irrelevant for brake force.

so ABS doesn't help?
Brake Assist (provides extra force when in an emergency brake situation) doesn't help?
EBD (distributes brake force to the wheels that have the most grip in lateral movement in an emergency brake situation) it doesn't help either?

anyone care to bring their ''well maintained'' old car to a nominated skidpan/test area and compare just how well they do?

although trying to clear up the original argument about when you crash and your survival rate of old vs new, would require 'dummies' and a very willing insurance company... we seem to have some of the dummy's required, I'm off to speak with AAMI...