Rust on Spark Plugs

Hi All

I'm still trying to get to the bottom of my 'rough idle' problem as it has not got any better since running the car on BP Ultimate.

Today I took the airbox off the top of the motor, pulled the number one lead and shined a torch into the hole to check things out. I noticed a fair bit of rust and corrosion on the spark plug and around the cylinder hole (excuse my terminology, I'm not a mechanic lol). I was a bit shocked to see it all looking so messy! Anyway, I removed the spark plug to inspect it. I attached some photos, hope they work.

So I rang Ford and asked them why my spark plugs are all rusty and he said that it's normal and it won't affect performance in anyway. I'm a bit peeved because this is a 3 month old car with only 4000kms on it and I've never seen spark plugs look like that on any of my other old bomby cars when I've serviced them.

So do you guys think this is normal? Maybe it's the welch plugs leaking but I doubt it. Maybe I have a case of leaking wiper/washer jets like a lot of people report on the UK Fiesta forums. The Ford guy had the hide to ask if I drive in a lot of water lol. I've booked in in to get them to look at it, although I'm sure I'll just get the runaround again. What do you suggest I say to them? Is this really OK?

I just hope they can fix the rough idle, I'm so over it lol.

[Timmeh]

I can assure you it has nothing to do with the welsh plugs, they don't have anything to do with anything regarding the spark plugs at all....

The deterioration is just where some moisture has gotten past the rubber stop at the top of the spark plug lead cavity. It won't affect your performance whatsoever, give them a bit of a clean off and it's all good. Just make sure none of the residue drops down inside the cylinder and you have nothing to worry about. Not uncommon at all.

Sucks about the rough idle though, hope you get that fixed soon!

Tim

Thanks for that reply Timmeh. I feel better knowing it's a common problem on a modern engine. I've never owned a car this new before :

Any ideas how so much moisture could get in there so I could perhaps prevent it happening again?

By the way, I really like your Focus - I don't suppose you want to swap it for a black Fiesta? :

[Timmeh]

Originally Posted by Tripe

Any ideas how so much moisture could get in there so I could perhaps prevent it happening again?

The thing that will stop the same thing happening again will be to prevent moisture getting into the cavity. The rubber plugs moulded around your spark plug leads are what are going to stop moisture getting in there. If you think there is still any moisture in there, try this:

Drive your car until it's warmed up, then stop it in your driveway - doesn't have to be running (in fact, turn it off because it won't be running in a second). While the engine is hot, pull all the spark plug leads off, and the heat will evaporate any moisture in the cavitys (note, leaving the spark plugs in place). Then re-install the plug leads after five minutes, don't leave them off for too long, is leaving them off will let condensation build after it cools. Make sure the rubber plugs on the leads are firmly pressed in place and you shouldn't have any issues. It's likely the moisture got in there during transit or during pre-delivery?

Also, not sure how many times you've ripped spark plugs out before, but don't do them up too tight, just until firm. If you over-tighten them, you can cause damage to the thread in the head, and that can get expensive. Of course I am not saying you have, just something good to know.

Thanks for your comments on the Focus, she's been good to me!

Have fun in the forums! Tim

I was just reading the UK Fiesta Forums and found this topic.....

http://www.ukfiestanetwork.com/index...howtopic=67097

Has anyone else had a look down at the top of their Fiesta Motor by any chance? I am going to fit new Spark Plugs to my Fiesta, just to be on the safe side! They cost $19 from Ford.

The comments from the engineer sound a bit disturbing :

[Timmeh]

That's an interesting problem.

Just to summarise what is said in the thread, the nozzles that spray fluid onto the window have been found to leak rainwater (not fluid they are spraying) down onto the leads, which seeps into the spark plug cavity, causing them to corrode.

I'll inspect a Fiesta when I can next (tomorrow) and see if I can see any early evidence of this.

A suggestion that was made was to silicone seal around the nozzle from the underside.

Theoretically, if the leads rubber stops are firmly pressed in place, no water should get in, but I guess over time they have had the problem in the UK.

Good find, Tripe.

Tim

Thanks once again for your comments Tim. :

Thought I'd just add that the rubber 'fins' on the end of the leads that plug into the plastic engine cover actually have gaps in them about 5mm big on each round rubber 'fin' which I think would be enough to allow water to trickle down through to the motor. I still can't see how it's possible though? The leads run horizontal across the motor to the coil so I'm not sure how water would trickle down them?

The only thing I think could cause water to get in is if the hollowed out plastic section (where the leads plug into as seen in pic 1 of first thread, each hole has a raised lip about 1-2cm high) fills up with water completely and then runs down the gaps in the lead plugs (geez, try and understand that! :nutsycuck ) lol. But that would have to be a lot of water - about 100ml?

Anyway, I changed my spark plugs and cleaned the top of the motor (with great difficulty - not much room to wave a rag around with a screwdriver down there!) and the car is running smoother. So I'm happy for the time being, but I'll keep an eye on it, only takes 1 minute to take the airbox off and take a peak.

[Scareybear]

mmmm... interesting I might have to have a peek myself.
Thanks.

[Timmeh]

Yeah, see how you go. I hope you cleaned it with the spark plugs in place, so any debris didn't fall down inside the cylinders.

Keep us updated.

Tim

Yeah I left the old spark plugs in there whilst cleaning it because I was fairly aggressive with the screw driver and rags. I used rags that were moist with WD40 then used dry rags to wipe away any residue, then left it to dry, then I used more clean rags to give it another go over, just in case lol. I'm a bit of a fuss pot when it comes to things like this. :

It's now looking like new down there. Just hope it stays like that!

Hi All

Found out how the water gets in to the engine bay today by pouring water on the windscreen with the bonnet raised... see attached pic.

The leak is large and flows at various angles towards the engine, depending on the amount of water poured onto the windscreen. I'm sure that with the airbox attached it would be the cause of my rusty spark plug problem.

Re: The Engine Idle Problem:- I ran the motor in the dark, with the airbox removed and noticed the No. 1 HT lead is 'tracking' a blue spark of about 1cm in length onto a bolt on top of the plastic motor cover. This spark is intermittant and corresponds with the engine misfire I have been whining about. (After changing the spark plugs I thought I had fixed the misfire but a drive up to the Sunshine Coast on the weekend soon saw it reappear).

So the car is booked in for both of these problems to be fixed next week. The service manager at Ford was extremely nice and understood exactly what I was ranting on about, I was impressed!

[whippet_zetec]

wow great detective work there Tripe! hope it all works out for you there in getting it all fixed up.

[Timmeh]

Well done, and enjoy it when it's fixed

Tim

[RedStar71]

Tripe you are spot on! I checked my plugs and there it was RUST!!!!
Pulled them out and cleaned them up and now the car runs as smooth as glass! I rang Southside Ford's Service center and they had not heard of the problem but want me to give them a print out of the thread here and the one from the UK so they can keep the problem on file. The service consultant I spoke to said they had never heard about the leak problem and was glad that someone had diagnosed the problem, as it is always detective work to track a problem down. Well done Tripe!!!
My Fiesta goes back on Tuesday to get the problem fixed properly. But I am so glad to have tracked that misfire down!

Jason

Hi Jason

Make sure they test your HT leads out as well, because after I changed my spark plugs the car ran smoother for the brief drive I took it on, but then the misfire came back after a long drive. I'm sure it's all because of the 'tracking' on the number 1 tension lead! I can't wait to get mine fixed, it's really annoying to have a new car that idles like a bus, lol!

Also, that leak is a bit of a worry, I still can't believe how much water came out from that hole - I think it may be where the passenger side wiper is bolted on?? Very weird, just hope they don't smear a big blob of silicone on there as a stop gap fix (excuse the pun).

I purchased my spark plugs from Southside Ford! I annoyed them when I pushed the Ford V8 doorbell and it's really loud and goes on for ages lol. I also purchased an oil filter in anticipation of an oil change at 7500km because I think 15000km is running it a bit too long.

Good Luck with everything Jason! My car is booked in next week also because they have to wait for the HT lead to come from melbourne. Fingers crossed it will be running 'smooth as' after all this

[RedStar71]

Hi Tripe
Is yours going into Southside Ford? Would be interesting to have both cars fixed at the same dealership for the same problem!
Yeah I will keep an eye on the HT lead, we looked at it just now but couldn't see anything. I may ask them to look at that as well on Tuesday.
Anyone know if those Bosch Spark Plugs with four points work in a Fiesta? I saw something on the UK forum that said that they don't work on a 1.2 Fiesta but may be alright on a 1.4 (same as our 1.6 just smaller pistons).
Cheers

Jason

[RedStar71]

Ah spoke too soon the misfire is back but nowhere near as bad. The old plugs may need to be fully replaced before it gets totally fixed but they must be part of the problem. The lead arcing could also be part of it as well but I will get that fixed next Tuesday.
Cheers

Jason

[RedStar71]

Well Ford just replaced all my plugs and apparently two of them were arc'ing (or tracking) so my leads were not the problem supposedly but my plugs. The car is 98% smooth as glass. Still a small misfire and I do mean small, every so often. We'll see what happens over the next few months....

[Timmeh]

Ok, thanks for the update. I'm keeping a track of this thread, with the view of getting information together to make a Eurofordclub.com article on it.

Hope the car drives alot better for you now!

Tim

[RedStar71]

Tim
I certainly had the same rust problem as Tripe. But his Fiesta was tracking from the leads. Mine was the from the plugs apparently (maybe the leads as well and they didn't want to replace them). The service manager I spoke to said she had seen them with arc'ing problems before.... The car certainly runs a hell of a lot smoother but there is still a very small shudder. Compared to before it is amazingly smooth now. But as I said not 100%. I am thinking of getting a complete set of leads as well now. And seeing if that works.
Cheers

Jason

[GROOV3]

well checked my plugs today pulled ou the third one from the left looking into the engine bay and theres rustly looking water residue.

didnt pull out the pugs yet though.

also poured water onto my bonned and yeah the washer jets leak water into the engine and behind it onto the exhaust manifold heat protector which is looking a little rusty.


ive got the air filter off so thats why more is going down behind the engine, but if you had the air box on it would hit that and roll down into the gap around the oil fillter neck theninto the midle of the engine where the leads are.

looks liek i gotta get it booked into ford.

list to check

rear washer jet (leaking again needs to be replaced again)
engine ecu (EAC FAIL) need to get that looked into
now washer jets leaking into the engine bay posibly neading sealing and maybe new spark plugs if they are rusty as gotta check

It's good to hear you got some joy from Southside Ford Redstar71! I never had any luck with my dealer. I showed them the 'water leak' and was instantly laughed at and belittled!!! I was not impressed!

It's obvious to me now, that water IS meant to flow down through the passenger wiper blade arm... but geez, what a STUPID DESIGN! I think that the German's must have been drunk during Oktoberfest when they designed the Fiesta LOL. I just can't believe that most of the water collected by the roof/front windscreen is allowed to run directly into the engine bay onto the engine. :

Also, the Ford dealer said they checked all the spark plug HT leads and that nothing was wrong with them. But they still replaced the number 1 HT lead as I said I saw it tracking. So I'm not sure what's happening there, but either way the engine is missing at idle just as bad as it ever has, so I'm not any closer to having my new car run like a new car should :

I've decided to give up and just accept that I've got a new car that idle's like poo :

[RedStar71]

Man that sucks Tripe! Cannot believe they didn't fix your Fiesta! Like I said mine is better but not 100% so I'll see if it goes down hill again.
I personally cannot understand why if they re-calibrate the engine software the car runs perfect untill the adaptive software kicks in. After it adjusts itself it misfires???!! I hope that when I get it custom chipped that they fix it then and I will also go with another brand of leads. Anyone know of any out there at the moment?
I must say that mine even sounded better as she was driven up to me. And when I first got in her I thought the ignition was off as she was so quiet inside and smooth. Hope it stays that way...
Mine goes back to Southside probably next week for the bodykit to be fixed (small cracks fixed) and the ST wing install.

[RedStar71]

Okay as of today I can tell you that Ford replacing the plugs didn't fix the car at all. The misfire is back just like before and that is after it had a great run today down to the Gold Coast. While I was down there I spoke to Chiptorque about a custom ECU and possible Turbo conversion..... Aparently someone in Townsville has done it already! Would love to see that car move! Chiptorque believes that they could get another 10% out of my car by remapping after just doing cold air induction and exhaust mods. I'll see how that goes after the ST parts...
But anyway the rusty plugs are not the problem as far as I am concerned!

[chown]

true i am from tville but i havnt seen any good looking fez's besides mine:Phaha i would like toi see it lol

[RedStar71]

Tripe just came up with this info from the Magnacore site and I think it is what is the problem! It sounds dead on to me! My Fiesta was missing badly today with the rain and I bet if I check it tomorrow there will be moisture in there....

Technical Bulletin 019701, dated 1/97, revised 11/97

Ford Escort GT
Mazda MX3, MX5 Miata, Protege, 323
Mercury Capri, Tracer LTS
and other cars ...
(Mazda 1.6 and 1.8 liter 16 valve DOHC engines)

We have recently identified some problem areas of the above engines, in regards to poor design of the factory spark plug wire connectors and valve cover assemblies, as well as spark plug wire fitting problems. In our opinion, this problem is so serious, that many of the driveablility and spark plug wire problems that owners encounter, including hesitation and misses, can be directly attributed to the hostile environment in which the wires operate, and specifically to moisture accumulating in the deep un-drained spark plug holes.

We have found that these engines are all prone to moisture accumulating over spark plugs and the bottom of the spark plug connectors attached to the ignition wires. This problem is possibly caused by the design of the valve covers, which do not keep moisture out, and the design of the factory spark plug connectors that do not provide sufficient sealing — although, because the connector top seals are vented, better sealing may not help in areas (usually by the sea) where heavy condensation forms during the cooling down process over engines and inside covered spark plug holes.

The presence of moisture causes sparks to track (inside the connector) from the metal spark plug top, down the outside of the spark plug's porcelain insulator (under the connector's bottom seal) to eventually ground out into the moisture. This problem is exacerbated by the spark finding it easier to track down the outside of a wet spark plug in preference to firing the spark plug gap — usually because of an excessive (or worn) spark plug gap, failing spark plug or high chamber combustion pressures. Magnecor wires can sometimes make this problem worse if the connector is not correctly connected, since more spark energy (compared to factory carbon resistance wires) flows through Magnecor wires.

Once moisture accumulates, it remains around the spark plugs (it can’t drain away), as generally, the engine's temperature will not entirely evaporate the water because the same vented connector top seal that was ineffective in keeping water and moisture in the air out, is very effective in preventing evaporation of the moisture inside. The problem is further exacerbated if oil is leaking from valve covers and mixing with the moisture (another problem with older cars).

The problem is mostly noticed by the engine hesitating or missing when under load (particularly at low speeds), and is usually not apparent immediately after new wires are fitted. The usual diagnosis by unknowledgeable dealers and/or technicians is: "bad wires." The usual remedy is to replace the wires with a new set, which solves the problem if the wires are fitted correctly, although the remedy is only temporary if wires are again not fitted correctly and the moisture is not removed from the spark plug tunnels, or again accumulates around the spark plugs.

A moisture accumulation problem can be temporarily solved by simply applying silicone grease to the inside of the spark plug connectors' bottom seals, and replacing the seals if car has been driven for some time with the problem occurring, or at worst, replacing the individual wire if there is evidence of arcing (white marks) around the bottom seal. Apart from correct fitting, future problems can be reduced by applying silicone grease to the inside of the bottom seals (or preferably directly to the outside of the spark plug insulators themselves) at regular intervals. However, take into account the silicone grease will eventually run out of the seals down the hot spark plug insulators. To reduce the number of moisture accumulation occurrences, all water and oil should be removed from inside the spark plug holes and especially from around the spark plugs themselves whenever ignition wires are removed.

We recommend inspection of wires for moisture and oil at least once a year (preferably before winter), or more often. Sometimes moisture can be seen as a yellow or white discoloring of the spark plug connector bottom seal which fits over the spark plug (see photograph, below). However, evidence of moisture is not always obvious to the untrained eye — therefore we recommend that owners accept that moisture will inevitably accumulate from time to time — more so if you drive in rainy or humid areas, or live near the sea where heavy condensation forms over the engine (usually at night as the engine cools down). The presence of oil will be obvious, and should be cleaned off connectors before any silicone grease is added.

Magnecor, like other wire manufacturers, does not take responsibility for problems caused by engine design, inadequate engine servicing or incorrect fitting of wires. However, if your Magnecor wires are damaged by incorrect fitting and moisture accumulation problems, we can usually repair wires sent to us. Magnecor has made efforts to redesign the wires to help overcome these problems, and redesigned wires are now being sold to our customers.

With proper attention a set of Magnecor wires should never wear out on this engine, as long as the preceding procedures are followed.

Please call your dealer, or Magnecor, if you have any questions.
Please feel free to contact Magnecor if you have any feedback, we are always interested in your comments.


Evidence of moisture accumulation will sometimes be seen at bottom of spark plug connectors as rusty colored or white sediment left on the connectors. This example (above) of a wire from a Mazda shows rusty colored sediments.

Spark plug hole (below) shows evidence of sediment (will also be evident at bottom of hole). With original connectors removed, moisture can often be seen on spark plug porcelain if a light is shined down the hole.

Click here for another photograph of a problem wire (from a Ford Taurus SHO) showing white sediments, and also demonstrating oil leakage.

[The Mighty Red]

Man the spark plug in my 30 year old Victa looks a lot healthier than that .

How did the hole get there?

[GROOV3]

http://groups.msn.com/groov3/manifold.msnw?Page=Last

have a look at the pics i just took, these are my plugs, 3rd and 4th are the worst 1st and 2nd arent nearly as bad

Wow Groov3!!! I'm surprised at the state of your motor, it's very disturbing! You must have a very rough idle. I would advise to leave it all dirty and book it into Ford ASAP. Get them to remove the plastic cover and clean the engine properly, replace your plugs AND leads as they would have to be stuffed! Then, they should try and fix the moisture (more like flood of water)problem somehow... perhaps drilling breather holes in the plastic engine cover somewhere?

It looks look you've been driving that Fiesta in the Ocean!! lol. My motor and plugs never looked even half that bad, I would be mega peeved if my motor looked like that :sm_headba

This is obviously a major fault with the vehicle, I'm guessing that a lot of moisture comes from when the water run off from the windscreen runs down into the engine (via the passenger side wiper blade hole as per my previous post) and then it hits the exhaust manifold and creates a e load of steam if the engine is hot!! This steam rises up under the airbox and wafts around and gets sucked into the spark plug holes as they are vented??? Does this sound logical?? Either way it could be a number of things causing that much moisture - Ford needs to sort it out soon and stop fobbing us off :yeees:

[GROOV3]

my idle when cold is a little rough and sometimes its ok sometimes its a little rough but not often nothing major just decided to check as people were talking about it and yeah now not very happy :(