All things Solar (merged threads)

[BENT_8]

Poppa, please don't think that my post was in any way meant to be negative to the industry.
I have in fact followed the thread from day one.
I haven't said much as I have no intention of installing a system.

All im saying is that the tone of the thread has changed recently and it would appear that all the stars must line up for solar installation to be a worth while exercise.

I have no doubt that with a properly designed and installed system there would be benefits. I question the viability of the hundreds of thousands of generic installations that were bought off a brochure, by a genuine person who did so in good faith, thinking they were going to be living power bill free for ever.

[zilo]

With the lousy Victorian FIT it is no longer viable to buy a convection solar hot water solar system.

It's now financially better to buy more panels/inverters and just run a conventional electric element hot water system switched to peak time heating....yes peak time heating .

The numbers just don't add up anymore......as the FIT is less than the off peak power rate!

[poppa smurf]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

Poppa, please don't think that my post was in any way meant to be negative to the industry.
I have in fact followed the thread from day one.
I haven't said much as I have no intention of installing a system.

All im saying is that the tone of the thread has changed recently and it would appear that all the stars must line up for solar installation to be a worth while exercise.

I have no doubt that with a properly designed and installed system there would be benefits. I question the viability of the hundreds of thousands of generic installations that were bought off a brochure, by a genuine person who did so in good faith, thinking they were going to be living power bill free for ever.

my post was not meant to come across as a mean one either but I guess it may have been a bit "heavy", I am a little overprotective at times and will fire off, I have been accused of being a "greenie" in the past.......but xmas and all that will see every one a bit more "louder",......

I have backed off from posting as much as I possibly can simply because I am getting sick of seeing that bloody smurf splattered all over every page....

I've tried to get others involved a bit more and let the thread "mature" and find it's footing with information coming from varied sources, not just mine.....in a lot of ways it has, a lot of varied knowledge in here with freedom of inquisition from almost anyone, once again I thank all contributors for this info.

if there is one thing I have repeated ad nauseam it is to do YOUR figures and not rely on Peter in No 29 who has never paid a bill and gets $10,000 back every year in credit.

I am not here to guild the lily, simply to supply information to enable us "commoners" to make an informed decision.

that way when the salesman stands with a lot of bulldust flying then you have the knowledge to say "hang on, that is simply not correct".

I wish to see folks go into a purchase, such as this, with informed knowledge to make a wise decision, not go in, knowing nothing, and come out with a system that is of no use to them and a great financial loss.

these are still a large expenditure and, if done right, will pay off well into the future, done wrong and you will do your dough.

the tone of the thread will wax and wain, we have many and varied opinions within these walls, some good, some negative but all CONSTRUCTIVE opinions are welcome if they are of benefit to those about to set sail in the solar sea.

[ute83]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

Poppa, please don't think that my post was in any way meant to be negative to the industry.
I have in fact followed the thread from day one.
I haven't said much as I have no intention of installing a system.

All im saying is that the tone of the thread has changed recently and it would appear that all the stars must line up for solar installation to be a worth while exercise.

I have no doubt that with a properly designed and installed system there would be benefits. I question the viability of the hundreds of thousands of generic installations that were bought off a brochure, by a genuine person who did so in good faith, thinking they were going to be living power bill free for ever.

I was onto solar early so receive the PFIT. I have not had a bill since plus have had some cash come my way. But in saying that I payed a shed load more for my system. As long as the PFIT exists I will be doing fine. In a couple more years I will be in front. The retailer's bills that I use are easy to understand and as long as they are actual reads are spot on because I check them regularly. I agree with you that for new solar installs it doesn't look that rosy.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by ute83

I was onto solar early so receive the PFIT. I have not had a bill since plus have had some cash come my way. But in saying that I payed a shed load more for my system. As long as the PFIT exists I will be doing fine. In a couple more years I will be in front. The retailer's bills that I use are easy to understand and as long as they are actual reads are spot on because I check them regularly. I agree with you that for new solar installs it doesn't look that rosy.

Thanks for sharing your experiences.

When you say 'in front' you mean at which point the money saved per year in bills will have repaid the initial outlay.
So for example, lets say you have a yearly outlay of say $1300 in power bills prior to solar, the solar cost $10k so it will take around 8 years until you break even.

Without giving away too much personal information, how long will your system have been operating when you break even at the current rates?

[jpblue1000]

We have had our solar (2.08 Kw's) for 12 months now. We have averaged a $285 saving each quarter averaged over the year. We have not paid an electricity bill since installation. The Electricity retailer/supplier whatever owed us us money for half a summer season and for half spring and Autumn we were ahead, but we came back to even during winter. This will be better 2015 as we now have a much more efficient heating system and the system will generate for the entire summer quarter. We export twice or more than we use.
we bought a 'tier 1' system and biggest we could fit and paid a premium over the cheapest system but if the efficiency continues and our frugal use of electricity remains I think we will be at break even after four and a half years, bit over 3 years from now.
We are on the smallest offered FIT of 8 cents KwH as we signed up just at the end of the scheme last year after buying the house

JP

[stevejg33]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

Thanks for sharing your experiences.

When you say 'in front' you mean at which point the money saved per year in bills will have repaid the initial outlay.
So for example, lets say you have a yearly outlay of say $1300 in power bills prior to solar, the solar cost $10k so it will take around 8 years until you break even.

Without giving away too much personal information, how long will your system have been operating when you break even at the current rates?

We have had our solar for almost 3 & a half years, paid $22k for a 6kw system. Our power bills were around $4000 per year, (air cond, aquariums, etc.) & got the 54 cent FIT, now down to 52, (44 cents gov, 8 cents power provider)
After installation our first bill was around $300, (part way thru billing period), after that no bills, just credits, building up thru summer & eating into them thru winter. Couple of k in credit now, system should be paid for & in front in 2 years time.
Even though we paid a lot more, we got the higher FIT, which made it worthwhile, you can see the light at the end of the tunnel, glad we did it when we did, I think, in SA, the higher FIT for us is guaranteed till around 2026.
If we did it now, we could probably buy a 12-16kw system for the same price as our 6, the big cruncher is the FIT nowadays, would rather be collecting 52 cents than 8.

[danzvtil]

Originally Posted by buggerlugs

Slightly off topic, but I have a customer who owns and runs a tourist park up here. He was telling me 6 years ago his quarterly bill was around $7000.00. He hasn't changed anything in 6 years but his quarterly bill is now $30,000.00...........and he knows he has missed the boat on solar.......

I do maintenance for a child care centre whose quarterly bill was $5k and rising. The owner spent mega bucks on a huge system to offset her usage which is all during the day when the sun shines. This system has saved her 2K qtr. Wont take long to pay for itself.

[buggerlugs]

I reckon we are close to being even. Average bill was $700 to $750 a quarter. That's 5 years ago before power prices went thru the roof. So 3 grand a year x 5 years........happy days. Certainly don't miss "The dreaded power bill"...............

[zilo]

I bought two pallets of panels and a few inverters to make a 15kw system with no rebates whatsoever .

I bought them wholesale through our family business so got the 10% GST back in a month.

Wholesale the panels (190w mono crystalline Suntech) were $220 each...(solar companies were charging a lot more)

Kevin Rudd then gave us a 50% tax break in 2010 so then the price was halved again.

Depreciation was 20% per annum through the tax system....on the original purchase price.

This was before I even put a single panel on the roof.

It took 2 years to pay fully for a 15kw system with three SMA inverters.

Without installing a single panel.

The rebate incentives were a farce and created inflated markets.

Best thing that ever happened was removal of rebates.

[nuthin' fancy]

Originally Posted by zilo

I bought two pallets of panels and a few inverters to make a 15kw system with no rebates whatsoever .

I bought them wholesale through our family business so got the 10% GST back in a month.

Wholesale the panels (190w mono crystalline Suntech) were $220 each...(solar companies were charging a lot more)

Kevin Rudd then gave us a 50% tax break in 2010 so then the price was halved again.

Depreciation was 20% per annum through the tax system....on the original purchase price.

This was before I even put a single panel on the roof.

It took 2 years to pay fully for a 15kw system with three SMA inverters.

Without installing a single panel.

The rebate incentives were a farce and created inflated markets.

Best thing that ever happened was removal of rebates.

The rebates did their job, though. They promoted demand and the price of the panels went down.

The issue now is the technology is developing so rapidly today's purchase soon becomes yesterday's model.

I actually see the original rebate program as one that worked.

[zilo]

Originally Posted by nuthin' fancy

The rebates did their job, though. They promoted demand and the price of the panels went down.

The issue now is the technology is developing so rapidly today's purchase soon becomes yesterday's model.

I actually see the original rebate program as one that worked.

The feed in tarriff was actually the driving force for most people not the rebates.

The govt sure have stuffed it up in that department now.

A lot of people made an obscene amount of money in the solar program.

Two thousand bucks labour to put a dozen panels on a roof?

Most people want something for nothing and it was/is still all about how long it takes to fully pay a system off...cause after that it is all about profit.

[supershifty]

My 2Kw system is 3 years old next April. I'm on the high FIT 52c including 6c state govt rebate. I paid about $3700 for it. So 3 years and it's paid for itself.

I get about $1200 per year FIT and haven't paid a power bill since installation. My power bills were roughly $110 per quarter. I lived alone most of that time and have town gas hot water and stove.

Once it's paid for itself the FIT will cover my gas and water bills with a little bit towards my rates. That was my plan all along when choosing my solar system - love it when a long term plan works out.

Cheers!

[ute83]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

Thanks for sharing your experiences.

When you say 'in front' you mean at which point the money saved per year in bills will have repaid the initial outlay.
So for example, lets say you have a yearly outlay of say $1300 in power bills prior to solar, the solar cost $10k so it will take around 8 years until you break even.

Without giving away too much personal information, how long will your system have been operating when you break even at the current rates?

About five years. We sell up to $2500 a year. This spring/summer has been a chunk better than last year.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by poppa smurf

if you use your power during the day then it is possibly worthwhile......but it won't run everything.

even a one eyed solar supporter like me has got to start thinking that it is really no longer feasible to go solar without a decent FIT.

I just got my latest account (after yet another argument with Lumo, they are splitting the account so I get my power usage data one month and then another month I would receive my solar rebate, made it impossible to understand the account)

I am still well in credit but for how long is anyones guess, SA power networks are going to increase their cost for no reason and the little chinaman is going to raise his charges as well.

I'm just looking at our power bill now, we average 28kWh/day across the year (with no A/C), its a bit higher in the winter months with the fan on the fire place going 24/7.

I'm looking at Red Solar's system prices:

http://redsolar.com.au/residential_specials/

What sort of power would you generate with a 5KW system down in Melbourne?

The bills are coming in at around $600 each time and we don't even have A/C or electric heating (which we are keen on a few split systems for A/C). We've also got lots of Phillips LED downlights now installed (used to be just regular 50W halogens).

Mind you we also have an electric oven and electric hot water system, the only thing we have running on gas is the stove and its on 45KG LPG cylinders.

[poppa smurf]

http://www.solarchoice.net.au/blog/h...omment-page-1/

should explain a little......but there is nothing like information straight from the horses mouth....take a drive around your area until you see a setup that resembles yours and go Knock on the door.

most folks are more than happy to have a yak about their system......

Can't beat recommendations of installers, productivity, price, output and company comparisons from those that have "been there, done that".

just did a bit of quick research and made a phone call to a friend in Melbourne running that system......

with a 5 Kilowatt system in Melbourne you SHOULD roughly halve that account.

the system you are looking at LOOK'S to be as good as any.

[SPArKy_Dave]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

I'm just looking at our power bill now, we average 28kWh/day across the year

Mind you we also have an electric oven and electric hot water system, the only thing we have running on gas is the stove and its on 45KG LPG cylinders.

At least half that usage, will be the Offpeak Hot water.

I'd recommend installing a solar system which meets your day time usage only, (10-14kw/h) unless you can afford to install a Hybrid Solar System - (ie - a system with battery storage)

We've been installing quite a few Hybrid systems lately, but mostly around rural Victoria - high country around Seymour, down Gippsland way, and around the Warnambool area - on farms, dairys, and for people who work from home - basically those who can claim the cost on tax.

On top of a solar PV system, I would look at altering the Electric Hot water, to either an electric boosted Solar HWS, and/or adding a Siddons Solar Stream or similar heat pump, to the existing storage HWS tank.

[ute83]

Originally Posted by SPArKy_Dave

At least half that usage, will be the Offpeak Hot water.

I'd recommend installing a solar system which meets your day time usage only, (10-14kw/h) unless you can afford to install a Hybrid Solar System - (ie - a system with battery storage)

We've been installing quite a few Hybrid systems lately, but mostly around rural Victoria - high country around Seymour, down Gippsland way, and around the Warnambool area - on farms, dairys, and for people who work from home - basically those who can claim the cost on tax.

On top of a solar PV system, I would look at altering the Electric Hot water, to either an electric boosted Solar HWS, and/or adding a Siddons Solar Stream or similar heat pump, to the existing storage HWS tank.

Why wouldn't you use the power you make with the 5KW/H system to heat your hot water during the day instead of through the grid at night?

[Cashie]

Originally Posted by ute83

Why wouldn't you use the power you make with the 5KW/H system to heat your hot water during the day instead of through the grid at night?

I've got electric boosted solar hot water (and a 4kw PV system), I've debated doing it both ways (boosting day or night), I've had my booster on generally at night because I don't want it boosting when the solar could/should be heating the water and hopefully the booster won't kick in at all.. Bit of a different situation to Big Damo but it still makes you think of how best to utilise your solar power (I've got no FIT)...
Been able to have the booster off for the last 2 months here in Perth so there is no debate at the moment.

[ford man xf]

So after 97 pages and not feeling up to reading so much information, what's the verdict? Is it worth going Solar?

[Cashie]

Originally Posted by ford man xf

So after 97 pages and not feeling up to reading so much information, what's the verdict? Is it worth going Solar?

Without a FIT, if you can use all the power you generate it can be.. will take longer to recoup the purchase price though.

[ford man xf]

Originally Posted by Cashie

Without a FIT, if you can use all the power you generate it can be.. will take longer to recoup the purchase price though.

Thanks. I am going to restore the roof first, new mortar and paint, then I can work out what kind of system, I just know it's not going to be cheap

[ebxr8240]

5 to 7 k should get you 4 to 5 kW system. A few years ago these systems where much more expensive.. At least 4 kW and solar hot water would be my choice .. With elect booster off at night..

[davenl5l]

jeez spring was good just got my new bill (hee hee snigger snigger) $207.99 credit 4kw system north facing 1508kwh

[ford man xf]

Is solar one of those technologies that will get cheaper in a few years time? I know solar has been around for ages, but is it possible for the cost to come down? Like with DVD players, mobile phones etc. I can remember them being quite pricey.

[EgoFG]

Originally Posted by Cashie

Without a FIT, if you can use all the power you generate it can be.. will take longer to recoup the purchase price though.

Sorry to disagree, but only when the Gross FIT was dropped for NET FIT of 8c was it cost justifiable for me.

The reduced installer costs meant quicker payback.

There was significant price gouging when there was a 40-60c Gross FIT available.

Again: More easily cost justifiable in NSW since the 60c FIT was dropped.

I have the figures to demonstrate a less than 4 year payback, my friends on 60c were looking at a 6-7 year payback.

[Cashie]

Originally Posted by EgoFG

Sorry to disagree, but only when the Gross FIT was dropped for NET FIT of 8c was it cost justifiable for me.

The reduced installer costs meant quicker payback.

There was significant price gouging when there was a 40-60c Gross FIT available.

Again: More easily cost justifiable in NSW since the 60c FIT was dropped.

I have the figures to demonstrate a less than 4 year payback, my friends on 60c were looking at a 6-7 year payback.

That's cool...
My experience indicates yes the purchase and installation price has decreased since the subsidised rebates have gone (I bought mine only 12 months ago after the rebates were gone), but the prices here have at best only halved, with an 8c verses a 50c FIT it will take ME longer to recoup my purchase.
Lots of variables come into play, as I said above, if you can use every kWh you produce you will be better off (ie you are earning the cost price of a kWh, about 25c in WA), but every kWh I punch back into the grid "earns" me 8c, it takes a **** load of exported units to recoup my install, also at 25c it would take me longer than your 4 year estimate to recoup my 4kW system, more likely around 8 years I estimate.

[AlanD]

Hi all,

I just finished doing the calculations for our installation for 2014.

We live in Western Gippsland in (SP)Ausnet's distribution area at about 38.5 degrees south.

We have a 4.5 kW system installed, we would have gone bigger, but the distributor requires that you get from them a permit to connect a larger system than 4.6 kW capacity and this demands a non refundable fee. There is no guarantee that you will get the permit - hence the 4.5 kw system.

The system cost $7600.00 installed. It is on a roof which faces roughly 22 degrees east of north. We could get some panels onto a roof face that faces 22 degrees north of west and we might do this at some point in the future to catch the late afternoon sunlight.

We are on a $0.08 feed in tariff.

In 2014 the system generated a total of 5842 kWh in the 365 days 01/01/2014 to 01/01/2015. This is an average of 16 kWh per day and our average usage totals about 14 kWh per day. Notionally we could go off grid with this system but the cost of storage is prohibitive and to take care of more than 4 days of dull weather would require a generator using fossil fuel. It might become more attractive in the future if battery technology improves and the costs come down.

Out of this generated energy 3830 kWh was fed back to the grid and earned us $306.43.

The balance was used in the home and equals 2012 kWh

Since the 3830 kWh was fed back during daylight hours and we are on a time of day tariff the 2012 notionally splits as 1437 kWh during peak power times and 575 kWh off peak.

Our peak tariff rate is $0.3598 per kWh inclusive of GST and the off peak rate is $0.2077 per kWh, also inclusive of GST.

So what we used from our system would have cost us a total of $636.46 in the twelve months made up of $517.03 in peak power and $119.43 in off peak power had we imported this energy.

Thus, the system has notionally provided us with a total of $942.89 in returns made up of savings and payback from fed in energy.

So in our specific case the payback period is, based on these figures, 8.06 years.

It will actually be shorter for three reasons:

1. The installer was offering a rebate top up for the first three years equal to $0.17 per kWh fed back. On the above figures this would be equal to $1950. So we could argue that these payments will reduce the system cost to $5550 and then the payback period would be 5.88 years, say six years.

2. The cost of energy imported from the grid will increase as time goes by and thus this will reduce the payback time since the energy you make and use yourself will be more "valuable"

3. When the rebate top up stops we will modify our use of power to minimize that which we import when its sunny. So our use of self generated power will increase during peak times mostly and thus the notional savings will be greater.

I'm tipping that the combination of these factors will reduce the payback period to somewhere between 4.5 years and 5 years.

Finally our electrical energy bills for the year were $511.84 and if we had had to pay for the energy we made ourselves this would have cost us $636.46 extra.

You might say that the system we have is better than halving our electrical energy costs.

Providing you have a roof that faces within 30 degrees either side of true north - west of north is possibly better than east of north - that is able to handle the area of panels for your system AND there is no shading onto the roof that you can not remove, then I would offer that going solar is economically attractive in the long term, providing you can handle the up front capital cost - and the rules do not change too much. A side benefit is that you are decreasing your personal carbon footprint - if you care about that.

Hope this helps people with their decision making.

And Happy new year to all.

Cheers

[poppa smurf]

well done Alan.......good write up and result.

[AlanD]

Hi all,

Quick question:

Has anyone who has a solar system augmented it with a wind powered generator?

Seems to me that the modern versions are capable of providing a significant boost in times of cloudy cover or at night time.

If you have then I'd appreciate any advice about how you went about it and what the results were.

Feel free to add to the knowledge base, even if you haven't made any alteration to your PV system.

Thanks and

Cheers