The drug "Ice"

[bathurst-racer]

Originally Posted by StealthAu

People with problems can show issues with just about any substance. Just because there are alcoholics, as well as mentally unstable people who drink alcohol, this does not mean that anyone who has a drink will end up a train wreck.
But if we are only going to base our views on the extremes, compare those with alcohol abuse related problems to those who abuse cannabis.

I'm happy to compare the two and I don't see any difference.

[Ford_The_Win]

Originally Posted by StealthAu

But if we are only going to base our views on the extremes, compare those with alcohol abuse related problems to those who abuse cannabis.

It's irrelevant to the thread but just to clarify:

Both long term heavy alcohol abuse and long term heavy cannabis abuse demonstrate very similar outcomes -

-Both are associated poor social, educational, occupational and/or financial outcomes (meaning the abusers usually end up with poor social relationships, end up unemployed and/or broke) and the younger that the abuse begins, the more amplified these effects are.

-Both have serious long term health risks.

For alcohol abuse, metabolic issues include the obvious liver damage etc., and psychiatric issues like Korsakoff's syndrome/alcohol related dementia and dyskinesias (trembling/twitching like Parkinson's disease) to name a few off the top of my head.

For cannabis, smoking the substance presents the same health risks as tobacco smoking (cannabis smoke actually contains more carcinogens, tar and other nasty substances that are bad for your respiratory system) as well as some pretty serious psychiatric issues. The cannabinoids (active substance in cannabis sativa) effect numerous parts of the brain in different ways. Heavy long term cannabis use can lead to permanent psychosis and in individuals with certain genetic predispositions, can dramatically increase the risk of schizophrenic type illnesses. Heavy cannabis users are around five times more likely to develop other mental health issues later in life (conversely, the same study found that people who already had mental health issues were not more likely to use cannabis than healthy individuals).

Happy to provide references if needed. In a nutshell, both are pretty bad for you, alcohol has more immediate effects but cannabis is pernicious in it's approach. I wrote a research paper on the subject a few years ago

[Maka]

Have a suss of this, enviromental damage from the manufacturing of ice. Bugger me, when will it end?

http://www.msn.com/en-au/news/austra...id=mailsignout

cheer's, Maka

[pottery beige]

interesting concept

http://www.news.com.au/technology/sc...-1227196380184

[Maka]

Very plausable concept, good read PB! I would like to see more experiments based on this train of thought.

cheer's, Maka

[goo33]

If you have not yet been attacked by the bizarre, paranoid and extremely destructive and vexatious behaviour of the methamphetamines addict, you may think you've been lucky.

What most punters don't recognise is that the social cost arising from the meth addicts is unsustainable. They tie up every social institution from the police; social workers; mental health specialists; ambulances; Centrelink; rehab, the criminal justice system; schools; nurses. The list just goes on and on. There is no mechanism available to us to halt this. The social cost in time; people and money is astronomical.

It's about time we built a Prison in Australia like Angola in the US.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by goo33

If you have not yet been attacked by the bizarre, paranoid and extremely destructive and vexatious behaviour of the methamphetamines addict, you may think you've been lucky.

What most punters don't recognise is that the social cost arising from the meth addicts is unsustainable. They tie up every social institution from the police; social workers; mental health specialists; ambulances; Centrelink; rehab, the criminal justice system; schools; nurses. The list just goes on and on. There is no mechanism available to us to halt this. The social cost in time; people and money is astronomical.

It's about time we built a Prison in Australia like Angola in the US.

Maybe instead of spending tens of millions of $$$ to lock them up in some new fancy prison, maybe we go spending the money finding the root cause and fix that instead?

Maybe instead of being thrown in a 3x3m cell behind a locked door we can get to the bottom of the issue and turn their lives around and they can become productive people in society rather than throwing them into jail.

You can do it properly or you can spend more money hiding the problem, unfortunately we seem to spend more time and money trying to hide everything rather than deal with it properly in the first place.

[JC]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

Maybe instead of spending tens of millions of $$$ to lock them up in some new fancy prison, maybe we go spending the money finding the root cause and fix that instead?

Maybe instead of being thrown in a 3x3m cell behind a locked door we can get to the bottom of the issue and turn their lives around and they can become productive people in society rather than throwing them into jail.

You can do it properly or you can spend more money hiding the problem, unfortunately we seem to spend more time and money trying to hide everything rather than deal with it properly in the first place.

The root cause? The root cause is meth and it needs to be stopped - it is the black plague of our time......

[goo33]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

Maybe instead of spending tens of millions of $$$ to lock them up in some new fancy prison

Any Meth Addict costs society/community (whatever)TWENTY TIMES what a heroin addict costs us.

Doubters can google that.

Any idea how much damage just one heroin addict can do in a night?

Angola is a prison farm, the size of a small country, and, far as I know, pays for itself.

I hope bleeding hearts get a meth lab next door. Then the niave tunes'll change.

[Dash_XR]

Originally Posted by StealthAu

People with problems can show issues with just about any substance. Just because there are alcoholics, as well as mentally unstable people who drink alcohol, this does not mean that anyone who has a drink will end up a train wreck.
But if we are only going to base our views on the extremes, compare those with alcohol abuse related problems to those who abuse cannabis.

Ok, king hitting random strangers or bashing your spouse in front of your kids compared to laughing at jokes that aren't funny, eating 3 bags of Doritos then falling asleep on the couch.

I do agree though, people love to blame anything but themselves for their actions.

[goo33]

The US doesn't mess around with meth heads:

Ricky Minor, a meth addict and father of three, was found with 1.2 grams of meth in his home, along with over-the-counter decongestants that can be used to manufacture meth. Judge Clyde Roger Vinson to sentenced him to life without parole.

Life without parole.

[ute83]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

Maybe instead of spending tens of millions of $$$ to lock them up in some new fancy prison, maybe we go spending the money finding the root cause and fix that instead.

The root cause is that it is a major income stream for organised crime.

[richo77]

Originally Posted by goo33

The US doesn't mess around with meth heads:

Ricky Minor, a meth addict and father of three, was found with 1.2 grams of meth in his home, along with over-the-counter decongestants that can be used to manufacture meth. Judge Clyde Roger Vinson to sentenced him to life without parole.

Life without parole.

He would have been on his third strike, you dont just get life imprisonment for a relatively minor offence like that.

[zdcol71]

Interesting to read a compassionate story or two asking why we don't spend the money required to find root causes of societies ills, rather than just the obvious and immediate solution of locking people up. What I actually find interesting is how this compassion or search for more profound cures to society's' ills translates so differently over the gamut of a thousand other conversations on this forum where the first response is often to "lock em up for life" or "let em get what they deserve when Big Bubba gets hold of em"

[goo33]

Originally Posted by richo77

He would have been on his third strike, you dont just get life imprisonment for a relatively minor offence like that.

Minor had several prior nonviolent offenses, for which he had never served time, and these required Judge Clyde Roger Vinson to sentence him to life without parole.

Credit to the Yanks for a Zero Tolerance approach.

[Maka]

I expect all levels of government in the near future to reasess their policies on ice because of the dangerous overall impact on the community & the country, if they use the same zeal as the way they target road speeder's they can do a lot of good work.

cheer's, Maka

[johnydep]

Ice - Crystal Meth causes brain damage and has a low mortality rate.

Hours after you’ve taken Crystal Meth the receptors in your brain start to turn off the natural production of dopamine. But unlike other stimulants like cocaine that allow the brain cells to re-capture & package dopamine, Crystal Meth does not! Instead the brain receptor cells respond by releasing an enzyme that destroys any extra dopamine. With repeated use over time these enzymes permanently destroy dopamine cells. This leads to chemical changes in the brain that affect the way it works. This condition is known as METHAMPHETAMINE-INDUCED BRAIN DAMAGE. And this is why CRYSTAL METH IS NEURO-TOXIC! http://www.drugbeat.org/Facts&Effect...hetamines.html

Making it the dealers ideal drug of sale.

Lost a couple of friends and a cousin to that shyte. My best mate got hooked about 9 years ago http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=13646 lost his business, family, home, friends and most everything else that he once held dear. I don't see him anymore, because he's not the same person, but I do know that he is still capable of working and does so to fund his addiction.

We all think that we're invincible and that 'it's never going to happen to me' (become addicted), but anything that permanently alters the brain is going to cause change. Once that happens you're not the same person with the same thoughts.

Don't try it, don't use it, don't condone it.

[superyob]

Hang drug dealers/distributors/mules... The answer is in plain sight...

Yeh I know, 'it won't work because...'

I bet it will put a stop to the plague proportions of users though...

[Polyal]

I certainly think it would be nice to hear when big busts are done how far the path is followed back.

Is it cynical to think that there is alot of economic growth created by these worms aswell? (obviously aside from all the negatives mentioned).

Or is drug money just stashed and used on the black market?

[Ross 1]

Originally Posted by goo33

Minor had several prior nonviolent offenses, for which he had never served time, and these required Judge Clyde Roger Vinson to sentence him to life without parole.

Credit to the Yanks for a Zero Tolerance approach.

The three strike policy has proven to endanger police officers lives ,as criminals are more and more willing to try and shot their way out of a situation where they know they are going to prison for life.

[goo33]

So what?...

You're saying don't arrest criminals because they will shoot police?

Geez, why didn't I think of that.

[Ross 1]

So police are officers disposable? They shouldn't have to get to the paranoid stage they are in the USA. Bullet proof vests and hand on gun to issue a speeding ticket. Yes they should be aware of possible danger, the shooting of cops not only endangers them but innocent bystanders as well.
Look I can use smilies too

[goo33]

I'll shout this into his other ear...

SO YOU'RE SAYING DON'T ARREST CRIMINALS BECAUSE THEY WILL SHOOT POLICE?

[Ross 1]

At no point in my reply did I say don't arrest criminals, I just don't believe we have to blindly follow the US down this path. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, they are like *********, everyones got one. In my opinion knee jerk reactions to a problem are not the best kind of reaction. Research the good and the bad of a ruling.
http://www.balancedpolitics.org/three_strikes.htm

[goo33]

So what are you saying?

If there is an outstanding warrant against an alleged criminal, then what is your proposition?

Really I'd like to hear it.

[Ross 1]

If there is an outstanding warrant where they are dealing with a known criminal, by all means deal with him to the full extent of the law. If that involves returning fire or even shooting first if they believe their lives are at risk, go for it , back them 100%. The danger I see for law enforcement is the unknown factor, which they already have to a certain extent, when pulling over a car or arresting someone in a public area and that criminal opening fire to try and avoid going to jail for life. Or in some cases, again in the US , where they opt for death by cop, deliberately trying to be shot in the shoot out rather than jail time. That is my position on the matter.

[nuthin' fancy]

Let's keep to the subject of the OP.

[GasoLane]

Originally Posted by superyob

I bet it will put a stop to the plague proportions of users though...

No it won't. Simply because the Ice users that can think, don't think that far ahead. Their thoughts usually only go as far as the next day.............maybe.

The only way that I can see would be to break the supply chain, then free (Gov sponsored) help and rehab for users.

The way it is now is that it's up to the user, their families, and sometimes their friends to get them off of it.

[superyob]

Originally Posted by GasOLane

No it won't. Simply because the Ice users that can think, don't think that far ahead. Their thoughts usually only go as far as the next day.............maybe.

The only way that I can see would be to break the supply chain, then free (Gov sponsored) help and rehab for users.

The way it is now is that it's up to the user, their families, and sometimes their friends to get them off of it.

Less dealers = less users...

[pottery beige]

Originally Posted by superyob

Less dealers = less users...

goodluck, those in the midst of a deep drug addiction are extremely resourceful people

Originally Posted by GasOLane

No it won't. Simply because the Ice users that can think, don't think that far ahead. Their thoughts usually only go as far as the next day.............maybe.

The only way that I can see would be to break the supply chain, then free (Gov sponsored) help and rehab for users.

The way it is now is that it's up to the user, their families, and sometimes their friends to get them off of it.

unfortunately for friends and family its very much a matter of being there and being supportive for when one has had enough

fortunately if there is a support network there is hope