SS vs XR8 and the winner is...... - Page 9

**kypez** · 23-12-2014, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adrenaline

Finally, a review where the cars were actually driven. They've come upon literally every point I raised about these cars a number of pages back. "R Spec" is a slick name, but it was never going to be competitive. Handling isn't the FGX's party trick, I doubt any XR8 owners will be disappointed with the outcome. As Caradvice correctly stated, they're polar opposites. Grunt vs dynamic finesse.

Just cause 1 guy didnt know how to drive the car doesnt mean its slow. Look at the F1 this year, Ricciardo and Vettel had the same car but one guy didnt like boost and the other did. Does it mean the car is slower?

Same thing here. Clearly the guy driving it doesnt understand how to drive the XR8 to its limit. Thats all I saw in that review...

**Dave R** · 23-12-2014, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTP534

Surely you jest??

In the context of the lap time comparison it was very competitive.

In the context of lap time alone, some might say that the XR8's performance was quite frankly embarrassing. It has 100kw more at the wheels, yet it still produced a slower lap time. 3 tenths is not insignificant on a short circuit like Wakefield either. Picture the result if you took 100rwkw away from the XR8 and gave it to the Redline. It would be very ugly. It really demonstrates how much more capable the chassis is when a car with such a huge power deficit still laps quicker. The only thing keeping the XR8 in the race is its grunt, plain and simple. It makes up time darting between corners and powering down the main straight. That has nothing to do with handling.

It's also not as simple as examining the lap time difference- because it will change depending on which track you visit. Some tracks I expect the XR8 would produce a better time simply because of how fast it can run in the straight sections. Tracks like Phillip Island or Sandown would really suit the XR8- but at the same time they are completely irrelevant to the real world as you can't do 240km/h down your favourite mountain road. Whereas if you took them to a tighter track like Broadford for instance, the Redline would extend its margin.

Then aside from the XR8's outright performance on the track, the reasons why it fell over compared to the much less powerful car were made clear. It's still front heavy (something I've said again and again- a set of shocks won't overcome physics), it's tail happy (far too much power for the CB IRS, which is snappy), it suffers on turn in and mid corner grip (they even reference the pov pack Falcon models having "better overall chassis agility and balance" because again, "R spec" shocks cannot defeat physics), they also referenced the R Spec setup feeling "wooden and one-dimensional in sweepers". While the Redline received nothing but praise for its steering, turn-in, mid-corner grip, chassis balance and was even labelled as better than the current M3 as far as steering crispness and control.

So no, I wasn't joking. The "R Spec" Falcon was outperformed by a lazy SS with 100rwkw less. What does that tell you about the chassis of each car? And that's not taking away anything from the XR8, it wasn't designed to eat up corners like the Redline which is a handling package over the standard SS. I've said it before, it's all largely irrelevant to somebody who buys an XR8, they know exactly what the XR8 is and that's a muscle car. I think more people are interested in grunt than handling anyway. Look how popular the XR8 is at the moment- 335kw is an easy sell.

LoudPipes · 23-12-2014, 04:50 PM

I constantly read this same argument on MBWorld about the M3/4 and C63.

Finesse versus brutality.

The only difference is the argument is not clouded by kit as both brands are reasonably well loaded.

For the fanboys who can’t respect the competition it’s nothing but a continuous circle of the same rehash, for the fence sitters who make up the majority it's much simpler.

They agree both have good points and it’s just a matter of name your poison and enjoy it for what it is.

701let · 23-12-2014, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kypez

Just cause 1 guy didnt know how to drive the car doesnt mean its slow. Look at the F1 this year, Ricciardo and Vettel had the same car but one guy didnt like boost and the other did. Does it mean the car is slower?

Same thing here. Clearly the guy driving it doesnt understand how to drive the XR8 to its limit. Thats all I saw in that review...

You can't be serious? Same driver, back to back, same day..

The XR LOOKED quicker In a straight line but it looked and sounded all over the place around the track

The SS LOOKED far slower in a straight line but it looked so balanced through the bends and under brakes

You could see this plainly with the naked eye ??

baboon · 23-12-2014, 04:59 PM

We're only human, people make mistakes, deep down SS buyers realise this....

**kypez** · 23-12-2014, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 701let

You can't be serious? Same driver, back to back, same day..

The XR LOOKED quicker In a straight line but it looked and sounded all over the place around the track

The SS LOOKED far slower in a straight line but it looked so balanced through the bends and under brakes

You could see this plainly with the naked eye ??

Cause he can't drive the XR8 the way it needs to be driven! He's all over ghee shop. Clearly accelerating too hard too early out of corners robbing him of time.

his driving style isn't correct for the car. Just cause you have the same driver in the car for both just suggests he was more comfortable in the ssv and it suited him better.

**Dave R** · 23-12-2014, 05:20 PM

You should write him a stern letter.

**kypez** · 23-12-2014, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adrenaline

You should write him a stern letter.

Sure... if you think it will improve his driving

**Dave R** · 23-12-2014, 05:34 PM

Not sure, he's spent the last 30 years practicing, if he's no good by now I'd say he's a lost cause.

Quote:

John 'Boz' Boston is the driving force behind Trackschool. John started in motorsport in 1983 and has competed at state, national and international level in a variety of categories on both bitumen and dirt.

He won the 1989 Toyota/Modern MOTOR competition ‘Search For A Champion’ and has won nine state and three Australian championships in Motorkhanas, three state Khanacross rally sprint championships, multiple Improved Production Car titles, drove for Mazda Australia in Japan in endurance events, won the NSW round of the Australian Tarmac Challenge in 2010 and also titles in 2008, 2009, 2010 at World Time Attack.

John made his debut in the Fujitsu V8 Supercars at Homebush in 2010 and finished 10th. John is a full time driver with Australias only precision drive team, formerly known as the Holden Precision Drive Team, then V6 Hilux Heroes, now ISUZU Team D-MAX. Boz also works in advanced driver training and is a test driver for leading motoring publications.

Here he is smiling with the enemy.

**Falcon Coupe** · 23-12-2014, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adrenaline

Tracks like Phillip Island or Sandown would really suit the XR8- but at the same time they are completely irrelevant to the real world as you can't do 240km/h down your favourite mountain road. Whereas if you took them to a tighter track like Broadford for instance, the Redline would extend its margin.

You can do double the advisory corner limit and then some on your favorite mountain road in the XR8 without it missing an apex or even a hint of tyre slide.
Anything more belongs on a track the same as 240kph down down a straight.

The real world world consists of traffic lights and lots of them. I know what I'd rather be in when they go green ;)

**kypez** · 23-12-2014, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adrenaline

Not sure, he's spent the last 30 years practicing, if he's no good by now I'd say he's a lost cause.

Here he is smiling with the enemy.

image

Funny, the car was only launched last month...

If you can't appreciate that some drivers prefer different types of cars then you'll never get my point...

Maka · 23-12-2014, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adrenaline

In the context of lap time alone, some might say that the XR8's performance was quite frankly embarrassing. It has 100kw more at the wheels, yet it still produced a slower lap time. 3 tenths is not insignificant on a short circuit like Wakefield either. Picture the result if you took 100rwkw away from the XR8 and gave it to the Redline. It would be very ugly. It really demonstrates how much more capable the chassis is when a car with such a huge power deficit still laps quicker. The only thing keeping the XR8 in the race is its grunt, plain and simple. It makes up time darting between corners and powering down the main straight. That has nothing to do with handling.

It's also not as simple as examining the lap time difference- because it will change depending on which track you visit. Some tracks I expect the XR8 would produce a better time simply because of how fast it can run in the straight sections. Tracks like Phillip Island or Sandown would really suit the XR8- but at the same time they are completely irrelevant to the real world as you can't do 240km/h down your favourite mountain road. Whereas if you took them to a tighter track like Broadford for instance, the Redline would extend its margin.

Then aside from the XR8's outright performance on the track, the reasons why it fell over compared to the much less powerful car were made clear. It's still front heavy (something I've said again and again- a set of shocks won't overcome physics), it's tail happy (far too much power for the CB IRS, which is snappy), it suffers on turn in and mid corner grip (they even reference the pov pack Falcon models having "better overall chassis agility and balance" because again, "R spec" shocks cannot defeat physics), they also referenced the R Spec setup feeling "wooden and one-dimensional in sweepers". While the Redline received nothing but praise for its steering, turn-in, mid-corner grip, chassis balance and was even labelled as better than the current M3 as far as steering crispness and control.

So no, I wasn't joking. The "R Spec" Falcon was outperformed by a lazy SS with 100rwkw less. What does that tell you about the chassis of each car? And that's not taking away anything from the XR8, it wasn't designed to eat up corners like the Redline which is a handling package over the standard SS. I've said it before, it's all largely irrelevant to somebody who buys an XR8, they know exactly what the XR8 is and that's a muscle car. I think more people are interested in grunt than handling anyway. Look how popular the XR8 is at the moment- 335kw is an easy sell.

Just wondering about the XR8's stock tire's (like if they're no good for track work) & if the SS has better tire's (for track work) from the factory?

Surely a new set of stickier tires will transform the XR8 into a SS muncher around a track even if the SS had the same stickier tires?

cheers, Maka

asagaai · 23-12-2014, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adrenaline

In the context of lap time alone, some might say that the XR8's performance was quite frankly embarrassing. It has 100kw more at the wheels, yet it still produced a slower lap time. 3 tenths is not insignificant on a short circuit like Wakefield either. Picture the result if you took 100rwkw away from the XR8 and gave it to the Redline. It would be very ugly. It really demonstrates how much more capable the chassis is when a car with such a huge power deficit still laps quicker. The only thing keeping the XR8 in the race is its grunt, plain and simple. It makes up time darting between corners and powering down the main straight. That has nothing to do with handling.

It's also not as simple as examining the lap time difference- because it will change depending on which track you visit. Some tracks I expect the XR8 would produce a better time simply because of how fast it can run in the straight sections. Tracks like Phillip Island or Sandown would really suit the XR8- but at the same time they are completely irrelevant to the real world as you can't do 240km/h down your favourite mountain road. Whereas if you took them to a tighter track like Broadford for instance, the Redline would extend its margin.
.

Wakefield is a very tight track, with only 1 short straight for the XR8 to get the benefit of the extra power. The rest of the time, the extra power would not have assisted the XR8, and depending on whether the driver drove with traction control on, it may have actually further feathered the times.

Also, there is commentary that the XR8 Dunlops are not up to the speed of the the Holden's Bridgestones? I accept that the tyres are what is there standard, but would be interesting to up spec good rubber like Continentals/Toyos on both and see, cause lets face it, 30,000 max tyres will be upgraded.

But- are plenty of roads I will be using the XR8 grunt on I can assure you, but I will look at better rubber and what shocks could improve handling. I also may look at moving the battery into a module to the mid boot to vary weight distribution from front to back.

Had this done to my rally Cortina and it is amazing with pendulum lever physics what moving 20kg odd over some 3.5 metres will do....

**Dave R** · 23-12-2014, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asagaai

Wakefield is a very tight track, with only 1 short straight for the XR8 to get the benefit of the extra power. The rest of the time, the extra power would not have assisted the XR8, and depending on whether the driver drove with traction control on, it may have actually further feathered the times.

Also, there is commentary that the XR8 Dunlops are not up to the speed of the the Holden's Bridgestones? I accept that the tyres are what is there standard, but would be interesting to up spec good rubber like Continentals/Toyos on both and see, cause lets face it, 30,000 max tyres will be upgraded.

But- are plenty of roads I will be using the XR8 grunt on I can assure you, but I will look at better rubber and what shocks could improve handling. I also may look at moving the battery into a module to the mid boot to vary eight distribution from front to back.

Had this done to my rally Cortina and it is amazing with pendulum lever physics what moving 20kg odd over some 3.5 metres will do....

I did the battery relocation to the boot on my old FG turbo, you really do feel the difference. Ford unfortunately have mounted the heavy battery in about the most inconvenient place as far as weight distribution goes. I actually still have the 0 gauge cable cut to suit an FG battery relocation, if you're in Sydney shoot me a PM as it's just collecting dust in my garage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Falcon Coupe

You can do double the advisory corner limit and then some on your favorite mountain road in the XR8 without it missing an apex or even a hint of tyre slide.
Anything more belongs on a track the same as 240kph down down a straight.

The real world world consists of traffic lights and lots of them. I know what I'd rather be in when they go green ;)

I don't even do traffic light duels anymore, my license has been through enough

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maka

Just wondering about the XR8's stock tire's (like if they're no good for track work) & if the SS has better tire's (for track work) from the factory?

Surely a new set of stickier tires will transform the Falcon into a SS muncher around a track even if the SS had the same stickier tires?

cheers, Maka

The Redline doesn't get special tyres like the HSVs but it's still a good point. The 19" Dunlops start off sticky, but they fall over very early on in their life. The RE05As on the Commodores perform pretty consistently as they wear. It would be interesting to know how many kays each car had. My current FG has Toyo R1Rs on it, as you can imagine they totally transform the car.

skoobysGT · 23-12-2014, 06:10 PM

And the winner is....

The XR8...but only just!

I'm not just saying this because its a Ford Forum. I honestly believe the XR8 is and will be, the best 'bang for your buck' purchase for the next couple of years.

I can understand how someone like Graphicgoose would trade in his GT for a new SSV Redline. In my opinion, they are fantastic looking cars. They handle magnificantly and are loaded with heaps of gadgets and technology. The cabin is miles ahead of the XR8 in terms of finesse and comfort and don't forget, it still has a thumping 6.0 litre V8 beneath the bonnet!!! I believe they make awesome daily drivers and that is why some people would prefer the SS over the XR8.

However (and this is a huge HOWEVER).. it does not compete with the XR8 in terms of mind-blowing acceleration and spine-numbling fun!! To me, the engine is everything..it's the heart of a car.

That is the reason why I didn't trade "down" my GT for a new SS or even a Clubsport R8 for that matter. (But to be fair to Graphicgoose here, his GT was giving him troubles from day dot so I don't really blame him for being put off by the GT). For me, it was only the new GTS or nothing. I did consider a GTF (Octane with black stripes *drools*) but at the end of the day, the GTS has both the performance and technology that I would expect from a modern day car and that is why I went down the Holden path.

But getting back on track, dollar for dollar, I would choose the XR8 over the SS purely for the grunt and rawness of the Miami...whether it's a daily or not.

asagaai · 23-12-2014, 06:32 PM

[QUOTE=Adrenaline;5288980]I did the battery relocation to the boot on my old FG turbo, you really do feel the difference. Ford unfortunately have mounted the heavy battery in about the most inconvenient place as far as weight distribution goes. I actually still have the 0 gauge cable cut to suit an FG battery relocation, if you're in Sydney shoot me a PM as it's just collecting dust in my garage.

Hey- thanks for the offer, I will take you up on it- I am in Newcastle but a quick drive down M1 when I am next in Sydney...I will send you a PM with some technical queries about the feasibility and practicality - ie what you found with electrical wash off in voltage using lines....

Cheers

SensationFG8 · 23-12-2014, 06:37 PM

Interesting the article mentions the ability to spin up all the way through to 3rd with ease. Any comment on that from the group of guys who couldn't manage it in 2nd?

**Dave R** · 23-12-2014, 07:06 PM

To be fair they didn't actually say it spun up, just that the light blinked until 3rd. There's a sizeable difference between the DSC light blinking (it's extremely sensitive to the tiniest amounts of slip it is capable of detecting) and full blown wheelspin. If the road surface was poor and/or wet, different story.

SensationFG8 · 23-12-2014, 07:13 PM

Yeah fair point, turn it off and bury it in a manual and it gets plenty of spin though I can promise you that

**Dave R** · 23-12-2014, 07:49 PM

Yeah I doubt it takes much to murder tyres in a manual 351, those GTFs have some balls, different ballgame to an automatic 335.

MethodX · 23-12-2014, 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adrenaline

Not sure, he's spent the last 30 years practicing, if he's no good by now I'd say he's a lost cause.

Here he is smiling with the enemy.

image

Smiling with the equal friend....

GTP534 · 23-12-2014, 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adrenaline

In the context of lap time alone, some might say that the XR8's performance was quite frankly embarrassing. It has 100kw more at the wheels, yet it still produced a slower lap time. 3 tenths is not insignificant on a short circuit like Wakefield either. Picture the result if you took 100rwkw away from the XR8 and gave it to the Redline. It would be very ugly. It really demonstrates how much more capable the chassis is when a car with such a huge power deficit still laps quicker. The only thing keeping the XR8 in the race is its grunt, plain and simple. It makes up time darting between corners and powering down the main straight. That has nothing to do with handling.

It's also not as simple as examining the lap time difference- because it will change depending on which track you visit. Some tracks I expect the XR8 would produce a better time simply because of how fast it can run in the straight sections. Tracks like Phillip Island or Sandown would really suit the XR8- but at the same time they are completely irrelevant to the real world as you can't do 240km/h down your favourite mountain road. Whereas if you took them to a tighter track like Broadford for instance, the Redline would extend its margin.

Then aside from the XR8's outright performance on the track, the reasons why it fell over compared to the much less powerful car were made clear. It's still front heavy (something I've said again and again- a set of shocks won't overcome physics), it's tail happy (far too much power for the CB IRS, which is snappy), it suffers on turn in and mid corner grip (they even reference the pov pack Falcon models having "better overall chassis agility and balance" because again, "R spec" shocks cannot defeat physics), they also referenced the R Spec setup feeling "wooden and one-dimensional in sweepers". While the Redline received nothing but praise for its steering, turn-in, mid-corner grip, chassis balance and was even labelled as better than the current M3 as far as steering crispness and control.

So no, I wasn't joking. The "R Spec" Falcon was outperformed by a lazy SS with 100rwkw less. What does that tell you about the chassis of each car? And that's not taking away anything from the XR8, it wasn't designed to eat up corners like the Redline which is a handling package over the standard SS. I've said it before, it's all largely irrelevant to somebody who buys an XR8, they know exactly what the XR8 is and that's a muscle car. I think more people are interested in grunt than handling anyway. Look how popular the XR8 is at the moment- 335kw is an easy sell.

Based on the laps done at Wakefield Park the XR8 was competitive; even John Boston said the corners were difficult with plenty of scope to lose time but even then he complimented both cars on getting into the 1:11's. It's in that context I asked the question.

The wooden and one-dimensional reference was only in sweepers and even the article said in some instances the XR8 was better for being one-dimensional.

I don't think the article was biased in any way; they gave credit to both marques where it was due and I found it entertaining.

I don't understand why you bag out the R-Spec suspension when the opportunity presents itself. Not even caradvice did that.

b0son · 23-12-2014, 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kypez

Cause he can't drive the XR8 the way it needs to be driven!

And your racing experience no doubt eclipses his....

**kypez** · 23-12-2014, 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by b0son

And your racing experience no doubt eclipses his....

And what has that got to do with the price of rice?

(But I will add that I have done a quicker time than he did with the GTF at Wakefield which is very similar in setup to the XR8, albeit mine is a manual. Take from that what you want. But I've spent a lot more time learning how to drive the GTF)

As I said, if Daniel/Vettel and even Lowndes/Wincup can have identical cars but yet yield very different results suggests that just cause a guy drives two cars, back to back, that he will be instantly at peace with the car is wishful thinking.

graphicgoose · 23-12-2014, 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skoobysGT

And the winner is....

The XR8...but only just!

I'm not just saying this because its a Ford Forum. I honestly believe the XR8 is and will be, the best 'bang for your buck' purchase for the next couple of years.

I can understand how someone like Graphicgoose would trade in his GT for a new SSV Redline. In my opinion, they are fantastic looking cars. They handle magnificantly and are loaded with heaps of gadgets and technology. The cabin is miles ahead of the XR8 in terms of finesse and comfort and don't forget, it still has a thumping 6.0 litre V8 beneath the bonnet!!! I believe they make awesome daily drivers and that is why some people would prefer the SS over the XR8.

However (and this is a huge HOWEVER).. it does not compete with the XR8 in terms of mind-blowing acceleration and spine-numbling fun!! To me, the engine is everything..it's the heart of a car.

That is the reason why I didn't trade "down" my GT for a new SS or even a Clubsport R8 for that matter. (But to be fair to Graphicgoose here, his GT was giving him troubles from day dot so I don't really blame him for being put off by the GT). For me, it was only the new GTS or nothing. I did consider a GTF (Octane with black stripes *drools*) but at the end of the day, the GTS has both the performance and technology that I would expect from a modern day car and that is why I went down the Holden path.

But getting back on track, dollar for dollar, I would choose the XR8 over the SS purely for the grunt and rawness of the Miami...whether it's a daily or not.

Cheers Scooby, I rather like the look of my new car also

It's completely different coming form the GT as it's totally understated and very Euro in its presence...which I actually kinda like. Flies under the radar (hopefully). When I originally contemplated trading the GT I initially wanted a GTS...but once I started looking into it I was looking at a $40k change-over cost between the two and at this point in time I just couldn't justify the extra coin. In the end I just wanted to get as close to $0 change-over cost as I could. For now I'll just have to live vicariously through you

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adrenaline

To be fair they didn't actually say it spun up, just that the light blinked until 3rd. There's a sizeable difference between the DSC light blinking (it's extremely sensitive to the tiniest amounts of slip it is capable of detecting) and full blown wheelspin. If the road surface was poor and/or wet, different story.

This was exactly my point. Now remember my GT was a stock GT 335 manual with Shockworks coilovers and Rspec rear wheels. On my FPV drive day my traction control light was flashing up down the main straight at the top of 2nd and 3rd. But when I'd driven it the same way on the road with the traction control off it didn't break loose and slide around. It felt a little lighter at the rear, but wasn't baggin' up yo...

Quote:

Originally Posted by SensationFG8

Yeah fair point, turn it off and bury it in a manual and it gets plenty of spin though I can promise you that

Perhaps this is more apparent in the GTF than the regular GT 335, as that extra power it's making will be up top of 2nd and 3rd gear...so maybe that's the difference?

b0son · 23-12-2014, 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kypez

(But I will add that I have done a quicker time than he did with the GTF at Wakefield which is very similar in setup to the XR8, albeit mine is a manual. Take from that what you want. But I've spent a lot more time learning how to drive the GTF)

And he only did 3 flying laps in each. At the very least, it says the SSV is easier to get the most from, a pretty reasonable reflection of its chassis balance... yes/no?

**kypez** · 23-12-2014, 10:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by b0son

And he only did 3 flying laps in each. At the very least, it says the SSV is easier to get the most from, a pretty reasonable reflection of its chassis balance... yes/no?

Yes.

To him, he was able to adapt to the Chassis of the SSV over the XR8 easily. Whether that would be the same with another driver, I cannot say. Does it mean its easier to drive the SSV, maybe. Every driver has their own preferences.

Bit like Morris versus Chaz. One has a lot more experience but in the same car put out very different times at Bathurst...

Just for the record, I'm not trying to rubbish anyone or either car... Just keeping the discussion fair and not jump on a result like its be all and end all of everything.

skoobysGT · 23-12-2014, 11:03 PM

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the 0 to 100 time of the XR8!

I thought R Spec's were getting under 5's in the 0 to 100 dash... especially in an auto?

**kypez** · 23-12-2014, 11:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skoobysGT

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the 0 to 100 time of the XR8!

I thought R Spec's were getting under 5's in the 0 to 100 dash... especially in an auto?

You're not allowed to question the driver or the track! Havent you read his 30 year driving history. So what if he pulled the slowest time ever recorded for a XR8 and for a SSV! /Sarcasm

rancidpunx · 23-12-2014, 11:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skoobysGT

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the 0 to 100 time of the XR8!

I thought R Spec's were getting under 5's in the 0 to 100 dash... especially in an auto?

4.3s is the quickest I have done.