All things Solar (merged threads)

[FoxtrotGolfXray 5.0]

Hey all, thought I'd post an update on my solar install. Thursday was the two month anniversary of our meter being re-programmed for time of use. As per my previous post, I have set up a simple excel spreadsheet that I add my daily meter data to, calculating the amount I owe the electricity supplier.

As of Thursday, the electricity supplier owes me just over $3.

I was thinking about this a bit further, and working where I do I realise that the last two months are what we would consider to be a shoulder period (hence we have had a 40-day planned outage on one of our units and a minor 7-day outage on another). In the peak of winter you could reasonably expect people to be inside for longer each day and using heating. In the peak of summer, you can expect people to be using the airconditioner more in an effort to keep cool. In between these two usage would be lower but production from the solar array would be higher than winter.

Is this what people experience?

If so, then I expect that my small window of experience has been during a high-yield period and that this may not be reflective of where I will end up on an annual basis.

I can honestly say that, for the first time ever, I am actually looking forward to getting my next electricity bill!

Craig H

[poppa smurf]

as well as high usage during winter you will also find low yield (as in little usable sunshine) so winter is a lose, lose part of the year.

summer is a high usage time as well but the available solar light is greater so the yield would be expected to be greater as well.

"swings and roundabout's"......but overall solar is still very much a worthwhile investment.

good outcome on your install and I hope it continues for you.

because we have a relatively high FIT we cannot expand our system without a loss so we are starting to look into "hybrid systems" in an effort to further reduce our accounts as the multi nationals increase their charges.

[FoxtrotGolfXray 5.0]

Originally Posted by poppa smurf

as well as high usage during winter you will also find low yield (as in little usable sunshine) so winter is a lose, lose part of the year.

summer is a high usage time as well but the available solar light is greater so the yield would be expected to be greater as well.

"swings and roundabout's"......but overall solar is still very much a worthwhile investment.

good outcome on your install and I hope it continues for you.

because we have a relatively high FIT we cannot expand our system without a loss so we are starting to look into "hybrid systems" in an effort to further reduce our accounts as the multi nationals increase their charges.

Thanks, Poppa. You are spot on with the winter yield being lower, but winter down this way can actually be rather sunny.....once the fog clears. Of course, even without the fog, there are less daylight hours so total possible yield is less.

I'm actually very happy with the install so far. The most I have seen out of the system in any one day is around the 33kWh mark, with the majority being around the high 20s, which seems pretty good to me.

Is this what I should be expecting out of a 4.5kW setup?

Craig H

[devilcv8]

My 3kw system which generates 26-28kw per day actually hit 30 last week.
I have 6 panels north and 6 west in Goulburn with no shading.

Very pleased with it.

[Trevor 57]

Originally Posted by ute83

Are you on a single rate contract or time of use with peak and off peak?

single rate (post solar panel install)

[fnm17]

Originally Posted by devilcv8

My 3kw system which generates 26-28kw per day actually hit 30 last week.
I have 6 panels north and 6 west in Goulburn with no shading.

Very pleased with it.

Damm that's awesome generation for 3kW unit, my 5kW unit is only generating 28~30kw per day for the last month or so. Coming close to 31kW/day now. And I have 20 odd panels.

[poppa smurf]

Originally Posted by psychobimbo

Thanks, Poppa. You are spot on with the winter yield being lower, but winter down this way can actually be rather sunny.....once the fog clears. Of course, even without the fog, there are less daylight hours so total possible yield is less.

I'm actually very happy with the install so far. The most I have seen out of the system in any one day is around the 33kWh mark, with the majority being around the high 20s, which seems pretty good to me.

Is this what I should be expecting out of a 4.5kW setup?

Craig H

even with a bright winters day, unless you have sun chasing panels, the sun will be lower in the sky and will strike the panels at a less than "optimal" angle as well as less actual daylight hours.

of course this depends on a lot of factors, like roof pitch, bracket angles and whether a "stand" was used.

I would be rather happy with that output.

[comagutsa]

Originally Posted by devilcv8

My 3kw system which generates 26-28kw per day actually hit 30 last week.
I have 6 panels north and 6 west in Goulburn with no shading.

Very pleased with it.

dam my 3kw one is only doing low 20's on a good day in summer

[supershifty]

Originally Posted by comagutsa

dam my 3kw one is only doing low 20's on a good day in summer

You're in Perth, I'm in Brisbane.

Highest mine's generated is 14kW with a 2kW system, so is on par with yours - I'm happy!

Cheers!

[AlanD]

Originally Posted by xisled

I would not be giving that advice to someone in Victoria. In Victoria you sign a form saying that you agree to have the solar system off until the meter is configured. The form is signed as a part of every solar install in Victoria. The form depends which distributor you are in.

Technically you can get in trouble for having the solar system on without having the meter installed.

I have seen people have massive bills because the solar system is turned on and they had not had the solar meter installed, Also seen that the disturber was not happy that the system was on and they threatened to discount the power of the home, until they turned the solar system off.

https://www.redenergy.com.au/docs/SO...ECTIONFORM.pdf

http://www.ausnetservices.com.au/***...ion%20Form.pdf

Hi xisled,

The problem that arises is a function of the metering system that exists at the location where the solar system gets installed.

Both the form links you have provided say the same thing so far as the "owner" of the generating system is concerned and that is the system should not be switched on until the matter of metering is resolved.

Two possibilities exist:

1. There is a electronic type of meter monitoring usage and in this case if energy is fed back through it, there can be problematical results which depend on the programming that the meter is using. One possible result is that a much higher than actual energy consumption gets recorded, as you have suggested.

2. The location is equipped with the older mechanical "rotating disc" type of meter. These will quite happily run backwards if current is flowing back to the mains system, and as they do the "owner" gets an effective feed in tariff equal to whatever cost per kWh applies to the property. Obviously the retailer and distributor don't like this as it has a significant effect on the bill to the advantage of the owner and also the retailer does not know how many "units" of energy have been fed back to the grid. As many retailers charge agreeable customers a premium for "green" energy they miss out on this premium.

The important word is "should" rather than "must". However a retailer and/or distributor is under no obligation to supply anyone with power and can remove the consumer's mains fuse to isolate the property if they wish, provided they can access it without damaging the property.

We have had two systems installed. At our previous home, which had disc type meters, the installer left the system connected, but since the FIT was twice the cost per unit, we had an incentive to get the "smart" meter. At our current home there was a "smart" meter installed as part of the initial connection. When the solar was connected and proved I was vigilant in checking what happened to the readings on the meter and, so far as I could tell, there were no adverse effects in the short period connection occurred to test the system. In due course AusNet attended and reprogrammed to meter to record energy flow in each direction as separate cumulative values.

I'll make a comment about fire breaking out. PappaSmurf is correct that if you follow the approved shut down process there will be no 240 V a.c. from an inverter - but if the panels are illuminated they will still generate a dc level, although with the open circuit panel string isolators there will be no current flow. In our case we have two strings of nine panels and each of these will generate up to approximately 360 Volts d.c. if illuminated. That will give you a very nasty electric shock if you manage to get hold of each end of the string wiring at the same time.

Cheers

[39ClevoUte]

Originally Posted by poppa smurf

unfortunately this is the case, as soon as you install solar you pay more, those of us that went in early got the higher feed in tariff and are now reaping the rewards, however we paid a hell of a lot more for our systems so our outlays were far more.

solar is now far cheaper but the rewards are less.

govco has made it's stance clear, they don't want you producing power, plain and simple, the power you produce is sold off at a higher rate and the suppliers reap the benefit.

the thing you will see is a significant reduction in your bill as solar will take care of almost all of your day time running costs.

I'm trying to understand this to decide wether it go solar or not....

In the example above isn't it that, at the old rate with no solar, the bill would have been 2200 x 31 = $682 and that with solar with the feed extracted it's $818.
To me this means $818-$682 = $136 more paid with solar, not the same $....
However I guess this dosen't show power used from panels. But the original "complaint" was it cost the same..it cost $136 more on the figures supplied...??
Also I'm interested in how you know how much you have used/really saved?

[AlanD]

Originally Posted by 37Clevo

I'm trying to understand this to decide wether it go solar or not....

In the example above isn't it that, at the old rate with no solar, the bill would have been 2200 x 31 = $682 and that with solar with the feed extracted it's $818.
To me this means $818-$682 = $136 more paid with solar, not the same $....
However I guess this dosen't show power used from panels. But the original "complaint" was it cost the same..it cost $136 more on the figures supplied...??
Also I'm interested in how you know how much you have used/really saved?

Hi 37Clevo,

This business is a minefield and unless you have all of the data it is difficult to identify whether of not someone has gotten a "benefit" from going solar.

Now the following is relevant to Victoria, where I live.

The most usual installation runs between 1.5 kwatt capacity and up to 5 kwatt capacity on a single phase system. (In my distribution area (AusNet) there is an upper limit, or there was, I haven't checked, of 4.6 kWatt. If you want more than that you need to get approval by applying, with a fee, which is not refunded if the answer is "no")

The retailer will charge you a daily "supply" charge. This is an amount per day and gets charged whether or not you draw power from the grid, provided you have a connection. Different retailers have differing charges and, so far as I know, only one retailer will discount this charge, the others charge the amount in your contract.

If you have a solar system, it is usual to go onto a "time of day" tariff which is one rate between 7:00 am and 11:00 pm weekdays (higher) and all other times at a lower rate. The actual rate is a function of the retailer and many of them "offer" ridiculous discounts to get your business, but when compared the discounted rate tends to be pretty much the same across retailers, but the discount only applies if you pay on time. Pay a day late and you get the very high charge rate to deal with.

In our case we have a 4.5 kW system and use roughly 14 kWhr per day. On average, 5 kWhr of that is supplied from the solar system. So the saving to us here is about $1.60 per day or $144 per quarter. This is money we would have to pay if not for the solar system. Additionally we feed back to the grid about 8 kWhr per day on average that we are paid 8c per kWhr for so we can add $0.64 per day for that. The total is $2.24 per day or $200 per quarter ie about $800 per year. Since the system cost a little less than $8000.00 the pay back period is roughly 10 years and, assuming no failures, we will notionally be making money after that time. We actually will not see any of it since it will reduce our bills from the electricity retailer.

For us it will be a shorter payback period because the supplier of our system, when it was installed, was subsidizing the FIT up to 25c per kWhr for the first three years and this looks like being worth about $2000, giving a pay back period of 7.5 years.

Also, we can be quite sure that electricity charges will increase and so the energy that you generate yourself will have a greater value further reducing the pay back period, possibly by as much as one to two years. depending on how far usage charges increase.

To determine if you would benefit would require a lot of data about your situation, so if you want more information PM me with a view to exchanging e-mail addresses so we don't clog up the forum with a singular, perhaps non typical example.

BTW Auslandau's information has a lot of missing data that makes it difficult to determine if there is a better deal available in that case.

Cheers

[39ClevoUte]

Great explanation thanks!!!

[EgoFG]

I would probably add a little to AlanD's comment.

Solar sale is based on instantaneous comparison between usage and production.


The 8c for sale back to the grid is based on the period in the day where you are making more electricity than you use.
If you are able to more some of your electricity consumption from the night to the day you can shorten your payback.
I have done this with pool pump timing, washing and dishwashers on delayed start, I have even turned on the A/C early to bring the house temp down while I am exporting.

One other interesting thing is that many items these days can be "Inverters" (including A/C and Mirowave ovens) these compliment solar quite well, compared to their non-interter equivalents.

Solar eletricity production tends to have a bell-like curve each day, a non-inverter airconditioner will perhaps look more like a sine wave, on maybe a 20 minute interval.
Each of the peaks of the a/cond consumption may exceed you production in that instant, and the lows will be below you production.
An inverter A/Cond is a lot flatter, and less likely to peak above your production, and then drop to almost nothing.

So my two tips to maximise your savings
1) schedule you electricity consumption to you peak production period
2) use "Inverter" appliances

[my_gxl]

I've been noticing grid voltage by is 263 volts, and just before sunset-so the inverter is still 'on', its 250V.

Now during the day lately my inverter has been cutting out. Its only designed to have grid voltage of 268V. The mongrel power companies have allowed the grid to rise so it can take less power from solar.
I also know that having everyone pumping in power by day won't help, but I know they can adjust it. Bastards.

I have 2.6kw worth of panels, and have seen 16kw max in a day.

[supershifty]

Originally Posted by my_gxl

I've been noticing grid voltage by is 263 volts, and just before sunset-so the inverter is still 'on', its 250V.

Now during the day lately my inverter has been cutting out. Its only designed to have grid voltage of 268V. The mongrel power companies have allowed the grid to rise so it can take less power from solar.
I also know that having everyone pumping in power by day won't help, but I know they can adjust it. Bastards.

I have 2.6kw worth of panels, and have seen 16kw max in a day.

That doesn't sound quite right. You should be pulling around 18kW/day in good weather. I've pulled 8kW as of 2:30pm today @ 244.6v - you should've pulled around 10.5kW. We're both in Brisbane. My panels face NNW with no shading.

Cheers!

Edit: Are all of your panels connected and working? Might pay to get that checked out while it's still under warranty.

[Mr Hardware]

Originally Posted by my_gxl

I've been noticing grid voltage by is 263 volts, and just before sunset-so the inverter is still 'on', its 250V.

Now during the day lately my inverter has been cutting out. Its only designed to have grid voltage of 268V. The mongrel power companies have allowed the grid to rise so it can take less power from solar.
I also know that having everyone pumping in power by day won't help, but I know they can adjust it. Bastards.

I have 2.6kw worth of panels, and have seen 16kw max in a day.

That's not quite right. It's all the solar being fed in that's driving the line voltage up. They put a line meter clipped onto the wires in my street the other week because the voltage was high - and it only reaches 253v. If you're seeing 268v+ - then i'd be getting on the phone red hot to energex.

Also, 16kwh out of 2.6kw isn't too far off the mark - how true north is your house? Most of brisbane north sits on a slight NNE tilt. Dunno why.

[my_gxl]

Best iv'e seen on instant output is 2.4kw. This is the best the ever did from new. They are working.

I've cleaned them myself too.

They are on the east facing roof, as the front of the house points north, but they peak runs north to south.

They seem to be running at 80% capacity. I want to put up another 1 kw worth of panels to compensate for the wrong direction.

Line voltage is 263v, but that's still high, as my panels are only outing out 243v


update-just called energex, they are on the way out now.
While I was calling them, the inverter cut out again, then a second time.

[Sam_Boss260]

Wow, these are some big numbers you guys are pulling.

5kw system, North facing and on a sunny day over the last few months I'm getting between 24 at 28 kw per day.

[my_gxl]

Energex came out. The inverter is reading 4 volts higher than grid voltage. They can be 250V plus 6%. So really its the inverter self protecting too early, and Volts higher than what most think is acceptable.

[Captain Stubing]

Originally Posted by Sam_Boss260

Wow, these are some big numbers you guys are pulling.

5kw system, North facing and on a sunny day over the last few months I'm getting between 24 at 28 kw per day.

I've got 10 panels facing north, 6 facing west, with a just over 3 kw system.

At the moment I'm getting around 28-29kw per day. I usually get no more than 30kw per day during the summer months.

I would have thought a 5kw system would give more! I know I've spoken with people with 5kw systems who seem to collect more power which seemed in proportion with my systems performance.

[supershifty]

^^^ That's bloody awesome Swanny out of a 3kW system!

I'm at Bracken Ridge with a 2kW system with 12x190w panels facing NNW, best I get on a good day is 14kW.

Small system, but I always get credits, never paid a power bill since installation. Yay!

Cheers!

[Franco Cozzo]

Not related to solar but with the state government change here in Victoria, a community wind farm is now on the cards for my region, pretty cool idea!

[jandj]

My wife and I have had a very small solar system ( I think 1.5 kw ). Before we put system in power bills $400-450 a quarter, now were paying $160-200 a quarter. This system has been in use now for about 4yrs, we live in North Lakes and panels face north.

[LG17]

One thing that needs to be stressed here is that the vast majority of members spruiking about power bills in credit or extremely small power bills are those who have had their solar on for some time and are the recipients of high FITS.

For mine, any casual reading member would get the wrong idea about all the benefits of going solar if they do it now.

[my_gxl]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

Not related to solar but with the state government change here in Victoria, a community wind farm is now on the cards for my region, pretty cool idea!

Huge bean eating area? lol

[xisled]

Originally Posted by LG17

One thing that needs to be stressed here is that the vast majority of members spruiking about power bills in credit or extremely small power bills are those who have had their solar on for some time and are the recipients of high FITS.

For mine, any casual reading member would get the wrong idea about all the benefits of going solar if they do it now.

If you use your power during daylight hours and minimise your usage at night you can reduce your bill down to a very low figure and that is before a buy back is applied.

The way to gain from solar is to use your electricity smarter. I have seen many people who have little to no bills, that have solar systems on the current 8 cent buy back.

I have also seen massive bills for people who had the PFIT buy back (66 cents) in Victoria because they don't use their electricity during the daylight hours.

[jandj]

Originally Posted by xisled

If you use your power during daylight hours and minimise your usage at night you can reduce your bill down to a very low figure and that is before a buy back is applied.

The way to gain from solar is to use your electricity smarter. I have seen many people who have little to no bills, that have solar systems on the current 8 cent buy back.

I have also seen massive bills for people who had the PFIT buy back (66 cents) in Victoria because they don't use their electricity during the daylight hours.

Exactly my thoughts xisled, yes the feed in tarriffs make a difference. But you have to be smart how you use your power. LG17 it was never to come across as spruking, mate when you have a family whatever savings you can make small or big helps in the long run.
Without getting political I blame goverment for cost of living, and up here in qld the government is rolling out new meters. So now there's no off peak periods, your electrical supply will know when your home and can charge. The new meter updates every 30 mins.

[devilcv8]

Originally Posted by xisled

I have also seen massive bills for people who had the PFIT buy back (66 cents) in Victoria because they don't use their electricity during the daylight hours.

Aren't the high FIT plans gross where all generated electricity is fed back to the grid and you get paid the high FIT and then buy back all your usage at whatever your price happens to be? In this scenario, it makes no difference how much of your usage is during the day as you still pay for everything you use.


Those on NET metering however need to use as much of their generated power as possible during the day.

In my case I've gone from an average 30kwh per 24 hours in usage to 14, although the last bill was 20 per 24 hours. I'm generating 28-30 per day from my 3kw system over the summer months and based on my bill I have halved my billed usage. Still have more to do, but the SPA does hurt a fair bit which is why I only run it during the day, unless in it at night. My 6c FIT only pays me $39.90 on the latest bill. That was for 655 kwh excess generated.
NSW is messed up. Last 12 months I had 21% discount with origin and when it expired they offered SFA so I left. They then offered 18% discount for pay on time which saves me $77 on this bill. I pay 28.35c and 10.15 for peak and off peak with service charges of $90.06 and $8.24 for 91 days. Lucky me gets to do this dance in 12 months again to try for a discount.

[LG17]

Originally Posted by jandj

Exactly my thoughts xisled, yes the feed in tarriffs make a difference. But you have to be smart how you use your power. LG17 it was never to come across as spruking, mate when you have a family whatever savings you can make small or big helps in the long run.
Without getting political I blame goverment for cost of living, and up here in qld the government is rolling out new meters. So now there's no off peak periods, your electrical supply will know when your home and can charge. The new meter updates every 30 mins.

Spruiking is probably the wrong word. My intention was just to point out the differences - certainly not trying to have a go at anyone.